Battery voltage of V14 is 115V or 134V ?

[YCC]

Guys, I attached the spec of V14 as follow. Interestingly, I noticed that the difference voltage of battery and charger are 115.2V and 134.4 respectively. 

Further, the final charger-port seems to use the GX16-4P, screenshotted in the review of V14, however, the maximum rated current limit of GX16-4P is 7A. 

Therefore, the charger ports are unable to support charging current of 16A. 
 

Edited December 11, 2023 by YCC

[techyiam]

15 minutes ago, YCC said:

I noticed that the difference voltage of battery and charger are 115.2V and 134.4 respectively. 

Simple answer. You will see that for their other wheels too.

The 134.4 V is the maximum charging voltage.

The 115.2 V is the nominal voltage.

The nominal voltage for the Samsung cell is 3.6 V.

32 x 4.2 V (max. charging voltage) = 134.4 V

32 x 3.6 V (nominal cell voltage) = 115.2 V

[YCC]

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Simple answer. You will see that for their other wheels too.

The 134.4 V is the maximum charging voltage.

The 115.2 V is the nominal voltage.

The nominal voltage for the Samsung cell is 3.6 V.

32 x 4.2 V (max. charging voltage) = 134.4 V

32 x 3.6 V (nominal cell voltage) = 115.2 V

In respect of the charging voltage, all the wheels of 134V at the market means charging voltage is 134V, however, their battery voltage are only 115.2V. 

It is good to know.

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, YCC said:

In respect of the charging voltage, all the wheels of 134V at the market means charging voltage is 134V, however, their battery voltage are only 115.2V. 

It is good to know.

Well, you know, for other PEV's, you heard of 72 V battery systems.

20 cells x 3.6 V = 72 V  

20 cells x 4.2 V = 84 V   (not so for euc's)

 

[UniVehje]

The standard way is to use nominal voltage. For every other vehicle, tool or appliance this is the way voltage is marked. For EUCs the practice has become maximum charging voltage because one manufacturer started to use it to get bigger number on the spec sheet. Others had to follow to not appear smaller. Same with range. Everyone has to announce maximum range at 20 km/h riding without wind or hills because once someone starts using this kind of number, others will appear having less range. And this is the reason people confuse 18" and 20" wheels as being different size. Someone (Begode) just decided to deviate from standards to appear bigger. Be careful about spec sheet numbers and remember that many of the numbers aren't that important anyway. Wattage is also a nominal number and thus doesn't tell you much about real (peak) performance. And 3200 Wh and 3000 Wh batteries are the same size, just different way of rounding up. And suspension travel is often less when measured in real life. And it doesn't really matter what the voltage is anyway.

1 hour ago, YCC said:

Further, the final charger-port seems to use the GX16-4P, screenshotted in the review of V14, however, the maximum rated current limit of GX16-4P is 7A. 

Therefore, the charger ports are unable to support charging current of 16A. 

Good point. Two ports should then only support 14A. Rated limit is often conservative but still important to have this correct in specs. I don't know about this charger port but I do know that even 14A is pretty fast. Just a couple of years ago 5A charging was considered very fast. 

[YCC]

16 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Good point. Two ports should then only support 14A. Rated limit is often conservative but still important to have this correct in specs. I don't know about this charger port but I do know that even 14A is pretty fast. Just a couple of years ago 5A charging was considered very fast. 

Ironically, most the wheel of 134V charging voltage at the market used GX20-4pin charger port, like the charger port of Ex30 and Master.

However, I have no idea why Inmotion V14 decide to use charger port of GX16- 4pin, which the rated current of GX16 is smaller than GX20.

Edited December 12, 2023 by YCC

[alcatraz]

I don't think you'll be limited by the port but from the charging circuit. If you try to push too much current it will shut off.

There are mods you can make to the charge port to have it take more current like attaching positive and negative to two pins each (maybe they're already). But that only works if the port is the bottle neck which as mentioned usually isn't the case today.

[YCC]

43 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

I don't think you'll be limited by the port but from the charging circuit. If you try to push too much current it will shut off.

There are mods you can make to the charge port to have it take more current like attaching positive and negative to two pins each (maybe they're already). But that only works if the port is the bottle neck which as mentioned usually isn't the case today.

That is a good point. I am of opinion that is the safety issue of the charger port. However, I am able to change the charger port as you mentioned to make 16A charging current more safer. Safety is what I concerned.

[alcatraz]

Ok. I wasn't referring to the charger but the bmss. There's a charger shutoff circuit that won't like too many amps.

[alcatraz]

The best you can do without modding the wheel, is to have a variable amperage charger and set it to just below the cutoff limit. If that should be over 6-7A then ensure that you are indeed using multiple pins in the connector if you're only using one cable. Then there's the gauge on the internal cables. It's best to have a look if noone else has done this before.

[Seba]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:46 AM, UniVehje said:

The standard way is to use nominal voltage. For every other vehicle, tool or appliance this is the way voltage is marked. For EUCs the practice has become maximum charging voltage because one manufacturer started to use it to get bigger number on the spec sheet. Others had to follow to not appear smaller.

Specifying nominal voltage is standard in those applications where battery capacity in Ah is specified. This is because the capacity expressed in Ah does not by itself determine the true capacity of the battery. Only multiplying the nominal voltage by the capacity expressed in Ah gives us the true battery capacity expressed in watt-hours. In our case, it's different - we use watt-hours, so we're more comfortable using a voltage that corresponds to a fully charged battery and is equal to the charger's output voltage at rest and is a multiply of 4.2V and serially connected cell groups count. Usingt 4.2V as a full charge voltage is common, while nominal voltage per cell varies. So for us, the nominal battery voltage has no meaning and no application. It doesn't even correspond to 50% of the battery's capacity as no wheels are using the 2.5V level as the 0% of battery level.

[techyiam]

20 minutes ago, Seba said:

Only multiplying the nominal voltage by the capacity expressed in Ah gives us the true battery capacity expressed in watt-hours. In our case, it's different - we use watt-hours, so we're more comfortable using a voltage that corresponds to a fully charged battery and is equal to the charger's output voltage at rest and is a multiply of 4.2V and serially connected cell groups count. Usingt 4.2V as a full charge voltage is common, while nominal voltage per cell varies. So for us, the nominal battery voltage has no meaning and no application. It doesn't even correspond to 50% of the battery's capacity as no wheels are using the 2.5V level as the 0% of battery level.

After an euc is fully charged, and a rider take it out for a ride, even if the rider starts out with the maximum charge voltage of 4.2 V per cell, it would not stay their long. Hence, the 4.2 V is over-representing the working voltage of the battery.

If we take the maximum charge cell voltage to be 4.2 V, and the depleted cell voltage to be 3.2 V for the cells in the battery (the average discharge cut-off voltage per cell in the battery, not the 2.5V absolute discharge cut-off voltage for every cell), then using a nominal voltage to be either 3.6 V or 3.7 V is reasonable. The battery cannot be allowed to go lower than 3.2 V per cell, because that is only the only the average voltage per cell in the battery. Some cells would be lower and some cells would be higher. This extra margin is used in order to ensure no cells in the battery would go below 2.5 V for example for a Samsung 50E cell.

Edited December 15, 2023 by techyiam

[null]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

then using a nominal voltage to be either 3.6 V or 3.7 V is reasonable.

I don't see the practicality in referring to a voltage that represents about 40-50% of usable scale, which varies between cells and EUCs, while we have the top number which are always about the same and is used to verify chargers and batteries. Nominal is used for certain calculations, other than that.. Anyhow, with Seba here 

(edit: Glad we use Wh as it so much handier to quantify energy rather that using Ah which doesn't mean anything on its own)

edit 2: Im not engaging any further, no point in repeating things. Just a point: when I use a multimeter to verify a battery or a charger it (hopefully) displays max voltage, not nominal. In fact except for some Wh calculation nominal is never of use to me. As for you calling your preference "truer" or "honest".....

Edited December 15, 2023 by null

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, null said:

which are always about the same and is used to verify chargers and batteries.

As for chargers and batteries, don't see how it is any worse.

e-bikes, and scooters still use 36V, 48V, and 72V, and etc classification. I haven't heard of anyone getting confused with batteries and chargers yet.

Go to Amazon.com or Aliexprees.com.

Why called it 84 V when the rest of the PEV world call it a 72 V system.

Which is more confusing, 36 V or 42 V battery, or battery charger?

3 hours ago, null said:

I don't see the practicality in referring to a voltage that represents about 40-50% of usable scale,

The nominal voltage is the average of the usable range.

With a 84 V system, when I check my voltage once I have started riding, it is always below 84 V.

If the nominal voltage is used, my voltage is about half the time above and half the time below.

It's called honesty, or truer representation.

[Seba]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I haven't heard of anyone getting confused with batteries and chargers yet.

This thread has started from such a confusion

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Why called it 84 V when the rest of the PEV world call it a 72 V system.

Because it outputs 84 V, not 72 V.

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Seba said:

This thread has started from such a confusion

The context in which confusion was brought up has to do with buying a charger or battery.

In any case, it was the dishonesty of using the maximum charging voltage for system voltage classification that creating confusion.

3 hours ago, Seba said:

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Why called it 84 V when the rest of the PEV world call it a 72 V system.

Because it outputs 84 V, not 72 V.

The output is a usable range between 64 V to 84 V, of which 72 V is one of the outputs.

[YCC]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:13 AM, techyiam said:

The context in which confusion was brought up has to do with buying a charger or battery.

In any case, it was the dishonesty of using the maximum charging voltage for system voltage classification that creating confusion.

The output is a usable range between 64 V to 84 V, of which 72 V is one of the outputs.

I agree your point. All the EUC manufactory only announced the charging voltage instead of nominal voltage, except the Inmotion announced both kinds of voltage. Therefore, I think Inmotion is the one who is real honest for its spec of product.

[YCC]

The nominal voltage of V14, EX30, Extreme, Master, Commander Pro, Commander Mini, Commander GT are all 115.2V.

Likewise, the charging voltage of V14, EX30, Master, Extreme, Commander Pro, Commander Mini, Commander GT are all 134.4V. 
 

However, all the EUC manufactory only announced their voltage of wheel are 134.4V, which means charging voltage. Only Inmotion announced both voltage, which nominal voltage of V14 is 115.2V and charging voltage of V14 is134.4V.