Elwood Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 If you're getting a wheel with a large battery pack like commander Pro or EX30, and you ride maybe 15 or 20 miles max, and don't push over 35 or 40 mph for brief periods of time, does it matter (or could you even tell) if you have 50E or 50S batteries? There seems to be fairly good deals on these wheels with the 50E batteries. Thanks for the replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 A larger pack sees zero benefit from 50S. Meaning 6 parallels or more. 3600Wh/4400Wh (134/168v) 50E cells can do short bursts but they overheat quicker. If you are considering 4 parallels like 2400Wh-134v or 3000Wh-168v then you can't be pushing insane amps for long periods. Climbing 2000meters in a short time, weighing like 100kg and pushing. Also in summer you have less temperature headroom so no joyriding then. If you don't want to have to think about cell temperature then go with 50S. Personally I couldn't care less about 50E or 50S because I'm a lightweight rider and thus pull fewer amps. I don't do any joyriding. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 37 minutes ago, alcatraz said: Personally I couldn't care less about 50E or 50S Same here. I can't make my EX30 break a sweat even with 50E so I wouldn't know if it even had 50S inside it and I'm 95Kg. @Elwood, your speeds are similar to mine as well although I often do 100 mile rides in a day, albeit in the UK which as we all know is not exactly the Sahara in terms of temps but even on the hottest UK day (30+ degC) I don't have any problems, batteries or board temps. Sounds to me like you would be fine on 50E and if they are a good price I would say it's a no brainer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InMoOnGoWa75012 Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR21700-50E 5000mAh (Cyan) UK.html Considering "Maximum continuous discharge current" as 2C (10A) (2.95/4.2) * 2 * 3600wh ~ 5KW power as minimal available power on EX30 with 50E ?!? with afterburner "Maximum pulse discharge current" as 3C ~ 7.5KW ?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 (edited) 9 hours ago, InMoOnGoWa75012 said: https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR21700-50E 5000mAh (Cyan) UK.html Considering "Maximum continuous discharge current" as 2C (10A) (2.95/4.2) * 2 * 3600wh ~ 5KW power as minimal available power on EX30 with 50E ?!? with afterburner "Maximum pulse discharge current" as 3C ~ 7.5KW ?!? Depends on how long the pulse is. You can pull more than 2C but not continuously. 7.5kW on a 134v wheel (EX30) breaks down to something like this. Heavy voltage sag pulls a full 50E battery down to ~3.6v x 32 = 115v. (3.6v from the attached graph) 7500 watts / 115v = 65A. The pack is a 6P (right?) so each cell sees 11A (65/6). If 7.5w is motor power and there are losses in the power modulation then it's a bit more than 11A but it shouldn't be too much more. 11A per cell is fine for 50E. You can pull that all day as long as you have max 20C ambient temperature (like the lab where the cell was tested). There is an argument for 50S having less voltage sag and so you won't feel that tiny delay before pulling. But the capacitors should eliminate a lot of that. This becomes much more apparent on 1-4 parallel wheels. Not the EX30. As mentioned 50S is only really useful on smaller packs with 1-4P. Begode Master, Veteran Lynx, Kingsong S22 have 4P configurations and could in some cases benefit from 50S cells. Racing, climbing, heavy rider, hot climate. Edited August 4 by alcatraz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 (edited) I just noticed that the graph has two 50E cells tested. One was able to do 15A without overheating and one couldn't finish the 10A test without overheating. That's a bit alarming that there's such variation. Maybe there are 50E packs out there that can overheat when others don't. Edited August 4 by alcatraz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 I would always choose 50S, they're superior and the cost difference is not huge, another benefit with 50S is that they handle cold better so also something to consider of you live somewhere with cold climate. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InMoOnGoWa75012 Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 3 hours ago, alcatraz said: I just noticed that the graph has two 50E cells tested. One was able to do 15A without overheating and one couldn't finish the 10A test without overheating. That's a bit alarming that there's such variation. Maybe there are 50E packs out there that can overheat when others don't. EX30 battery protection software : 7 minutes ago, Rawnei said: I would always choose 50S, they're superior and the cost difference is not huge, another benefit with 50S is that they handle cold better so also something to consider of you live somewhere with cold climate. With "only" 2700wh on my old EX.n, I feel power loss with 80% PWM around 40% battery left (riding in Paris) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 1 hour ago, InMoOnGoWa75012 said: With "only" 2700wh on my old EX.n, I feel power loss with 80% PWM around 40% battery left (riding in Paris) I'm not sure if 50S helps in this situation. Maybe only a tiny bit. Mostly because the battery voltage at 40% is low for any cell type. It is true that 50S can delay the low voltage condition from occurring but not by a huge amount. Maybe a few percentage points, single digit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InMoOnGoWa75012 Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 1 hour ago, alcatraz said: I'm not sure if 50S helps in this situation. Maybe only a tiny bit. Mostly because the battery voltage at 40% is low for any cell type. It is true that 50S can delay the low voltage condition from occurring but not by a huge amount. Maybe a few percentage points, single digit. To prevent any bip, I always try riding at least with 50% battery left with my Ex.n. Below 50% : soft ride only https://batteryservice.bg/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/INR21700-50E.pdf https://www.dnkpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/SAMSUNG-INR21700-50S-Cell-Specification.pdf 2C (50E) vs 5C (50S) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InMoOnGoWa75012 Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintips Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 On 8/3/2024 at 8:19 AM, alcatraz said: A larger pack sees zero benefit from 50S. Meaning 6 parallels or more. 3600Wh/4400Wh (134/168v) 50E cells can do short bursts but they overheat quicker. If you are considering 4 parallels like 2400Wh-134v or 3000Wh-168v then you can't be pushing insane amps for long periods. Climbing 2000meters in a short time, weighing like 100kg and pushing. Also in summer you have less temperature headroom so no joyriding then. If you don't want to have to think about cell temperature then go with 50S. Personally I couldn't care less about 50E or 50S because I'm a lightweight rider and thus pull fewer amps. I don't do any joyriding. Yes i agree my mten4 barely breaks a sweat with 50e cells being a light weight rider Out of curiosity is there an LG equivalent of 50s or another manufacturer of batteries now? Or does samsung own that market now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skampster Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 My opinion, on a Sherman L in Australia, it’s $6300 for 50E, $6700 for 50S. An extra $400 at that point is meaningless, you might as well buy the best current battery tech available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 11 hours ago, kintips said: Yes i agree my mten4 barely breaks a sweat with 50e cells being a light weight rider Out of curiosity is there an LG equivalent of 50s or another manufacturer of batteries now? Or does samsung own that market now? Price is important but I believe availability is even more important for the euc manufacturers. They can't delay sales because of battery packs. The manufacturers are all in China and import stuff there comes at a premium, so the options we get are the cells that are available in China that aren't expensive = manufactured in China. So as long as a particular cell type is made there it's being considered (availability/price/performance). Not all cells are made there. You won't see those cells in Chinese eucs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 11 hours ago, kintips said: Yes i agree my mten4 barely breaks a sweat with 50e cells being a light weight rider Out of curiosity is there an LG equivalent of 50s or another manufacturer of batteries now? Or does samsung own that market now? Btw, the mten4 is a 2 parallel battery configuration. You have half the available current of an s22/lynx/master/rs/v11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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