💦Wet commuters: what do you use? 🦆💦

[chrisjunlee]

20 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I’m sure they have and failed to realize that exceeding Gore Tex waterproofness doesn’t make them better. 

Gore-Tex is the best because of its BREATHABILITY combined with waterproofness. I could make my own rain coat that has better waterproofness than Gore Tex but I’d be sweating like I was in a sauna. The higher the waterproofness the less breathability. There’s no reason to go higher than what Gore Tex has done unless you’re getting blasted from all sides by pressure washers. 

Combine that with the lifetime guarantee/warranty of all Gore Tex products and you can’t beat it. 

I love ya man, and hate to burst your bubble, but you’re deep into the Goretex fanaticism 

”GoreTex” is just a brand with good marketing. There is nothing special about them besides their outrageous marketing budget. It’s Red Bull levelish. That is the reason you pay $600 for a $100 jacket. There is nothing special about their fabric. That is the hard truth.

Waterproof breathable fabrics have been around for decades. Don’t believe me? Take a look at the construction analog: non-woven polypropylene fabric - aka “Tyvek”. Not much has changed.

Never buy into pseudoscience marketing info-graphics. Dig really into the physics of it. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Darrell Wesh]

4 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I love ya man, and hate to burst your bubble, but you’re deep into the Goretex fanaticism 

”GoreTex” is just a brand with good marketing. There is nothing special about them besides their outrageous marketing budget. It’s Red Bull levelish. That is the reason you pay $600 for a $100 jacket. There is nothing special about their fabric. That is the hard truth.

Waterproof breathable fabrics have been around for decades. Don’t believe me? Take a look at the construction analog: non-woven polypropylene fabric - aka “Tyvek”. Not much has changed.

Never buy into pseudoscience marketing info-graphics. Dig really into the physics of it. 

Yea yea you seem to be big into looking out for the little guys and trying to belittle the prowess of the big guys. 

I get it. You don’t have the money to pay the premium. That’s okay. But there’s something you cost cutters don’t know.

People don’t just pay for the product. They pay for the peace of mind. They pay for the confidence it instills in them that when they put that jacket, those gloves, or those pants on they know the product will deliver  on its promises. We pay for that Gore Tex promise. 

So while you’re satisfied with the few bucks you saved off gear that’s supposed to last 10+ years, we’re all satisfied and confident of the price we paid for the best.  

I have thousands of dollars in arguably the best motor sports apparel brand Klim. There are hundreds of much cheaper options but you don’t understand the confidence putting on the best gear grants the wearer. 

I always thought people who bought designer clothes like Gucci and Louis Vuitton were morons. I had your same perspective.

But when I started buying outrageously expensive apparel from the best, I realized the true hard truth. It’s not just about the qualities of the clothes or gear. It’s how it makes you feel when you put it on. How it satisfies that curiosity, the one that itches at you to try on different brands. Once you buy the best, that itch is gone. 

[greentung]

I kind of think the specialized competition has caught up to Gore Tex since their patent expired 22 years ago. NeoShell is the most breathable waterproof fabric on the market. And Swiss made c_change increase its breathability when it gets warm. I agree that GoreTex is the industry standard and you know what you're getting. They sell different types of GoreTex fabric depending on the activity. 

I have a pair of Gore-Tex lined shoes and after two years it's no longer keeping water out. Not sure how to clean or restore the Gore-Tex lining in the shoe. I doubt I can get a new pair from the manufacturer (Ecco). But, the breathability and waterproofness was great while it worked. My old Arcteryx GoreTex hiking jacket work well up until I started sweating while hiking in the rain. Then the jacket was wet inside and out. Humidity affects the waterproofness. That was fifteen years ago. I think they improved it since. Either that or use Goretex Pro fabric instead of their lighter paclite material. 

My Gore-Tex rain pants have held up and worked great. Gore-Tex, NeoShell, and Toray fabric all kept the water out. But for everyday use, Toray's Entrant is my favorite. It's super light, feels great as a light shell, has water column rating of 30k mm and MVTR 30k+. NeoShell is only 10k mm waterproof but is the most breathable.    

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Yea yea you seem to be big into looking out for the little guys and trying to belittle the prowess of the big guys. 

XD 

I view everyone equally. Unless you're Korean, cause Koreans make dank bbq.

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I get it. You don’t have the money to pay the premium. That’s okay. But there’s something you cost cutters don’t know.

For myself, it's more of an issue with ethics - but that's a discussion for another time.

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

People don’t just pay for the product. They pay for the peace of mind. They pay for the confidence it instills in them that when they put that jacket, those gloves, or those pants on they know the product will deliver  on its promises. We pay for that Gore Tex promise. 

So while you’re satisfied with the few bucks you saved off gear that’s supposed to last 10+ years, we’re all satisfied and confident of the price we paid for the best.  

Believe it or not, I'm just as, if not even more, confident and satisfied with my choices. To the point where I don't *ever* have the 'what if' anxiety post purchase. How is that possible? Simple: I have the knowledge (basic physics + meta knowledge of expert reviews) to see through the marketing BS. That knowledge is empowering, and I understand not everyone subscribes to that model.

Here's a comical reduction of how I view this:

• $2 sock from Costco
• That same sock, literally the same model from the manufacturer, but with a Gortex™ tag: $10,000

With your peace of mind argument, you would buy the Goretex one.

My mind just doesn't work that way. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, greentung said:

My old Arcteryx GoreTex hiking jacket work well up until I started sweating while hiking in the rain. Then the jacket was wet inside and out.

Haha what magical piece of garment is going to defy the laws of physics and keep you from sweating while you’re  literally hiking up your heart rate? Any jacket you wore would have been wet on the inside. No matter the breathability. Until you stop and it gets a chance to dry off. I could be wearing the most breathable, lightest jacket and if I’m too active in it it will get wet inside from my perspiration. The key is how quickly it dries off. I’d argue your base layer was more at fault however, but that’s a different conversation. 

 

2 hours ago, greentung said:

But for everyday use, Toray's Entrant is my favorite. It's super light, feels great as a light shell, has water column rating of 30k mm and MVTR 30k+. NeoShell is only 10k mm waterproof but is the most breathable.    

Yep, as I said prior , the more waterproofness the less breathability. All subjective comments aside, any designer can make these waterproof membranes have an outer membrane that’s more comfortable or soft etc. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Darrell Wesh]

On 9/8/2019 at 2:23 PM, chrisjunlee said:

The gold standard for moto touring is the Roadcrafter classic. American made, tailored to fit even the most petite/slim builds, armored, on/off within 10 seconds 🔥. 

🦆💦

What do you guys use? And what are some other alternatives?

 

7 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Believe it or not, I'm just as, if not even more, confident and satisfied with my choices. To the point where I don't *ever* have the 'what if' anxiety post purchase. How is that possible? Simple: I have the knowledge (basic physics + meta knowledge of expert reviews) to see through the marketing BS. That knowledge is empowering, and I understand not everyone subscribes to that model.

Here's a comical reduction of how I view this:

• $2 sock from Costco
• That same sock, literally the same model from the manufacturer, but with a Gortex™ tag: $10,000

With your peace of mind argument, you would buy the Goretex one.

My mind just doesn't work that way. 

As you tell everyone about a $1,300 one piece suit that’s the gold standard.

I hope you’re joking. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[chrisjunlee]

FWIW, there is one aspect I pay a premium for: fit.

I do own a couple of Gortex items: for example my BMW Motard Gortex winter gloves ~$500? Only got them since they fit me perfectly. I legit dgaf they're BMW, gOrtEx, or cost more than your third class generic non-BMW oGrTEx outfit.

Oh yeah, shots fired mate 💥💣😋

Edited September 20, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[chrisjunlee]

15 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

As you tell everyone about a $1,300 one piece suit that’s the gold standard.

I hope you’re joking. 

You completely skipped over the first part: My criteria for rain commuting: on/off within 30 seconds with bone dry office clothes underneath.

As I mentioned before, it's on/off within 10 seconds. As far as I know, there are no other one piece suits that match that. Also, none that come tailored fit. 

GOREtEX CONSPIRACY CONFIRMED

Edited September 20, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Darrell Wesh]

6 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

You completely skipped over the first part: My criteria for rain commuting: on/off within 30 seconds with bone dry office clothes underneath.

As I mentioned before, it's on/off within 10 seconds. As far as I know, there are no other one piece suits that match that. Also, none that come tailored fit. 

 

10 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

FWIW, there is one aspect I pay a premium for: fit.

I do own a couple of Gortex items: for example my BMW Motard Gortex winter gloves ~$500? Only got them since they fit me perfectly. 

That’s absurd....but what it boils down to is you pay a premium for fit and I pay a premium for confidence and peace of mind. 

I don’t get how a one piece is convenient. Suppose you just want to take the pants off and not the jacket? In a one piece you can’t do that. What if its only misting and you get too hot and you just want the jacket off because your top under layer has adequate water resistance for a light mist? You gonna have half the one piece hanging off your body? 

 

[chrisjunlee]

5 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I don’t get how a one piece is convenient. Suppose you just want to take the pants off and not the jacket? In a one piece you can’t do that. What if its only misting and you get too hot and you just want the jacket off because your top under layer has adequate water resistance for a light mist? You gonna have half the one piece hanging off your body? 

Yup, that's the main reason why I never picked up the roadcrafter: it's too special case for a casual rider.

The main benefits of one-piece:

• it's like a jumpsuit - much faster than 2 piece to take off, and just one thing to hang up. It's so easy, people just take it on/off between stops. Similar difference between elbow pads and built-in jacket elbow pads.
• way more protection, waterproofness, and wind proofness

I used to do long moto tours in the rain with a 3/4 jacket and pants. A bit of water and wind gets in from the midsection. In cold weather, any bit of leakage drains your warmth and energy.

Two piece is *much* more flexible of course.

The roadcrafter one piece is for daily long distance moto commuters in the perpetually wet PNW 💦. A bit overkill for the casual rider, and probably overkill for EUC.