NOSFET APEX-01

[on one]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

So why use  expensive top tier pedals as stock pedals and force the higher price on all owners.

That's how I was thinking about it, but still, cheaping out on pedals is bad for business too, that's why I appreciate the 6mm spikes on the Apex, it's not cheaping out and it's not expensive top tier either, but it will certainly keep a rider locked in if that's what they want, or they can file down spikes if they want. I'm still waiting for the reveal but it's getting to be too long now so I grow wearing of anticipating so now it's just going on the back burner.

[Rawnei]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

Before being able to try out the stock pedals on the Apex One, how can one be so sure that they are that bad, as stock pedals go.

Not everyone is going to want the same pedals in any case.

And usually, pedals are not that difficult to replace.

So why use  expensive top tier pedals as stock pedals and force the higher price on all owners.

I, for one, am not interested paying a higher price, due to the inclusion of a pair of high end pedals. 

 

All they have to do is to use holes with threads for spikes or grub screws instead of molded spikes, that would add plenty of customization for anyone.

[techyiam]

6 hours ago, on one said:

That's how I was thinking about it, but still, cheaping out on pedals is bad for business too, that's why I appreciate the 6mm spikes on the Apex, it's not cheaping out and it's not expensive top tier either, but it will certainly keep a rider locked in if that's what they want, or they can file down spikes if they want.

When I first stepped on an S16 Pro, my first impression of the stock pedals were that they looked and felt cheap. I speculated that the pedals were the casualty of cost cutting in order to bring it to the targeted price point. As it turned out, I ended up buying an S16 Pro. To my surprised, the stock pedals turned out to be reasonably good compared to the other stock pedals on my other wheels. And they seemed to be robust enough. I only use it to ride around town though. I bought a set of Inmotion branded spiked pedals for my V12, and I don't feel the stock S16 Pro pedals are inferior.

Based on looks alone, I have no complaints with the stock pedals on the Apex One either.

6 hours ago, on one said:

I'm still waiting for the reveal but it's getting to be too long now so I grow wearing of anticipating so now it's just going on the back burner.

I am waiting for quite a few new wheels to come out, including the F22 and the Inmotion flagship in 2025. Talking about taking a long time, the F22, V18, and the Inmotion flagship are talking forever to come out. However, there is always a constant stream of new wheels announcements every year. In addition, the latest and greatest new wheel often turned out to be not quite the wheel I would be interested in. So, I don't really wait with excitement for new wheels anymore. When they are out, is when they are out. 

Edited Friday at 08:04 PM by techyiam

[techyiam]

16 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

All they have to do is to use holes with threads for spikes or grub screws instead of molded spikes, that would add plenty of customization for anyone.

Perhaps @NOSFET Electric Dreams can give us a better idea whether that is a viable option for future production. 

[xiiijojjo]

I don't think the people behind Apex should take this talk about pedals or other things as us being nitpicky or negative. I think everyone here wants the next EUC company to turn into a success because the more companies and competition, the better the product the end user gets.

I personally hope this company will pull off what others have failed at. When you're a new manufacturer you just need 1-2 products with poor sales and it's game over. I mean think about it, if Leaperkim's first wheel had been as big of a flop as Abrams, they probably wouldn't have been around today, or maybe they would have had to go for a different segment of the EUC market because of the initial failure.

We must also remember what happened to Iron Korea and EVolution (if anyone even remembers them) 

The level of scrutiny that this wheel is facing is because of a communal hope that this company "Nosfet" will be around in 5 years, and will be a competitor or innovator.
We as a community understand the importance of their first product having a smooth launch so they can go the Leaperkim route of earning their reputation and becoming an industry leader.

If there isn't a market for whatever this wheel ends up being, will they be able to afford designing and producing another model?
In any case this launch is important for them so I hope they understand what the community wants, and can avoid something as catastrophic as firmware causing faceplants, or worse, never getting that far because no one wants to buy like with the Abrams. 

Edited Friday at 07:09 PM by xiiijojjo

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

We've been testing the wheel rigorously and the suspension is as smooth as butter. Without at risk of sounding cocky or biased; I can confidently say this is a suspension I wouldnt mind going fast on the trails with because its going to be more predictable. We have started to gather interest from business partners and when a narrowed down samples will be provided to them with the hopes of riders like yourselves being able to test first hand. Can't wait for people to try out the APEX!

 

 

[techyiam]

46 minutes ago, NOSFET Electric Dreams said:

We've been testing the wheel rigorously and the suspension is as smooth as butter.

That's exciting to hear.

Would you say the butter smooth suspension action of the Apex is in the same ballpark as the Sherman-S or the Patton?

[Frolic0415]

[Funky]

69 one will be NICE. 
Also great to know which 100 wheels we don't want to buy. Aka: first "batch" problematic wheels. 

Edited 19 hours ago by Funky

[techyiam]

I am curious as to whether lock washers / flat washers combination with fasteners are used throughout, or just for this promotional picture?

[Parker Noodles]

11 hours ago, techyiam said:

I am curious as to whether lock washers / flat washers combination with fasteners are used throughout, or just for this promotional picture?

I sincerely hope not. NASA's guidelines for fastener design states split lock washers are "useless for locking."

Spoiler

"The lockwasher serves as a spring while the bolt is being tightened. However, the washer is normally flat by the time the bolt is fully torqued. At this time it is equivalent to a solid flat washer, and its locking ability is nonexistent. In summary, a Iockwasher of this type is useless for locking."

NASA publication RP-1228, 1990, pp. 9-10.

I am also aware of the wider debate of their use in static situations; however, the suspension of an EUC should be considered as an environment with a lot of vibration, which is the worst possible situation for lockwashers. Best case they are doing nothing, worst case they actually cause the bolts to loosen faster than they otherwise would.

 

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Parker Noodles said:

I sincerely hope not. NASA's guidelines for fastener design states split lock washers are "useless for locking."

It's a shame that in a NASA publication, the conclusion is based only on a one line theorization, and not on hard data.

The flat washer - lock washer combination has been in use in the car and motorcycle industries for decades. And I have wrench on both cars and motorcycles for decades, even on single cylinder engined motorcycles, and the effectiveness of the flat-lock washers combo has been proven effective when the fastener is tightened to the specified tightening torque. Note that the lock washers need to be spec'd properly too.

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by techyiam

[slippyfeet]

15 hours ago, Frolic0415 said:

from this limited view angle, it could be close or similar to the "v.Ramirez" setup that the ewheels team riders mentioned in high regard for in their latest livestream. charge port on the top is convenient as well.

[Parker Noodles]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

It's a shame that in a NASA publication, the conclusion is based only on a one line theorization, and not on hard data.

The flat washer - lock washer combination has been in use in the car and motorcycle industries for decades. And I have wrench on both cars and motorcycles for decades, even on single cylinder engined motorcycles, and the effectiveness of the flat-lock washers combo has been proven effective when the fastener is tightened to the specified tightening torque. Note that the lock washers need to be spec'd properly too.

I assure you the NASA engineers that prepared that document were not being paid off by big anti locking washer. All the papers that I have read only one or two found locking washers to be effective, more state that they either contributed to loosening or do no better than a regular washer. Of the papers I have read that compare different anti-loosening methods all suggest chemical locking compounds (locktite), using double nuts, or using nylon locknuts are more effective at preventing loosening.

Spoiler

Loosening-resistance evaluation of double-nut tightening method and spring washer by three-dimensional finite element analysis. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.engfailanal.2008.09.027

Loosening Resistance Evaluation of Double-Nut Tightening Method, Spring Washers, and Conical Spring Washers: Finite Element Study. https://doi.org/10.1115/PVP2008-61345

Review on anti-loosening methods for threaded fasteners. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cja.2020.12.038

An investigation on the anti-loosening characteristics of threaded fasteners under vibratory conditions. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.mechmachtheory.2008.08.004
(This is the one that is most positive about lock washers, but it still shows other methods are better if you want something to keep from loosening.)

https://www.boltscience.com/pages/helicalspringwashers.htm
(This isn't doesn't strike me as a very rigorous source, but there is a video which is nice.)

I recognize this is a really stupid debate to be having, but the evidence is very clear that lock washers are not worthwhile, the only reason I can see for them still being used is because "we always did it that way," which is an awful reason to do anything.

For EUCs, where any sort of failure has the potential to be very harmful, every part on the wheel should have its role and utility considered. Locking washers are not needed and only serve as another part to get lost when working on the wheel (or, potentially even cause the bolts to loosen faster.)

To be clear, I am excited for this wheel and have no issue with Nosfet, I just wish we as a community were more critical of the choices the people designing these wheels make.