Need help getting my Airwheel S5 plus to work / start up

[Innovator]

Hi , as the title suggests I need help with getting my new S5 to start up. I bought it second hand but this S5 has seen no action it has the new  beefy tyres and looks better than my other older version. This being said, it does not power up at all. I was hoping to set the 2 side by side and check the working one and compare it to the new one. But I discovered the 2 are different. Turns out the new one is a S5 plus  and my working one is a “ordinary“ S5.  I bought this new one as a not working unit in the hopes I can fix it. 
what I discovered was the on off switch was disconnected, and after fixing this it powers on when pushing the A button directly after putting power to it (using the on off switch) it makes the lights flash (headlights rear lights and display) for half a second. Pushing button B makes a clicking noise(relay) 2x when Clicking B 2 x, clicking B after that has no effect.  
I really hope there is someone here that can help me fix this awesome piece of kit.

Thanks, Chris.

[mrelwood]

While I’m not familiar with the internals of the S5 in particular, similar issues on all self-balancing vehicles seem to be most commonly either because of battery voltage being too low, or fried mainboard mosfets. The latter is easy to check: if either of the tires rotate stiffly with a stepped feel to it, it’s probably the mosfets.

Battery voltage though might require more investigating. How does the S5 react to a charger? Does the charger LED turn red for charging? Can you connect to the S5 with an app while it’s connected to a charger?

If the charger stays green when connected, the wheel isn’t charging. In that case your only bet might be to disassemble the wheel so you can carefully measure the battery voltage.

[Innovator]

Thanks for the tips! I will have a look at the mosfets and check if they are okay. It puzzles me,  I checked the voltage on the battery and it’s 64.5v  it’s a original with 680Wh. I connected the charger and it does not turn red when plugged in. The battery would be new / unused  as is the s5 plus. I decided to place this battery into my old S5 this has currently a new battery but it’s a 59 volt 520Wh (as I was told by a Airwheel dealer that 520Wh is the maximum capacity going from 2020 onwards.)  I do not like the idea of reducing the capacity from 680 to 520 as it will impact the range and power.  But here comes the weird part, my new low capacity battery currently has 51V and starts up the old S5 just fine. But when placing the new battery with 64.5v it does not power up at all and when trying to charge it, it does not charge so I am guessing that there may be something wrong with the connection terminals. Very weird, as this battery does try to start the new S5 plus (although it trips the relays and lights up red leds on the several boards.  I really want to get this new Segway to work, the seller says it has a bad motherboard. I will keep updating this thread and post the solution when I find it so it can hopefully help others with similar problems.   I appreciate the tips and suggestions! Have a nice day! Chris. 

[mrelwood]

2 minutes ago, Innovator said:

59 volt 520Wh

Am I getting this right: The old battery says 59V on the battery itself? What does it say on the new battery?

 If the batteries have different design voltage, YOU CAN’T SWAP THEM AROUND!! You can very easily fry a board or in the worst case cause a violent li-ion fire.

 Anyway, 64.5V is well past a 59V system’s safety margins, so I’m not at all surprised that it doesn’t power up. Hopefully you didn’t destroy the old mainboard along the way.

[Chriull]

A 64.5V battery makes no sense with li ion. That is very likely neither nominal nor max voltage.

The 59V battery could be nominal voltage. Or some special charging to lower final voltage? Or not cells used as in EUCs?

Such discussions in the euc part of the forum could be "dangerous" as euc normally state max voltages for batteries.

So i move this to the "Segway or equivalent" forum...

[mrelwood]

58.8V would be the maximum of a 14s pack, or it could be a nominal of a 67.2V (max) pack.

Edited June 10, 2023 by mrelwood

[Innovator]

Hi, the battery’s are both original airwheel batteries  for the s5. The voltage is originally 67.2v and the charger is that too. The new replacement battery that Airwheel sold me has a sticker on it saying  58.8V 520Wh, so I guess it would be the maximum of a 14s pack.  The Airwheel representative (official dealer) told me that although originally the S5 comes equipped with a 67.2V 680Wh they now only offer the 58.8V 520Wh that is normally for the smaller S3 variant.  So I do not think the battery will fry my board as it is designed to take the 67.2v.  The new second hand 67.2v 680Wh battery is made at the end of 2019, so it would be the newest 680Wh battery pack that would be available for sale as Airwheel stopped making them from 2020 onwards. 
I find it a strange thing that I get a replacement battery of lower capacity to replace the original, but no word being said about needing a different charger. The brand new 520Wh has fully charged and displays somewhere in the 60’s v on the display. (I do not have access to them at this moment so I can not give exact voltages now)

I had a 67.2V 680Wh battery in my old S5 but this battery has no more range left in it , no more than a few miles max. That battery has a date on it from 2014. I will try to maybe see if I can swap the cells to make 1 good pack as I suspect there is something wrong with the (second hand) new pack that came with my S5 plus. There are tell tale signs the previous owner has been fiddling around the connector, but seen as it is part of the 5S plus  that literally looks unused I suspect the cells inside are good but the connection or BMS  has a problem.  I will keep you updated about the progress. 

[Innovator]

Update: On startup after fully charging the first time it displays 65.7v  but it is the 58.8v  battery in it! So it is delivering substantially more than the 58.8v the sticker shows.

I hope this does not destroy my battery (€350) it does make me wonder if I need to go get a downgraded charger to fit the lower capacity battery. This is very annoying to buy a official battery for the s5 and receiving a substantially lower capacity battery for a premium price, and potentially being a fire hazard due to overvoltage charging. I do not know what to think about this situation. It’s bizar to think I invest in the biggest most expensive model airwheel Segway with a large capacity battery for long range travel and power enough for a little off road riding, but when wanting the original specs replacement they downgrade me and I need to potentially pay extra for a charger. 

[mrelwood]

13 minutes ago, Innovator said:

a fire hazard due to overvoltage charging.

This. I guess you learned that the batteries are of different voltage only after you charged the new battery with the old charger. On EUCs there are safety precautions in place that would stop the charging well before the batteries get to dangerous levels, but obviously the Airwheel battery doesn’t. 65.7V on a 58.8V battery averages 4.7V per cell, which is already at “run!” levels of fire risk. I’m actually surprised that they haven’t ignited yet. Either way, if it really has currently 65.7V on a 58.8V max battery pack,

 ONLY STORE THE BATTERY IN A PLACE WHERE IT CAN SAFELY IGNITE! A Li-ion fire is violent, and a mere fire blanket is near useless. We don’t want your house to burn down.

[Innovator]

So you would not advise me to charge this 520Wh 58.8v battery with the charger that came with the airwheel?  And what would you advise to do with the now over charged battery, drain it whilst riding it on even surface ?  And what if it catches fire, if a blanket does not work what will work?

[mrelwood]

A 58.8V battery can ONLY be charged with a 58.8V charger. The charger and battery must ALWAYS match. I don’t mean to be rude, but is this really news to you?

I personally wouldn’t have the guts to ride the battery at this state, since a discharge that fast can be fatal for the batteries and any braking would charge the battery even higher.

 If the battery was at my possession, I would store it outside in a place where it can freely create the fireworks (check YT), but where it’s also fully protected from rain. I would then connect a high wattage resistor over the battery cables to discharge it slowly and in a controlled manner, and keep checking the voltage often enough that it wouldn’t get too low.

 But purchasing a high wattage resistor and especially connecting it to the open ends of a volatile battery are expert moves, and I can’t recommend you to take them. Instead I would maybe power up the wheel and carefully leave it in a place outside where it has to balance itself but can’t run away. And turn on the headlight and all other peripherals it has. This can however take a full day or more for the voltage to drop enough.

[Innovator]

Thanks for the tips /advice  it is indeed news for me that the voltage must be exact the same as the voltage the sticker actually says “59.2V 8800 mAh 520Wh”  it’s a Dymo label that would probably be removed when selling the battery. I did ride it for 3km and the voltage did drop a bit, it’s now 63.9v. But the maximum speed was about 14km/h. I will now put this fire hazard in the garden and do as you advised with lights on and self balancing mode on and let it run down slowly. Hopefully this new battery pack has not taken any damage from this 67.2v charger.  
I have contacted the Airwheel service point where I purchased this battery from (specifically asking for a S5 battery) and asked him why they stopped making the original specs battery and in stead selling this very pricy underpowered fire hazard to me without at least warning me that it needs a lower voltage charger to match the voltage of the battery. After riding I expect that the top speed of 18kmh is now a thing of the past at least with this 520Wh battery. 
 
This may potentially have caused my beloved Segway to go up in a puff of smoke.  
I really hope Airwheel will see the need to at least give a charger with the lower capacity battery to keep things safe. I am not happy with the sneaky way they sold me a S3 battery for a S5. It’s that there is a sticker on the side of the battery otherwise I would have never known the voltage of this new battery as it is not stated anywhere on the battery (except for this unofficial Dymo sticker) I drove for more than 3.5 hours to pick it up and paid €350 for this battery. 

I really hope I can get this new S5 Plus working with a 67.2v 680Wh battery that is safe and reliable for long distances, with the ability to push me up any hills I may encounter on my way. Living in the south of the Netherlands there are many hills to get up and down.  
 

I will keep posting updates when I get any progress in fixing this S5 Plus in the hope some day it will help others fix theirs.  

Thanks for this great forum🙏
 

[chanman]

I think there's some confusion here between nominal voltage and charging voltage, fortunately I think there's no problems here. In EUC land we generally only talk about the charging voltage and don't use nominal voltage but nominal is still quite common in other devices and I think is what this battery was labeled with.

The 59.2v is a nominal voltage (3.7V per cell), meaning the pack is actually a 16S, with the 67.2V charging voltage at 4.2V per cell. You should be able to use the existing charger and battery you have and there's no fire risk @Innovator. It would be good to confirm with the manufacturer that the pack is a 16S but the math giving 59.2/3.7 = 16 exactly versus 59.2/4.2 = ~14.1 seems to back this up. You also can multiply the nominal voltage by the capacity to get the Wh, 59.2V*8.8Ah = ~520Wh suggesting this is a nominal voltage.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by chanman

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, Innovator said:

59.2V 8800 mAh 520Wh”

Seems to be a 59.2V nominal , 67.2V max battery.

But you and your reseller shozld know such things for sure instead if "just trying"...

[mrelwood]

I’m confused. You mentioned that the new battery voltage was 58.8V. That would point exactly towards a 14s battery. 59.2V indeed points to a 16s battery.

 Are there any labels on the old 680Wh battery?

[Innovator]

@Chanman I’m glad to hear there is no fire hazard with using the original charger. I am not a technician nearly a end consumer having done some electronic projects with DIY kits. Thanks for clearing that up! Have a great day!

@chriull as a end consumer one can not know everything😉 but I learnt a valuable lesson👍 thanks for confirming the nominal voltage thing! As a end user that’s why I went to a official dealer to purchase OEM parts. Have a great day!

@mrelwood the 58.8 volts was the voltage that the pack came with before charging it. They ship batteries with low charge to make the, safe as possible so I wanted to know what voltage it had. 

The new battery has the same sticker as the older ones but with no date and capacity on them.

As a rule do lithium ion battery packs get more resilient once they reach a X times full charge? Or should this new battery deliver a distance of many kilometres from the get go?
 

But there is for sure a problem with the battery I bought. I have now don 3 km(2 miles) yesterday on the fully charged battery and 1.7 KM today and the battery whilst riding was 2 bars  sometimes 1 bar.This can not be okay for a brand new battery I had the feeling I would not even make it to my home.  
It’s been a while that I last had a ride on this thing and it’s addictive, but there is a annoying thing about it, it pushes me back giving me the sensation of falling off. I can understand that there is a max speed that it does not want to exceed, but it does this at 14km/h  and keeps beeping / slowing down. It does not make this a relaxed ride. 
maybe there is a way to calibrate it so it stays level longer. But that is a concern for later. 
 

Thanks to everybody reacting to this topic! 
STAY SAFE, AND ENJOY THE RIDE!

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Innovator said:

As a rule do lithium ion battery packs get more resilient once they reach a X times full charge? Or should this new battery deliver a distance of many kilometres from the get go?

Li ion cells have no such thing like a "memory effect" or "formation needed". 

The are ready to go - the less charges, the better!

 

[Innovator]

Then there is for sure something seriously wrong with this new battery  it went from fully charged to nearly empty in less than 5km. They advertise 45km range (on a 680Wh) so I would guess a 520Wh should easily do 30km. The top speed is lower than it should be so I will ask the seller for a replacement. This 5km does just not do it for me.

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Innovator said:

@mrelwood the 58.8 volts was the voltage that the pack came with before charging it.

Sorry about the alarmist comments, I had misunderstood the voltages and labels between the packs. 58.8V just happened to be a 14s pack max voltage.  

(A 67.2V charger can only be used with a 67.2V (max) battery, but in many cases the battery label doesn’t say the max voltage, only the nominal voltage. Therefore a 59.2V (nominal) battery uses a 67.2V charger. I know it’s confusing…)
 

2 hours ago, Innovator said:

As a rule do lithium ion battery packs get more resilient once they reach a X times full charge?

While there is no memory effect, in some cases the range has increased a bit after a few full chargers. This is probably because of unbalanced cell group voltages that shouldn’t but still might exist in a new pack.

 In your case, didn’t the new battery only charge up to 65.7V? That’s a bit low for a 67.2V (max) battery. I would charge it to full, and keep the charger connected for a few hours, then let it rest overnight before riding. Then ride a bit and repeat the process. This is the most effective method of balancing the cell groups, short of disassembling the battery.

But only 5km of range? The battery could indeed be faulty.

 

2 hours ago, Innovator said:

it pushes me back giving me the sensation of falling off.

That’s the max speed limit tilt-back. It’s the only way a self-balancing vehicle can limit your speed. It gets lower s as the battery gets lower, which is probably why the new battery seems to do it sooner.

 The Airwheel A5 used to have an app that you can use to increase the top speed from 15 to 17km/h. But they have since removed that option. It also starts the tilt-back at 14km/h so that it would be more difficult to pass the 15km/h limit.

 

2 hours ago, Innovator said:

Zooming in on the battery labels, they both have a stamped Wh and date right after the “Airwheel” title. But they are both 680Wh! The new battery has a 2019 date which is quite old for a new battery. Even just small self discharge differences can ruin a pack in 4 years.

Edited June 12, 2023 by mrelwood

[Dan T]

Hello friends, I too have an S5 with charging problems. So much so, that it won’t charge at at, and riding it isn’t even an option.  It has enough “juice” to welcome me” but not enough to light the display. I’m in America, so I can only charge at 110V (not 220V like I think you do). Mine is also second hand, and I have all but written it off as a bad decision and pitch it out:(

im going to take it to a friend with electrical troubleshooting experience before I call it quits. So if you have any suggestions for me to try, I’m ready to listen 

Cheers

[mrelwood]

On 8/12/2023 at 11:14 PM, Dan T said:

It has enough “juice” to welcome me” but not enough to light the display.

Sounds like the battery voltage might’ve gotten too low. So much so that the BMS determines that it’s no longer safe to recharge. Li-ion cells change in chemistry if they drop below 2.5V, which makes them unsafe.

 You’re only chance might be if your friend has the capability to check the cell voltages and jump start the charging process. If not, out of any of the cells are below 2.5V, a new battery might be the only choice.

[FilipFilip]

Hello i have a problem my S3 airwheel doesn't hold vertical, it's probably a problem with the gyroscope but I'm not sure when I turned on my device and stood on it didn't want to go. Please help