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Kingsong s18 issue?


Afiicaman
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Does s18 have a structural defect?

If you slightly hit the 2 aluminum rods(tubes) with steel one such as a screw driver the moter kicks. Please watch the linked vedeo. The loude sound of kicking(knocking) was made not by the screw driver but by the moter. 

When you watch the disassemble video of s18 posted by Kingsong the motherboard of s18 is mounted on the aluminum hoder to which the 2 aluminum rods are connected. 

Hitting the aluminum rods on which the slide tube moves up and down with a steel rod creates a sort of an electric shock (frequency). And it goes to the control board via the aluminum rods and affects the board. Of course it is not so strong that it cannot destroy the controller.  Trying it is totally safe for the motherboard. But I wonder if all s18 have the same symptom or not. 

https://youtu.be/jLY3MrdHNGk

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I thought mine was the only one that did this. Occasionally my wheel will exhibit the same jerk if I kick the right side pedal closed with decent force. It seemed to stop doing it as of late, but I never did anything different...

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After a little research, I think this may be normal. You are tricking the gyro by introducing a quick intense jerk forwards or backwards.  I bet if you hit the left tube the it will jerk to the right and vice versa. This is just my assumption as I am not at home to test this out.

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On 2/19/2021 at 2:17 AM, Whalesmash said:

I thought mine was the only one that did this. Occasionally my wheel will exhibit the same jerk if I kick the right side pedal closed with decent force. It seemed to stop doing it as of late, but I never did anything different...

Hi. Thank u 4 ur reply. Having read ur reply I became sure of my idea of the design of s18.

Yes u r right. The jerk of my s18 started with the pedals and later with the trolley handel. After lublicating the pedals it disappeared. But I wanted 2 know why. I come 2 think that s18 has an issue of an electromagnetic noise caused by the poor design of the control board and the holder or of pcb itself. Of course EMI is quite often and sometimes not serious but definitely not wanted. This issue is not critical because I tried the jerk at the speed of 50Km/h on a treadmill. And the control board of my s18 survived many testing. 

Have u tried the test  as I did with urs? It is safe 2 try. If u do not mind please try and update me.  

Thanks again.

 

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On 2/19/2021 at 4:12 AM, 5Cauac said:

After a little research, I think this may be normal. You are tricking the gyro by introducing a quick intense jerk forwards or backwards.  I bet if you hit the left tube the it will jerk to the right and vice versa. This is just my assumption as I am not at home to test this out.

Hi. Thank u 4 ur concern. 

Quite interesting assumption. It might be as u said.  Regardless of the result, it seems that s18 has an issue of an electromagnetic noise even though it does not seem 2 be so serious at this stage. The EMI affected the gyro sensor. 

Would u try 2 test with urs when u r home? I want 2 know the result. I wonder if the symptom is (relatively) general. 

Take care. 

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Sorry for not posting earlier, had too much fun on my S18 over the weekend. Tried out a few unfamiliar MTB trails.  :w00t2:

I was able to produce the same results by tapping the tubes and acted as suspected when tapped on opposite sides. I did not however test further.

One thing that came to mind as i wright this was to tap on the tips of underside of the breaking light. It's part of the board holder but i believe made of steel. 

Being that they are different metals perhaps they produce different frequencies. Perhaps it's just the aluminum tubing that is the issue?

 

   

 

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the "head" is 100% cast aluminum and acts as a giant heatsink for the mosfets, also there is a lack of conformal coating on the board allowing static electricity ingress and or any other elements, don't ride in sand or near an ocean as I've seen disasterous results with both

 

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I'm curious if you bonk it with a wooden spoon or something that's not metal, does it do the same thing? I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around how electrical noise induced by striking it would cause the motor to jog. If you tap the other side, does the motor want to jump in the opposite direction?

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On 2/23/2021 at 8:02 AM, 5Cauac said:

Sorry for not posting earlier, had too much fun on my S18 over the weekend. Tried out a few unfamiliar MTB trails.  :w00t2:

I was able to produce the same results by tapping the tubes and acted as suspected when tapped on opposite sides. I did not however test further.

One thing that came to mind as i wright this was to tap on the tips of underside of the breaking light. It's part of the board holder but i believe made of steel. 

Being that they are different metals perhaps they produce different frequencies. Perhaps it's just the aluminum tubing that is the issue?

 

   

 

Dear 5Cauac

I appreciate ur posting. This time I am sorry 4 the late reply.  I am happy to know that my idea was quite right. As I said somewhere in the forum actually the noise can be produded by the  trolly handel. So even though it is not critical but fundamental in terms of the structure of s18. 

And yes u r quite right in regard to the downside of the board holder. Tapping it might cause another noise. But as far as I know the holder is made of aluminum too.

My point is that the electromagnetic noises are of the whole aluminum structure including tubes, board holder, and trolly handel. 

Thank u again. 

Enjoy ur s18 safely. 

 

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On 2/25/2021 at 1:14 AM, Dgtreble said:

the "head" is 100% cast aluminum and acts as a giant heatsink for the mosfets, also there is a lack of conformal coating on the board allowing static electricity ingress and or any other elements, don't ride in sand or near an ocean as I've seen disasterous results with both

 

Sorry 4 my late reply.

Many Thanks 4 ur ADVICE. Yes u r totally right that is why I have been thinkng of spraying silicon pcb coating to the control board.

I am searching 4 a proper coating spray that does not hinder the board from cooling down.

It seems u r professional so Let me ask 3 qustions.

1. How serious do u think the electromagnetic noises are? Do u have any case of dead control boards by it?

2. Do u mean that riding s18 near an ocean is not good idea because of the salty and humid air? Why in sand? In sand of sea? Or any sand? 

3. Can I see the disastrous results too? Any wepsite, forum, or video footage?

I will be waiting 4 ur answer.

Take care.

 

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On 2/25/2021 at 2:51 AM, Tawpie said:

I'm curious if you bonk it with a wooden spoon or something that's not metal, does it do the same thing? I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around how electrical noise induced by striking it would cause the motor to jog. If you tap the other side, does the motor want to jump in the opposite direction?

Hi. Sorry 4 my late reply.

I am not a specialist but let me say. About ur 1st question, as usual, only metal things can cause a sort of triboelectric shock that produces electromagnetic noises. And any EMI (noise) can cause the malfuntions of the mother board of s18 and it in turn can cause jerks by the gyrosenser. 

I have no idea of ur last qustion. Do u also ride s18? Have u tried hitting the tubes of ur s18 as I said and showed in YouTube?

Sorry 4 my poor knowledge.  Haha.

Keep well.

 

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No, sadly I have but the 16x. But yes, the purpose of asking the question was to try to separate the cause being electrical noise from mechanical. If tapping it with wood or other non metallic object does not cause the motor to jog, then you are pretty certain something electrical is happening. And those kind of electrical problems are usually grounding issues... a loose wire or unfortunate design or both.

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I tried to knock on my two S18 with a screwdriver as you did.

Both wheels have the same problem than yours.

If I knock with the plastic part, no problem. So it seems to be an electrical or magnetic problem.

 Sometimes the S18 does this too (same sound and behavior) when I am riding and a big shock occurs.

I always thought it was mechanical, but it really looks like this electrical problem in fact.

 

 

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3 hours ago, NicoGyro said:

I tried to knock on my two S18 with a screwdriver as you did.

Both wheels have the same problem than yours.

If I knock with the plastic part, no problem. So it seems to be an electrical or magnetic problem.

 Sometimes the S18 does this too (same sound and behavior) when I am riding and a big shock occurs.

I always thought it was mechanical, but it really looks like this electrical problem in fact.

 

 

-> fix  I am riding WHEN a big shock occurs.

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6 hours ago, NicoGyro said:

-> fix  I am riding WHEN a big shock occurs.

Just to note, I have never experienced this behavior while riding however i do get this behavior 98% of the time when extending the trolley handle.

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I only have this problem when riding on one of the two S18s (I set the suspension harder, it limits the problem a lot).  But now I'm sure it's the same effect (the noise and the fast backward movement of the wheel). It's very short so it doesn't cause a fall, but it's still a bit scary.

 

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On 3/3/2021 at 7:38 AM, 5Cauac said:

 

Just to note, I have never experienced this behavior while riding however i do get this behavior 98% of the time when extending the trolley handle.

Hi. I have never experienced it either. But I think even though it is quite rare it might happen even in riding in principle.

And u right. Trolley handel can easily cause triboelectric so I made plastic caps and installed them on the hooks of my trolley polls. Confer photos linked.

https://band.us/band/83158166/post/1

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On 3/3/2021 at 6:15 PM, NicoGyro said:

I only have this problem when riding on one of the two S18s (I set the suspension harder, it limits the problem a lot).  But now I'm sure it's the same effect (the noise and the fast backward movement of the wheel). It's very short so it doesn't cause a fall, but it's still a bit scary.

 

Hi.

Yes it is definitely electrical problem.

And Even though I myself never experienced the problem in riding my s18 I am sure that it might happen in riding too. Unless you insulate the mother board from the aluminum holder with silicon spray it could be happen while riding. 

But I am almost sure that it is not so serious in terms of safty. In general Noises donot cause a cut out or something like that.

I have already tested my s18 on a treadmill. I made my s18 jerk by tapping at the speed of 50km/h several times. It did not make any serious failure. The gyro recovered the balance in a jiffy. 

I hope my test would help u to enjoy riding your s18 without fear. 

I am thinking of applying silicon pcb spray. 

Keep well.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Afiicaman said:

Hi. I have never experienced it either. But I think even though it is quite rare it might happen even in riding in principle.

And u right. Trolley handel can easily cause triboelectric so I made plastic caps and installed them on the hooks of my trolley polls. Confer photos linked.

https://band.us/band/83158166/post/1

That looks like a great solution for the handle but does that interfere with the lift sensor? I have mine turned off but others may prefer it on.

Either way, I'm not really concerned about it. This behavior has never affected my ride nor do I expect it to with the kind of riding I do.  I'd be worried if I constantly did any of these things: jumping off high places, going down stairs, riding in wet conditions, or places with high static electric charges. None of which I normally do.

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25 minutes ago, 5Cauac said:

That looks like a great solution for the handle but does that interfere with the lift sensor? I have mine turned off but others may prefer it on.

Either way, I'm not really concerned about it. This behavior has never affected my ride nor do I expect it to with the kind of riding I do.  I'd be worried if I constantly did any of these things: jumping off high places, going down stairs, riding in wet conditions, or places with high static electric charges. None of which I normally do.

Yes u r right. But sometimes the malfuntion by trolley handel makes me uncomfortable. 

And just 4 ur quriosity, my solution 4 the trolley doest affect the sensor. The sansor is actually a magnet located right under the grip right side. The magnetic sensor on the control board reads the magnetic field from the magnet of the handle grip so the installation of the caps doesn't affect the sensor at all. 

 

Edited by Afiicaman
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15 minutes ago, MrP-MrF said:

Some guys have really nothing to do... 

#really guys ?

U right.  Anyway electric noises shouldn't be. To protect the board in the long-term we'd better apply some insulation coating 2 the board. 4 example silicon or urethane spray.  However it still is not a must. 

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Sand has silica, iron, and other metals in it, also ocean airhas high salinity and will corrode a board if left outside long periods, riding along the beach is fine, riding in sand not so much, you can use silicone to fully seal the wheels ingress points and you will be fine, however this wheel should not be used in the sand in my opinion, dirt is fine, and it's made for that, sand is finer and gets everywhere.i don't suggest it

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