Heavy one side leaning KS S18

[enaon]

4 minutes ago, WillCO said:

so I've picked up some proper id/od aluminum tubing to experiment with better spacing there.

yes nice idea, it is the same issue, the space allowed by the aluminum axle spacers, is also changing the angle the axis is touching the sliders. It may well be that if you solve the problem there, you won't have to use shims.

Edited December 25, 2021 by enaon

[enaon]

9 minutes ago, Aztek said:

No, not the short tubes on each axis's side which is clealry for facilitating tha central positioning of the rim.

There were washers on both sides over the axis between it and the upper of the two plates which compress it with four bolts on each side.

I've shown on the picture the place.

correct, this is mine from one side, the other only needed two shims. 
If tension is there, one side drag is normal even if you cannot see it, it could be that one side has more friction than the other. 

 

 

[Aztek]

3 minutes ago, enaon said:

this is mine from one side

Exactly!

Mine pulls to the right.

I just put one washer on the right side.

This should correct it, how do you think?

Edited December 25, 2021 by Aztek

[enaon]

6 minutes ago, Aztek said:

Exactly!

Mine pulls to the right.

I just put one washer on the right side.

This should correct it, how do you think?

It will only make it worse I think., they used to do this from ks too some time back 

you cannot change the angle from one side only, the suspension will compensate and tension will be added. You need to do this the hard way. Release the shock (just one screw, the bottom one), so you can really see the tensions on the sliders, and place shims on both sides, fasten, check, repeat. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by enaon

[Aztek]

How do you judge the tension in the sliders?

Tilting of the lowermost axis (the one where the shock is fixed on)?

[enaon]

1 minute ago, Aztek said:

How do you judge the tension in the sliders?

Tilting of the lowermost axis (the one where the shock is fixed on)?

release the shock and it will be obvious I think.

The sliders should introduce no friction at all, the body of the s18 should slide fully up and down using your little finger when laid on the side.
You will notice that this not hard to achieve when the bolts are not fully tightened, but it gets stiff when they are. If so, use shims. You can only test the shims you installed, after you get the bolts fully tightened. 

[enaon]

24 minutes ago, Aztek said:

Tilting of the lowermost axis (the one where the shock is fixed on)?

there are two types of tension that you want to avoid, one you can see, one you can not. 

you are correct that if you release the shock, you can observe tension on the arms height difference. but this is not the main problem>

the main problem is that if there is tension in the angle of contact, the columns will slightly bend, you cannot see that, but will affect the ride, it will interduce friction, one sided maybe.
 

Edited December 25, 2021 by enaon

[Aztek]

I can't imagine how the axis would introduce tension in the frame, as it is the only thing via which the rim/tire/wheel touches the whole corpus.

Seems simple to me: drop one end of the axis, the wheel assumes tilted position with regard to the frame, when I ride it, I keep the wheel/tire perpendicular to the ground, hence the axis horizontal, hence the frame tilts to the side opposite of the dropped axial end.

What do I miss?

Edited December 25, 2021 by Aztek

[Aztek]

Okay, this didn't work. No mater what axis tilting is done the problem persists.

Next thing is change of tire. It doesn't look uneven or bad in any way but must be a flawed tire geometry...

In order to not pick another bullshit chinese tire, I'll change it with a motorcycle one.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Aztek

[enaon]

48 minutes ago, Aztek said:

Okay, this didn't work. No mater what axis tilting is done the problem persists.

Next thing is change of tire. It doesn't look uneven or bad in any way but must be a flawed tire geometry...

In order to not pick another bullshit chinese tire, I'll change it with a motorcycle one.

I have a metzeler 80/90-14 in, prior to that I had the pirelli 80/80-14, the tire will help in general, but is not the main problem.

Try to understand what I wrote you, it will save you time. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by enaon

[.....]

Does it do the same thing when you ride it backwards? You know, if it IS the tire, you could always flip it around. The problem should mirror itself.

[Aztek]

24 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Does it do the same thing when you ride it backwards?

Yes...

[enaon]

16 minutes ago, Aztek said:

Yes...

Do a calibration from the app to rule it out, and then you are left with a very bad tire, or friction on one side on the sliders. The latter is very common I think. 
 

Edited December 26, 2021 by enaon

[Aztek]

6 minutes ago, enaon said:

Do a calibration from the app to rule it out,

The calibration doesn't change anything and the sliders don't seem to cause friction... Although I didn't dismantle the shock, as this construction (the sliders) seem to promise a nightmare of problems and I don't really want to play with them.

[enaon]

6 minutes ago, Aztek said:

The calibration doesn't change anything and the sliders don't seem to cause friction... Although I didn't dismantle the shock, as this construction (the sliders) seem to promise a nightmare of problems and I don't really want to play with them.

It must be the language barrier, plus you are bored to test


I am not talking about th shock arms, you will not touch them , just release the shock, just one screw, that is it. Then, you will observe tension on the sliders. The gray things that are bolted on the axis. You will just observe. If movement is not fluent, this is your problem.  
 

Edited December 26, 2021 by enaon

[Aztek]

Okay, I understood and can do this, but just can't figure out what such tension could be caused by and also how this might make the wheel trying to lean on its right side.

I'll try tomorrow.

The language - yeah, not sure how all these weird parts are called - some of them are invented by anonymous person in China, I'm sure, so there's no name really

Btw, some decades ago the Japanese and after the South Korean automobiles used to be of similar absurd quality. Just a fun fact. (The Russian are still :D)

I'm not bored, I'm exhausted from dismantling, putting back again, testing and repeating like 15 times since yesterday afternoon.

For a brand new, not really cheap wheel.

Also annoyed and starting to hate a rather large group of people (like over a billion).

But, rant and joke aside, I'll persist and do whatever necessary to get it in form and ride it, of course.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Aztek

[enaon]

2 hours ago, Aztek said:

but just can't figure out what such tension could be caused by and also how this might make the wheel trying to lean on its right side.

if friction is there, you will understand how and what trying to solve it
 

remember that you need to check with the axis bolts fully tightened. On a working wheel, that drags, release the shock and check for friction on sliders movement. If none, then look at the tire. 

[enaon]

2 hours ago, Aztek said:

I'm not bored, I'm exhausted from dismantling, putting back again, testing and repeating like 15 times since yesterday afternoon.

 

a nice hint is that if the shock is released, the wheel can be removed with out removing and plastic part on the s18, as at full compression you get to have access to the cable slot. 

[Aztek]

 

12 hours ago, enaon said:

language barrier

You're right and I'm wrong (and stubborn). Sorry!

I see I was lost in the terminology.

Lemme disassemble again and check for friction.

So, basically, it is a question of potential vertical deviation of the tubes, the unequal friction with the overlying sliders and the reason for this deviation?

How do you place the assembled wheel with shock disconnected to be able to properly check for friction?

Edited December 27, 2021 by Aztek

[enaon]

26 minutes ago, Aztek said:

 

How do you place the assembled wheel with shock disconnected to be able to properly check for friction?

I think that if there is enough friction to cause a drag, you will be able to feel it when the s18 is standing, you holding it from the handle, letting it go up and down. Be careful with the shock, maybe hold it with your other hand so it will not jam. 

then, if you do notice some friction, lay it on the side, and move each of the arms that are released from the shock. One may move the slider a bit, the other may not. The side that is not moving is the one with more friction. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by enaon

[Aztek]

6 hours ago, enaon said:

enough friction to cause a drag, you will be able to feel

Okay, with suspension released and plates holding the motor axes loosened up, the sliders move up and down the tubes easy.

With motor axes' plates tightened up they move much harder.

How can I identify the reason for the drag I wonder...

If only one side of the motor's axis is tightened it slides more or less well. Of both it drags. No matter which side is tightened up.

Interestingly enough, removing the right tube spacer (residing on the right axis end) eases the sliding.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Aztek

[enaon]

3 hours ago, Aztek said:

Okay, with suspension released and plates holding the motor axes loosened up, the sliders move up and down the tubes easy.

With motor axes' plates tightened up they move much harder.

nice, you found the problem, this will cause drag, unexpected behavior in general. Think it over a bit to understand how it works and why it gets stiffer when bolted, and I will explain how to solve it. 

[Aztek]

1 minute ago, enaon said:

solve it. 

I removed one of the spacer tubes put on the right axis end and the drag is resolved.

But the wheel still leans a bit to the right when I ride it.

[enaon]

 

5 minutes ago, Aztek said:

I removed one of the spacer tubes put on the right axis end and the drag is resolved.

But the wheel still leans a bit to the right when I ride it.

 you have to do two things at the same time, make sure the wheel is centered, and no tension exists. if either is not true, you will get a slight lean. So I think you should now go to the start of the topic and and read again how to use the shims. putting just one on one side is not going to really  help

Edited December 27, 2021 by enaon

[Aztek]

I have no shims in place now, the wheel is just 2-3 mm to one of the sides and there's no tension. Putting shims didn't change the tension, or anything really.

Do you think a millimeter or two of the center causes it? Because in the beginning, it was dead centered and leaned on the side more than now.

You do mean shims on top of the axis end under the upper (gray) plate of the slider, right?

Edited December 27, 2021 by Aztek