Experiencing first pedal dip/overlean.

[Funky]

So, i think i experienced my first pedal dip/overlean.  

I was goofing off going over small curbs.. And suddenly my pedals dipped, it felt like when you are walking and you suddenly trip over something. 

Luckily i was going about 15km/h speed and noticed it in time and didn't fall. I caught myself in time. (Recovered balance on euc.)

Then i opened EUC world and checked stats.. My current was 37.1v, motor power 2666, battery around 78V. So i think it was a pedal dip/overlean?

Edited June 30, 2023 by Funky

[Punxatawneyjoe]

6 minutes ago, Funky said:

My current was 37.1v

Amps maybe? What your describing sounds like an over lean but the numbers don't seem excessive. The 16xl has a 4,000w peak so i would think it could handle 2666. I could be wrong though. I'm sure someone with much more experience with these things will chime in. The only experience i have is overpowering the v13 a few days ago while emergency braking. It gave up a little right at the end but i quickly let up and it was fine. I was really going for it though, hanging way of the back while pulling on the front handle.

[Funky]

32 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Amps maybe? What your describing sounds like an over lean but the numbers don't seem excessive. The 16xl has a 4,000w peak so i would think it could handle 2666. I could be wrong though. I'm sure someone with much more experience with these things will chime in. The only experience i have is overpowering the v13 a few days ago while emergency braking. It gave up a little right at the end but i quickly let up and it was fine. I was really going for it though, hanging way of the back while pulling on the front handle.

ECU world says current, same thing amps.. I never have gone over 31amps, first time hitting 37amps. That's why i think there where the pedal dip.. As i could feel the pedals let loose.. Dipping in front making me fall forwards.

[level9]

You probably overpowered it. I believe EUCWorld sampling rate is ~500 milliseconds and a lot can happen in 500 milliseconds that will be missing from the data log...

[Funky]

1 hour ago, level9 said:

You probably overpowered it. I believe EUCWorld sampling rate is ~500 milliseconds and a lot can happen in 500 milliseconds that will be missing from the data log...

Doh when i overpower the wheel. Usually kingsong alarm kicks in and says "overpower, please slow down" or something in those lines. This time - nothing.

Simple 1 second pedal dip.. Scary thing when you realize you are falling forwards.  Luckily wheel regained balancing, accelerated and caught me. 

[rcgldr]

I think the fuses on the 18XL add up to 60 amps, and with a 120 cell 20S6P pack, 60 amps shouldn't be an issue for the battery pack unless the state of charge was low. Even the S18 with just 60 cells, the fuses still add up to 60 amps. The V8F has a 40 cell 20S2P pack, 30 amp fuse, 1000 watt motor, and riders have reported current peaks a bit above 30 amps, but the reported current from a V8F is higher than battery pack current, based on average current x riding time versus charge current x charge time, and I don't know what the reported current is based on.

[Funky]

12 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

I think the fuses on the 18XL add up to 60 amps, and with a 120 cell 20S6P pack, 60 amps shouldn't be an issue for the battery pack unless the state of charge was low. Even the S18 with just 60 cells, the fuses still add up to 60 amps. The V8F has a 40 cell 20S2P pack, 30 amp fuse, 1000 watt motor, and riders have reported current peaks a bit above 30 amps, but the reported current from a V8F is higher than battery pack current, based on average current x riding time versus charge current x charge time, and I don't know what the reported current is based on.

20S6P??? or 20S3P? (Or are you counting both pack together.)  

20x3=60cells? At least i think it was 3P.. I don't know really.  (All i know it has 60 cells per pack. So it should be 20S3P.) Fuses are rated at 30A, but as they use 2, i figure they are combined to 60A.

I generally thought, if i go over 30A - i'm already in danger zone..

Edited June 30, 2023 by Funky

[level9]

21 minutes ago, Funky said:

Doh when i overpower the wheel. Usually kingsong alarm kicks in and says "overpower, please slow down" or something in those lines. This time - nothing.

 

i've overpowered my KS wheels without any alarms a number of times. I can even reliably get it to drop my bluetooth/phone connection when I push the limit on the S22.
Once there is no more power left, things can go wonky. My suspicion is the firmware code is written to try and maintain power in a priority order with attempting to maintain balance being the highest (as opposed to running bluetooth, sounding alarms, etc.). So, if there is a sudden power spike big enough, there won't be anything left for an alarm, data log sample, etc.

 

 

[rcgldr]

22 minutes ago, Funky said:

20S6P??? or 20S3P?

It's an 84 volt system, so 20S6P means 6 cells in parallel in each group (otherwise it would be 40S3P at 168 volts). I mentioned the V8F, because it is also 84 volts, but only 40 cells, 20S2P, 2 cells in each group with a 30 amp fuse, so max current of 15 amps per cell. With a 20S6P pack, peak pack current would be 90 amps, but the limitation is in the controller board, which may be the same board as 18L (20S4P) or S18 (20S3P), so 60 amps. 

V10F has a relatively low fuse of 40 amps despite having 80 cells (20S4P) versus V8F's 40 cells (20S2P) and a 30 amp fuse. I've read that V10F controller board isn't much different than V8F controller board, which is the reason for the relatively low fuse, and only being 3 mph faster than V8F. V10F has 2000 watt nominal motor, but peak power is around 2600 watts, much less than other EUCs with 2000 watt motors and 20S4P packs.

I've never had a pedal dip on my V8F. I once got a mild tilt back at around 17 mph GPS on a mild (2 degree incline), with battery around 30%, but looking at the stats, both peak current and peak power were not close to max, so it was probably a speed related warning that occurs at about 1 mph less than the speed it will beep at. I've never had the V8F beep at me.

Edited June 30, 2023 by rcgldr

[Funky]

13 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

It's an 84 volt system, so 20S6P means 6 cells in parallel in each group (otherwise it would be 40S3P at 168 volts). I mentioned the V8F, because it is also 84 volts, but only 40 cells, 20S2P, 2 cells in each group with a 30 amp fuse, so max current of 15 amps per cell. With a 20S6P pack, peak pack current would be 90 amps, but the limitation is in the controller board, which may be the same board as 18L (20S4P) or S18 (20S3P), so 60 amps. 

Yes but how you get the 20S6P? You are talking about pack. Single pack.. I think 18xl has 3 cell parallel. Or are talking about both packS combined. (IT still doesn't change that pack has 20S3P.)

Quick google search even says 20S3P packs. I'm confused.  That would make each pack 10 cell 6 parallel... < What you're saying.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Funky

[rcgldr]

3 minutes ago, Funky said:

Yes but how you get the 20S6P?

The single packs are connected in parallel, so the net result is equivalent to a 20S6P pack. 

[Funky]

7 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

The single packs are connected in parallel, so the net result is equivalent to a 20S6P pack. 

So it's 20 cell in 3 groups per pack right? (20x3) Making ONE pack 20S3P. But having 2 packs makes it 20S6P.  

I was talking about one pack.. You where talking about both packs..

You where saying "pack" as in single number. I was saying "packs". I count each pack separately. First world problems... 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Funky

[rcgldr]

4 minutes ago, Funky said:

So it's 20 cell in 3 groups per pack right? (20x3) Making ONE pack 20S3P. But having 2 packs makes it 20S6P.  

I was talking about one pack.. You where talking about both packs..

You where saying "pack" as in single number. I was saying "packs". I count each pack separately. First world problems... 

True, but I would assume that 31 amps was the total draw from both packs in parallel, so 15.5 amps per pack. Maybe the 18XL reports current per single pack as opposed to total current for both packs?

[Funky]

12 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

True, but I would assume that 31 amps was the total draw from both packs in parallel, so 15.5 amps per pack. Maybe the 18XL reports current per single pack as opposed to total current for both packs?

Dam.. Now i don't know.. Doh when i rechecked EUC world (after posting..) It showed max amps ~39. You mean 37, not 31 (Dip happened at 37amps. I normally was getting 31amps, never over it before..) But after that "dip" i didn't have second one. My guess both pack combined?

I think the pedal dip happened - because i bumped on the small curb.. But actually why it happened idk.. All i know the pedals dipped pretty hard.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

So generally speaking i should be fine riding till ~50,~55 Amps..? If wheel has 60Amps fuse? (Aside of low battery, sag, etc..)

I thought my wheel was limited till 30Amps.   2 years latter learned that i can ride harder..  Talking about this: max current.

 

Also i know my wheel has rated peak 4000W motor. And "sustained" rated at 2200W.

 How bad is it? That my motor is going in 2800W-3000W often while riding? Should i worry about that? Should i try to stay under 2200W? How long can it handle anything over 2200W..?

I just want to know how hard i can push my wheel... And set according safety alarms.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Funky

[level9]

37 minutes ago, Funky said:

 How bad is it? That my motor is going in 2800W-3000W often while riding? Should i worry about that? Should i try to stay under 2200W? How long can it handle anything over 2200W..?

 

That's fine. You're unlikely maintaining >2200W for very long. It's designed for this. I ride my EUCs over the rated sustained limit all of the time. You can always check in EUCWorld CVS logs for duration if concerned.

Do you have safety margin calculation in the 18XL in EUC World? That's what I would pay attention to. Available power is always variable.. rider weight, wind resistance, remaining voltage, etc. I alarm at 15% to leave headroom for hitting potholes, bumps, etc.

[Funky]

1 minute ago, level9 said:

That's fine. You're unlikely maintaining >2200W for very long. It's designed for this. I ride my EUCs over the rated sustained limit all of the time. You can always check in EUCWorld CVS logs for duration if concerned.

Do you have safety margin calculation in the 18XL in EUC World? That's what I would pay attention to. Available power is always variable.. rider weight, wind resistance, remaining voltage, etc. I alarm at 15% to leave headroom for hitting potholes, bumps, etc.

I have set mine at 20%. Lowest i had ever gone was 13%, when i was doing 1-20 speed runs.. (Trying to trigger overpower alarm.) Normal rides stay around 25-30%. Meaning haven't hit once the 20% alarm. Even when i think i'm pushing it! It stays above 25%. 

Simply not accelerating fast does the trick.

[level9]

That's reasonable. It's a little surprising to get a pedal dip going that slow and with safety margins set that high but I mainly ride suspension wheels (which will dampen the power spike) and I don't hit curbs on the non-suspension wheels, so perhaps still possible...

[mrelwood]

 

On 6/30/2023 at 3:28 PM, Funky said:

I was goofing off going over small curbs.. And suddenly my pedals dipped

I haven’t personally experienced the Big Dipper at faster than like 5km/h speeds, but I can imagine that it’s a startling experience. Glad you didn’t crash!

The maximum power is not available at all speeds, only at 50% of the no-load speed. So something like 37km/h. At a 15km/h overlean the power won’t be even close to the maximum possible.

 But I would expect the currents to be higher for an actual overlean. And safety margin should be 0%. Is it possible that you bonked the curb and took some air? Or maybe it was reminiscent of the angle flick known from the 16X? That shouldn’t happen at those speeds either though.

 

On 6/30/2023 at 3:59 PM, Punxatawneyjoe said:

overpowering the v13 a few days ago while emergency braking. It gave up a little right at the end

The V13 has very strong stall current limits, so that it wouldn’t fry the board of the tire got stuck. I’ve seen it a few times in a video, if you keep braking hard on the V13, the current limiters kick in at the end and you will overlean the new lower limits.

 

On 6/30/2023 at 8:00 PM, rcgldr said:

only being 3 mph faster than V8F.

V10F top speed is 45km/h / 28mph (with the correct settings), making it a 10km/h / 6.3mph difference.

 

[alcatraz]

On my gotway wheels, shocks and vibrations make the pedals dip forward. Like they mess up the gyro. Don't know if this happens on Kingsong. 

[Funky]

32 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

On my gotway wheels, shocks and vibrations make the pedals dip forward. Like they mess up the gyro. Don't know if this happens on Kingsong. 

Maybe.. But i have driven over small curbs many times before..

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

I haven’t personally experienced the Big Dipper at faster than like 5km/h speeds, but I can imagine that it’s a startling experience. Glad you didn’t crash!

The maximum power is not available at all speeds, only at 50% of the no-load speed. So something like 37km/h. At a 15km/h overlean the power won’t be even close to the maximum possible.

No air - nothing. Only thing i notice by looking at EUC World was that i first time have gone over 31amps. (37amps.) After the dip happened. Rest stats where in spec following "my" normal ride stats. (I imagine the 37amps happened because of me falling forwards and wheel accelerating pretty fast to catch me.) If we look that way.. IDK what happened.  

Only thing i know, it happened right the moment i hit the small curb (2 finger high curb.) Which i have driven over many times.. Me feet went like ballerina for slit second.  

I also was turning left right after i was over the curb. 

Looks like we will not know what happened.

One thing i also notice - wheel "felt" kind OFF... I don't know how to describe it, but ridding afterwards it felt kind of different.. Like something isn't right. Placebo effect?

Edited July 2, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

31 minutes ago, Funky said:

ridding afterwards it felt kind of different.. Like something isn't right.

Trust was gone?

[Funky]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Trust was gone?

Nah.. Like motor was @Funky. 

In my mind EUC and falling comes hand to hand.. It's one wheeled device. At some point it will break and make us crash anyways.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Funky

[rcgldr]

11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

V10F top speed is 45km/h / 28mph (with the correct settings), making it a 10km/h / 6.3mph difference.

What settings? V10F has a 40 amp fuse on a 20S4P pack (10 amps per cell) 2000 watt motor, versus 18L with the equivalent of a 60 amp fuse on a 20S4P pack (15 amps per cell) with 2000 watt or 2200 watt motor (assuming the later 18L's got the motor update), versus V8F with 30 amp fuse on a 20S2P pack (15 amps per cell) with 1000 watt nominal motor.

There was some video that mentioned V8F and V10F share similar controller boards, which is a limiting factor for V10F. V10F uses or at least did use the same MH1 cells as V8, (not V8F MJ1 cells). On a fully charged V10F pack at 84 volts, the voltage sag at 40 amps results in about 73 volts, peak power about 2920 watts, and I read somewhere it's more like 2750 watts at the motor. I don't know what cell 18L uses, but using MJ1 as reference, fully charged pack at 84 volts, voltage sag at 60 amp results in about 71 volts, peak power about 4250 watts, while specs claim about 4000 watts.

I'd be concerned about V10F at 28 mph versus 18L. 18XL is supposed to have a max of 30 or 31 mph.

Edited July 2, 2023 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

50 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

What settings?

Ride mode (Commuter/Off-Roading, called Comfort/Classic in older firmwares) and pedal hardness.

I don’t know what the exact requirements for the V10F are, but for example the V13 can only go 90km/h if the pedal hardness is above 50%. At 0% the top speed is around 55km/h. Marty & co found out about this after their misunderstanding of the hardness setting…

Edit: I tried to search for confirmation for the 45km/h speed on the V10F, but it seems that it was actually a feature that could only be unlocked with the DarknessBot app. I recall my friend having found that the unlock would be lowered to 40km/h with some settings.

Edited July 2, 2023 by mrelwood