210V EUC in development

[Eyss]

14 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

you want smaller battery then 3000Wh it won't be 168V, if you want smaller battery than 2400Wh it won't be 134V, that's just physics, amount of battery cells, battery cells have weight.

The rumoured 210v begode wheel is 50s2p, 1850wh based on Samsung 50s. 

In theory it will be lighter due to 28 less cells than a blitz 32s4p. 50s cells put it having the same power output as a ex30 with 50e cells 

[Rawnei]

4 minutes ago, Eyss said:

The rumoured 210v begode wheel is 50s2p, 1850wh based on Samsung 50s. 

In theory it will be lighter due to 28 less cells than a blitz 32s4p. 50s cells put it having the same power output as a ex30 with 50e cells 

Yes but so far it's a rumor and not a real product, time will tell.

[MacGyverCanada]

21 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

If you want even smaller it won't be on the same performance level as these wheels no matter what.

I have absolutely zero interest in rolling at +90km/h so that's fine by me!  

 

6 minutes ago, Eyss said:

The rumoured 210v begode wheel is 50s2p, 1850wh based on Samsung 50s. 

That'd be interesting!  At ~70 grams per cell that's ~2kg weight savings (call it ~3kg with wiring/frame) for a trade-off of ~20% less theoretical range.  On top of that, higher voltage means lighter wiring but I'm not sure of the implications for the weight of the rest of the electronics.

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

If you want smaller battery then 3000Wh it won't be 168V, if you want smaller battery than 2400Wh it won't be 134V, that's just physics, amount of battery cells, battery cells have weight.

Blitz already fullfills your requirement of sub 37kg that you specified.

If you want even smaller it won't be on the same performance level as these wheels no matter what.

If the rumor leaked by @WheelGoodTime happens to turn out to be true, then there maybe a smaller battery wheel with 210 V, using high discharge, high capacity cells.

50 x 4.2 = 210 V

50 x 3.7 V x 5 Ah x 2P = 1850 Wh

Edited Wednesday at 02:59 PM by techyiam
Oops, someone beat me to it.

[WheelGoodTime]

58 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

There are lots of hurdles to overcome before potential rumor of a 210V wheel is a finished product.

Let's try to keep this thread about the X-Way.

To be clear, it's not a rumor. I saw it myself. But anyway, about the x-way... 🙃

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, WheelGoodTime said:

To be clear, it's not a rumor. I saw it myself. But anyway, about the x-way... 🙃

Thanks for sharing, but I hope you are not breaking your NDA?

[WheelGoodTime]

Just now, techyiam said:

Thanks for sharing, but I hope you are not breaking your NDA?

I don't have an NDA. I was never part of the design process 🙂 and the source that sent it to me also didn't have an NDA either

[Sholphin02]

1 minute ago, WheelGoodTime said:

I don't have an NDA. I was never part of the design process 🙂 and the source that sent it to me also didn't have an NDA either

Could you by any chance share the expected size of the wheel ? 12 - 14 - 16 - 18 inch wheel ?

Thanks

[WheelGoodTime]

40 minutes ago, Sholphin02 said:

Could you by any chance share the expected size of the wheel ? 12 - 14 - 16 - 18 inch wheel ?

Thanks

I'm unsure - I think it's a 20" wheel with a 14" rim. Might be a *tiny* bit smaller but I believe it has a 14" rim.

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, WheelGoodTime said:

To be clear, it's not a rumor. I saw it myself. But anyway, about the x-way... 🙃

For anyone who didn't see the wheel it's a rumor spread by you. 😅

Regardless, to finalize such a product I can imagine that there are some technical challenges to solve, things to (hopefully) double and triple check before releasing a 210V wheel.

[Funky]

So what are we talking about 30kg or under wheel? Oh right.. I forgot we use metal now, and it probably will have suspension. And what not else. So probably around 33kg.

36kg vs 33kg =  same thing as blitz. May i ask what does it bring to table - that we already don't have? Aside of yet again bigger voltage? Not impressed. 

I'm more impressed how fast Begode can make wheels.. (Even if they aren't that great sometimes)

[Drunkard]

I'm quite bad when it comes to electricity stuff. This might be useful to people like me. 

Please an some one explain to me what are the actual benefits of going 2P high voltage configuration?

If it purely because you would get the high speed wheel  with less weight? I might be missing something here because it seems there are way more drawbacks in this setup than benefits.

[onewheelkoregro]

31 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

I'm quite bad when it comes to electricity stuff. This might be useful to people like me. 

Please an some one explain to me what are the actual benefits of going 2P high voltage configuration?

If it purely because you would get the high speed wheel  with less weight? I might be missing something here because it seems there are way more drawbacks in this setup than benefits.

Higher voltage means you can use less wiring as opposed to a lower voltage systems. A higher safety threshold (especially for EUC) and more speed with less heat going through the whole system

[WheelGoodTime]

2 hours ago, Sholphin02 said:

Could you by any chance share the expected size of the wheel ? 12 - 14 - 16 - 18 inch wheel ?

Thanks

Just got word that it's 20". Keep in mind that anything can happen, or change, prior to the official announcement.

Edited Wednesday at 07:01 PM by WheelGoodTime

[Drunkard]

57 minutes ago, onewheelkoregro said:

A higher safety threshold

Can you expand on this? Because would it not have more issues with sag in 2P?

Lynx is high voltage and people report huge sag on hard acceleration. 

[onewheelkoregro]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

Can you expand on this? Because would it not have more issues with sag in 2P?

Lynx is high voltage and people report huge sag on hard acceleration. 

Probably will have more sag but with 50s cells sag doesn't really matter as much because it comes back pretty quick. I am not an electrician but I do have experience with electronics in vehicles because i am a Diesel Tech for an independent shop. But I have no idea if it will create more or less strain on the system

[Eyss]

6 hours ago, Drunkard said:

Please an some one explain to me what are the actual benefits of going 2P high voltage configuration?

Less heat. Higher speed potential with the same motor. 

There is a lot of misinformation being spread around about what higher voltage does. In previous wheels, the parallel packs remained the same while the series was increased which resulted in more batteries = more power, but some people say higher voltage = higher power.

50s2p will mean the wheel will be less powerful than the 134v or 168v 4p wheels with 50s batteries, unless they go with molicel p50b cells (blitz pack has 9500 nominal watts, 50s2p pack will have 7400 nominal). 

The best case study of this is the esk8 racers. If high voltage was the best, everybody would be running 18s or 20s batteries. In reality, you've got 8s, 12s, 16s and 18s competing. 

But in the electric car world they're going for higher voltage not for power, but for efficiency and charging capabilities 

This is a slightly silly but informative video of how voltage + amps affects motors. You can see the watts increasing but the amps staying relatively the same as the toys run faster and faster. 

teaching tech on YouTube also has a good video on voltage and amps 

https://youtu.be/tKg-jIrr_JE?si=1ZcpTYosLs20k4tR

 

 

Teaching 

Edited Thursday at 12:27 AM by Eyss

[alcatraz]

Higher voltage means more power, but not more maximum torque.

(power = speed, torque = acceleration/heavier rider)

So you can raise the speed limit on existing motors without increasing the motor's weight. (Provided there's enough torque to balance the rider.)

Whatever torque you have at low speeds a high voltage upgrade will extend that torque to higher speeds. I call it stretching the power curve.

I'm not an engineer but this is my understanding.

[Eyss]

37 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Higher voltage means more power, but not more maximum torque

I think you're thinking of field weakening. 

37 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

So you can raise the speed limit on existing motors without increasing the motor's weight. (

Yes, the motors have a kv rating which means more voltage = more rpm. it's unfortunate that we don't really see kv ratings in EUC motors when they're widely available in drone and esk8 motors as this makes way more of a difference than voltage. 

37 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Whatever torque you have at low speeds a high voltage upgrade will extend that torque to higher speeds. I call it stretching the power curve.

I'm not 100% on kv ratings and voltages, but from reading drone motor documentation, the power is still dependent on watts. 

[Drunkard]

Right. Thank you for the answers.

I get the efficiency and heat loss but i wonder how much of improvement % we are talking about. Tesla older models are still 400V compared to some 800V EV's and they been a leader still, guess they might be doing even better with 800V but retooling all production would be costly..

 

I guess for me the concerning think is the perception of high voltage = high performance = high speed. Imagine BG say that they making a 134V 1200Wh lightweight wheel. Everyone would be expecting it to hit the same performance as Blitz. But if you run fast and aggressive you will be 30% battery left after like 15-20km? And at that point it's no longer safe to ride quicker with increased sag from 2P.

 

Imagine someone made a slow 134V 1200Wh lightweight wheel. Lets say Inmotion. For efficiency argument that would probably make a lot more sense. Lets say limited top speed to 45kph with even more aggressive limiting on lower battery. Lots of warning beeps and pedal tilts etc. Everyone would be MAD that the wheel in not letting you ride it.

 

 

 

 

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

Right. Thank you for the answers.

I get the efficiency and heat loss but i wonder how much of improvement % we are talking about. Tesla older models are still 400V compared to some 800V EV's and they been a leader still, guess they might be doing even better with 800V but retooling all production would be costly..

 

I guess for me the concerning think is the perception of high voltage = high performance = high speed. Imagine BG say that they making a 134V 1200Wh lightweight wheel. Everyone would be expecting it to hit the same performance as Blitz. But if you run fast and aggressive you will be 30% battery left after like 15-20km? And at that point it's no longer safe to ride quicker with increased sag from 2P.

 

Imagine someone made a slow 134V 1200Wh lightweight wheel. Lets say Inmotion. For efficiency argument that would probably make a lot more sense. Lets say limited top speed to 45kph with even more aggressive limiting on lower battery. Lots of warning beeps and pedal tilts etc. Everyone would be MAD that the wheel in not letting you ride it.

Your comparisons are flawed, the reason a 210V+ 2P configuration is interesting is that we have some high performing batteries out now, there are Molicels that can already output a lot more current than the popular Samsung 50S and combined with higher voltage it takes less current to reach the same power output, those things combined means you can get very good performance and lower weight with a 2P configuration.

Let me give you a theoretical comparison with some made up numbers as an example.

210V x 50A = 10500W

134V x 50A = 6700W

And to reach higher voltages you need more cells in serial which also means higher capacity.

[Drunkard]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Your comparisons are flawed, the reason a 210V+ 2P configuration is interesting is that we have some high performing batteries out now, there are Molicels that can already output a lot more current than the popular Samsung 50S and combined with higher voltage it takes less current to reach the same power output, those things combined means you can get very good performance and lower weight with a 2P configuration.

 It was not really trying to compare my examples tbf. But what you find interesting in the 2P configuration is what my first example would be. High performance low Wh wheel. Sure with new batteries it will have the current but it will not have capacity. It will drain quick that is the issue. If you can ride quick but only for a sort amount of time, who want's that?

[Rawnei]

10 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

 It was not really trying to compare my examples tbf. But what you find interesting in the 2P configuration is what my first example would be. High performance low Wh wheel. Sure with new batteries it will have the current but it will not have capacity. It will drain quick that is the issue. If you can ride quick but only for a sort amount of time, who want's that?

Capacity = Weight, there i no way around that, people are asking for lighter wheels so they are automatically asking for less capacity at the same time, you can't change this fact with wishful thinking, wheels with more capacity already exists so there is no shortage there, you can buy those today already.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but a 210V 2P wheel with 5000mAh cells that would equal around 1800Wh just like the most popular wheels of the 100V generation but with better performance.

[Rollin-on-1]

16 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

 It was not really trying to compare my examples tbf. But what you find interesting in the 2P configuration is what my first example would be. High performance low Wh wheel. Sure with new batteries it will have the current but it will not have capacity. It will drain quick that is the issue. If you can ride quick but only for a sort amount of time, who want's that?

Racers may want that.  If on a short track with a low number of laps, the 2P may provide some weight, accelleration, braking, and turning advantages.  I don't see this 210v wheel being a competitor with all-arounder wheels on the market.

Edited Thursday at 01:07 PM by Rollin-on-1

[Funky]

Anyone who needs last mileage wheel also would want that. Imagine lightweight wheel that has amazing top speed or power... Wheels like V8/10, Teslas, KS14/16/18, with amazing top speed. 50-60kph for those size wheels would be awesome.

 

I would want a 1000Wh wheel that can go 60kph or faster... Just saying. (Everyone already knows..) 1000Wh - because that wheel will be lightweight.

My wheel has 1554Wh battery and i charge it only when battery drops down around 50%. Guess what - it happen EVERY second weekend. Yup.. I'm ridding my wheel daily and charge it only 2 times a month. dUCK YOU all who want big and even bigger capacity batteries.  If i had 3600Wh wheel - i could ride a month without charging.  Imagine 12 charges a year.. That's way to many.

I wish someone could make a 500-1000Wh wheel with amazing specs.. For 5-15km rides it would be perfect. Nothing wrong with 50-150km rides. I'm just not a fan of that. And i doubt there are many people who would want to commute 50-150km daily... Just saying. Most people live close to where they need to go..

Edited Thursday at 01:56 PM by Funky