Unexpected shutdowns + advice on new EUC (Maybe KingSong 14"?)

[andrewk]

Hi Everyone,

Stumbled across this wonderful forum tonight whilst googling my Generic EUC's unexpected shutdowns and it seems pretty awesome (the forum that it, not the unexpected shutdowns).

I purchased an Airwheel clone from AliExpress, a "Hot style 9th X3 generation 20KM 350W" for pretty cheap (~£160) and fell in love with it. I've been using it every day for about 4 months and these devices can take a serious beating! However over the last 2 weeks I have experienced 2 unexpected shutdowns which resulted in a pretty terrifying faceplant/forward role both times and a huge dent to my pride! Fortunately didn't get too hurt, just a sore elbow and minor cuts/bruises, during the first time though, I was holding my phone in my hand and smashed it on the floor as I went flying. Fortunately I had one of those tempered glass screen protectors and only that cracked, the actual phone survived! 

The first time I was going up a pretty big hill and the low battery warning beeping / backwards pedal tilt started to come into effect however before I could safely dismount it completely shutdown and over I went, was like someone pulling a rug from under my feet. Usually the slow down feature gradually and safely forces you to dismount the wheel but I barely had a second or two warning this time. On this occasion the device completely died, wouldn't turn back on til' I plugged it back into the charger. After this I lost confidence in the device after realizing how badly I could have been hurt, traveled back home at basically walking speed just in case! 

The second time was on Wednesday, after convincing myself it was a one off and rebuilding my confidence, I was going pretty slow on a slight hill and the device instantly cut off, this time there was no warning. No beeps or pedal tilt, the device just shut off and again sent me flying. Afterwards the device would turn back on (not that I had the guts to get back on) but it was kind of weird as all the LED's were off which I haven't seen before. 

On both occasions the device had only been used for about 10-15 mins from a full charge.

I have since decided to retire the my EUC as i feel it has become too dangerous. After reading this forum tonight I have seen this a common a fault in a lot of the early wheels which sucks! I have read the thread on shunting which sounds like it might be a solution although a technically risky one according to some posts? I was wondering if anyone could help me understand, does shunting help prevent the 2 causes of unexpected shutdowns? 

I have seen that the KingSong wheel is being hailed as potentially the safest wheel yet, and has an impressive speed and range. I am considering purchasing one, does anyone have any good/bad experiences with them? I have read all the reviews I can find, but would like to hear more as I feel the reviews available are a little limited. Also I'm based in the UK, not sure if there are any resellers based here?

Or does anyone recommend a different 14" EUC all together? It's very important to me that the wheel does not suffer from any unexpected shutdowns. I have been looking at some of the IPS ones too, but it sounds like KingSong ones are better?

Any advice would be awesome, thanks for reading!

Andrew

[SlowMo]

1 hour ago, andrewk said:

have seen that the KingSong wheel is being hailed as potentially the safest wheel yet, and has an impressive speed and range. I am considering purchasing one, does anyone have any good/bad experiences with them? I have read all the reviews I can find, but would like to hear more as I feel the reviews available are a little limited. Also I'm based in the UK, not sure if there are any resellers based here?

Or does anyone recommend a different 14" EUC all together? It's very important to me that the wheel does not suffer from any unexpected shutdowns. I have been looking at some of the IPS ones too, but it sounds like KingSong ones are better?

Any advice would be awesome, thanks for reading!

Andrew

For UK distributor, you can contact @Jason McNeil.

[andrewk]

Thanks @SlowMo. Have you tried one ? 

[SlowMo]

21 minutes ago, andrewk said:

Thanks @SlowMo. Have you tried one ? 

I don't have a Kingsong but you can't go wrong with it. @Jason McNeil is the man. Send him a message and he will give you the best options.

[andrewk]

Thanks @SlowMo, I've messaged him. I don't suppose you have any feedback on the shunting question?

Cheers

[SlowMo]

Yes I have shunted my generic X3 clone and have not had any shutdowns so far. It has a 170wh samsung battery pack. Your battery capacity must be less like 130wh? It will surely lose power during high current draw specially when climbing uphill. That's why our experts always suggest to get the biggest battery capacity that you can afford so that you always have that reserve power even if you don't actually consume it. A 500-800 watt motor with a minimum of 340wh battery would be ideal. Better yet a 680wh battery would be cool.

 

[Jason McNeil]

Another announcement we'll be releasing in the next week, is that we're going to be offering entry level IPS eWheels, the a130, with our choice of batteries. On paper, these new cells will produce something like 2-3x better performance on climbs & acceleration. We'll try to do some side-by-side comparison of the difference high performing cells make.

[andrewk]

1 hour ago, SlowMo said:

Yes I have shunted my generic X3 clone and have not had any shutdowns so far. It has a 170wh samsung battery pack. Your battery capacity must be less like 130wh? It will surely lose power during high current draw specially when climbing uphill. That's why our experts always suggest to get the biggest battery capacity that you can afford so that you always have that reserve power even if you don't actually consume it. A 500-800 watt motor with a minimum of 340wh battery would be ideal. Better yet a 680wh battery would be cool.

 

So does shunting fix both causes of the unexpected shutdowns? With the potential risk of the device one day frying itself? I'd rather it fry then get injured through an expected shutdown lol.

Unfortunately the listing for the Wheel no longer exists so I can't say for sure the capacity is, although in the listing link it says 350W if that helps ? (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-style-9th-X3-generation-20KM-350W-Free-DHL-wheelbarrow-electric-unicycle-self-balancing-scooter-alone/32321040790.html). Is there another way to find out?  

Okay that sounds good, even If i shunt  my clone and it becomes safe again I definitely will be treating myself to a new high power/high capacity EUC, which looks likely to be the KingSong at the moment! 

Thanks for your help btw

[SlowMo]

13 minutes ago, andrewk said:

So does shunting fix both causes of the unexpected shutdowns? With the potential risk of the device one day frying itself? I'd rather it fry then get injured through an expected shutdown lol.

Unfortunately the listing for the Wheel no longer exists so I can't say for sure the capacity is, although in the listing link it says 350W if that helps ? (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-style-9th-X3-generation-20KM-350W-Free-DHL-wheelbarrow-electric-unicycle-self-balancing-scooter-alone/32321040790.html). Is there another way to find out?  

Okay that sounds good, even If i shunt  my clone and it becomes safe again I definitely will be treating myself to a new high power/high capacity EUC, which looks likely to be the KingSong at the moment! 

Thanks for your help btw

Yeah, shunting your bms won't cut the battery supply when there is huge power drain but at the expense of damaging your batteries. If any cell is stressed too much, charging it might be dangerous. Just don't use your generic EUC for climbing and do not let your battery level go down below 2 bars.You can open the cover to see the battery pack and it should have a label with the capacity written on it.

[andrewk]

Okay opened it up - here's a pic! 

[andrewk]

17 hours ago, SlowMo said:

Yeah, shunting your bms won't cut the battery supply when there is huge power drain but at the expense of damaging your batteries. If any cell is stressed too much, charging it might be dangerous. Just don't use your generic EUC for climbing and do not let your battery level go down below 2 bars.You can open the cover to see the battery pack and it should have a label with the capacity written on it.

Are recommending against using it to climb hills once shunted not because it could unexpected shutdown but because it could overheat and damage the batteries? And not to use when below 2 LEDS to avoid accidental depletion of the battery? 

I've noticed My LEDS don't seem to be accurate really anyway, or I've got a damaged battery already. Just now I fully charged it and shows 3 LEDS, and I often feel like when it does safely tilt back and beep due to low battery that kicks in around 2 LEDS anyway. Don't think I've ever seen it on just 1 LED, after one my unexpected shutdowns when I turned it back on it was down to 0 LEDS but still working which was strange.

 

 

[SlowMo]

9 minutes ago, andrewk said:

Are recommending against using it to climb hills once shunted not because it could unexpected shutdown but because it could overheat and damage the batteries? And not to use when below 2 LEDS to avoid accidental depletion of the battery? 

I've noticed My LEDS don't seem to be accurate really anyway, or I've got a damaged battery already. Just now I fully charged it and shows 3 LEDS, and I often feel like when it does safely tilt back and beep due to low battery that kicks in around 2 LEDS anyway. Don't think I've ever seen it on just 1 LED, after one my unexpected shutdowns when I turned it back on it was down to 0 LEDS but still working which was strange.

 

How long have you been using your unit? What is the mileage?

[andrewk]

Mid July this year, around 3-5 miles a day 4 day of the week. 

Is my understanding of this correct?

1 hour ago, andrewk said:

Are recommending against using it to climb hills once shunted not because it could unexpected shutdown but because it could overheat and damage the batteries? And not to use when below 2 LEDS to avoid accidental depletion of the battery? 

 

[Tom]

1 hour ago, andrewk said:

Is my understanding of this correct?

The BMS cutoff is basically there to protect the batteries from being fried - so any time the BMS has kicked in, it is because the motor is trying to pull a higher amount than the BMS deems 'safe' for the battery.

The reason people suggest to disable the BMS is because it cuts out if the power goes slightly over the limit, regardless of how long for. A lot of times, the battery will only need to enter the 'danger' margin for less than a second (hitting a bump or accelerating too fast) so in reality, the battery can handle this with minimal risk.

However, by disabling the BMS you still need to be aware of the stress on the battery (you must become the BMS ), because if you keep pushing it into the unsafe margin you can damage the battery, which in turn can result in a shut off (or rarely, a fire).

So in response to your question, you can still climb hills and ride on low(ish) battery, because the wheel will still warn you with beeps and tiltback when you are straining it too hard, pay attention (when it beeps, slow down!) and you'll be fine, if not, you'll damage your batteries (but at least not yourself).

 

Edit: This being said, the behavior of your EUC seems suspicious, I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries are damaged - just an assumption with it being a cheap one and having lots of daily use.

[andrewk]

15 minutes ago, Tom said:

The BMS cutoff is basically there to protect the batteries from being fried - so any time the BMS has kicked in, it is because the motor is trying to pull a higher amount than the BMS deems 'safe' for the battery.

The reason people suggest to disable the BMS is because it cuts out if the power goes slightly over the limit, regardless of how long for. A lot of times, the battery will only need to enter the 'danger' margin for less than a second (hitting a bump or accelerating too fast) so in reality, the battery can handle this with minimal risk.

However, by disabling the BMS you still need to be aware of the stress on the battery (you must become the BMS ), because if you keep pushing it into the unsafe margin you can damage the battery, which in turn can result in a shut off (or rarely, a fire).

So in response to your question, you can still climb hills and ride on low(ish) battery, because the wheel will still warn you with beeps and tiltback when you are straining it too hard, pay attention (when it beeps, slow down!) and you'll be fine, if not, you'll damage your batteries (but at least not yourself).

 

Edit: This being said, the behavior of your EUC seems suspicious, I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries are damaged - just an assumption with it being a cheap one and having lots of daily use.

Thanks for clearing that up for me @Tom. When you refer to the beep and tiltback that forces you safely dismount when battery is low  - that will still happen even if I've shunted it right? Also  the beep beep beep and tilt back that I get when I go faster than 8-10MPH(think) is that the warning I should now take seriously? I do tend to cruise around at that speed and just ignore the beeps lol, as there is a beep after that - a constant solid beep and thats when I slow down!

I am slightly worried the battery is damaged after reviewing it's behavior. I've noticed recently that when charging the device the charger keeps cycling through the green and red LED once every 20 seconds - kind of like its completing lots trickle charge cycles and I'm sure this isn't normal behavior. Even when it's supposedly fully charged it only seems to be 3 LEDS. 

Guess you get what you pay for, but this has been a great starting device, will be moving on soon  

Do you think I should try replacing the battery? Even after I've upgraded this model I still plan to use it for smaller commutes hopefully.

[SlowMo]

 

4 minutes ago, andrewk said:

Do you think I should try replacing the battery? Even after I've upgraded this model I still plan to use it for smaller commutes hopefully.

A 130wh replacement battery would cost you around 120 to 150 USD including shipping. It would be better if you can source the battery from a local supplier.

[Tom]

20 minutes ago, andrewk said:

Thanks for clearing that up for me @Tom. When you refer to the beep and tiltback that forces you safely dismount when battery is low  - that will still happen even if I've shunted it right? Also  the beep beep beep and tilt back that I get when I go faster than 8-10MPH(think) is that the warning I should now take seriously? I do tend to cruise around at that speed and just ignore the beeps lol, as there is a beep after that - a constant solid beep and thats when I slow down!

I am slightly worried the battery is damaged after reviewing it's behavior. I've noticed recently that when charging the device the charger keeps cycling through the green and red LED once every 20 seconds - kind of like its completing lots trickle charge cycles and I'm sure this isn't normal behavior. Even when it's supposedly fully charged it only seems to be 3 LEDS. 

Guess you get what you pay for, but this has been a great starting device, will be moving on soon  

Do you think I should try replacing the battery? Even after I've upgraded this model I still plan to use it for smaller commutes hopefully.

I can't say for sure because almost every generic EUC beeps differently (I own 2 generics) but at only 8-10mph it's probably alright if you're on flat ground and are ready to outrun if it cuts out. I'd definitely avoid the long beep.

If you want a replacement battery they are pretty cheap from China:

http://www.banggood.com/132W-Electric-Unicycle-Battery-18650-22PM-lithium-Ion-Battery-60V-p-977887.html (£45 for 132wh)

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/60V-5-2AH-Balancing-Unicycle-Electric-Scooter-Battery-20S-2P-18650-264Wh-balancing-scooter-350W-500W/32381331431.html (£80 312Wh)

I've modified my generic so I can clip the battery cover off and swap batteries on the go, I'd recommend doing the same - it's great!

Yeah, it does sound like your battery is damaged based on the charger behavior - this is sometimes fixed by shunting the BMS.

[andrewk]

22 minutes ago, Tom said:

I can't say for sure because almost every generic EUC beeps differently (I own 2 generics) but at only 8-10mph it's probably alright if you're on flat ground and are ready to outrun if it cuts out. I'd definitely avoid the long beep.

If you want a replacement battery they are pretty cheap from China:

http://www.banggood.com/132W-Electric-Unicycle-Battery-18650-22PM-lithium-Ion-Battery-60V-p-977887.html (£45 for 132wh)

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/60V-5-2AH-Balancing-Unicycle-Electric-Scooter-Battery-20S-2P-18650-264Wh-balancing-scooter-350W-500W/32381331431.html (£80 312Wh)

I've modified my generic so I can clip the battery cover off and swap batteries on the go, I'd recommend doing the same - it's great!

Yeah, it does sound like your battery is damaged based on the charger behavior - this is sometimes fixed by shunting the BMS.

That's sounds awesome about being able to swap out batteries on the go. Did you make a guide or anything ?

I've shunted the device last night but unfortunately no change in charger behavior. 

Thanks for the battery links - can you help me figure out what battery I currently have ?  There's a pic of it in one of the posts above. 

[Tom]

13 minutes ago, andrewk said:

That's sounds awesome about being able to swap out batteries on the go. Did you make a guide or anything ?

I've shunted the device last night but unfortunately no change in charger behavior. 

Thanks for the battery links - can you help me figure out what battery I currently have ?  There's a pic of it in one of the posts above. 

Do you have any more pictures of your EUC? I can give tips on making the battery swappable but it depends on how your case is, hopefully should have some pictures of mine soon.

The majority of EUC batteries use the red and yellow type connectors. It looks like the 312Wh battery on Aliexpress has a different charge wire so will require the red plug to be soldered (I'm assuming your EUC has the yellow/red plugs) - that being said, £80 for a 312Wh battery seems like a crazy deal, I might have to pick one up myself! The battery you currently have is 132Wh - calculate the Wh of a battery by (mAh * voltage) / 1000

If the shunt didn't fix the battery, it could be the charger, they are apparently quite prone to breaking but I'm not sure what behavior they show when broken.

[andrewk]

53 minutes ago, SlowMo said:

 

A 130wh replacement battery would cost you around 120 to 150 USD including shipping. It would be better if you can source the battery from a local supplier.

Thanks SlowMo. I might just bite the bullet and order one online as I'm not sure where else to find them. 

[SlowMo]

11 minutes ago, andrewk said:

Thanks SlowMo. I might just bite the bullet and order one online as I'm not sure where else to find them. 

Better order the 170wh replacement battery for more juice.

[andrewk]

8 hours ago, Tom said:

Do you have any more pictures of your EUC? I can give tips on making the battery swappable but it depends on how your case is, hopefully should have some pictures of mine soon.

The majority of EUC batteries use the red and yellow type connectors. It looks like the 312Wh battery on Aliexpress has a different charge wire so will require the red plug to be soldered (I'm assuming your EUC has the yellow/red plugs) - that being said, £80 for a 312Wh battery seems like a crazy deal, I might have to pick one up myself! The battery you currently have is 132Wh - calculate the Wh of a battery by (mAh * voltage) / 1000

If the shunt didn't fix the battery, it could be the charger, they are apparently quite prone to breaking but I'm not sure what behavior they show when broken.

Took some pics of the wheel, last pic is a still from a video I made when I was replacing the speaker so quality is kinda shabby.

Ah that makes sense thanks, looks like the 80 quid battery might be a winner. I guess if the problem persisted I could then try replace the charger,  ho harm in having a new battery either way!

 

 

 

 

[SlowMo]

I found something better for you. It's a 2900mah Samsung battery pack for USD 90.69.

Here is the link:

http://www.banggood.com/2900mAh-Electric-Unicycle-Battery-18650-16S-Lithium-Ion-Battery-60V-p-1006976.html

[andrewk]

Thank you SlowMo, I will be ordering that tonight when I get in from work. My battery is making my feel so anxious lol, really strange behavior - was doing this today. 

How could just my middle LEDS be on !?

IMG_8190.mp4

[Tom]

22 minutes ago, andrewk said:

Thank you SlowMo, I will be ordering that tonight when I get in from work. My battery is making my feel so anxious lol, really strange behavior - was doing this today. 

How could just my middle LEDS be on !?

IMG_8190.mp4

Sometimes the LEDs indicate some kind of error message or warning, 4 LEDs flashing means calibration error for example. However, as usual no mention of these codes in any EUC instruction booklet.

Just realized I quoted this battery as 312Wh but it is actually 264Wh (5200mAh) -  I think this is the realistic rating based on expected use levels for the EUC.