The "best feeling" wheel (wheel zippiness and controlability)

[techyiam]

On 3/3/2024 at 5:28 AM, Panzer04 said:

I'm not entirely convinced this is all there is to it, because wheels like the S22 feel disproportionately easier  to control, and this sort of makes wheel weight feel less meaningful than I've generally thought it would be.

Which other wheels are you comparing the S22/Pro to?

If you compare the S22 to the OG Sherman, both at 77 lbs, then yes, but the OG Sherman has 3200 Wh vs 2220 Wh battery capacity.

The wheel that I find disproportionately easier to control is the Patton.

The Patton weighs 89.3 lbs, where as the S22 weighs 77 lbs.

And they both have 2220 Wh battery capacity.

Racing round a very tight cone track in a parking lot, I thought both handled well, and took about the same amount of effort to maneuver.

My Abrams weighs just 7 lbs more than the Patton, and there is a world of difference in riding dynamics. But the Abrams has 2700 Wh of battery whereas the S22 has 2220 Wh.

What is also interesting is the Lynx when compared to the Abrams.

The Lynx weighs 88 lbs with a battery capacity of 2700 Wh, where the Abrams weighs 9 lbs more, but with the same battery capacity. And the Lynx is so, so much easier to ride and control.

 

Generally speaking, the weight of the battery battery, and the weight distribution of the battery on the wheel can affect riding dynamics.

If the cells are mounted low and wide (larger polar moment of inertia), the wheel will feel like it has a lower COG but it will feel more ponderous to maneuver.

On the other hand, if the battery cells are mounted closer to the centre and not spread out, it will feel more top heavy, but more agile.

[rcgldr]

4 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

Pedal/wheel tilt

Less ankle bend, but it makes the situation worse. Forward tilt moves the pedals back, which shifts the riders center of gravity back, which will require the rider to exert more forwards torque onto the EUC frame to compensate for the riders backwards CG shift. Again, the key issue is motor torque equals rider torque (otherwise the EUC frame would be rotating forwards or backwards).

As for ankle bend when accelerating hard or riding at high speeds into the wind, most riders bend more at the hips, so ankle bend is less of an issue in those cases, plus the riders are normally using power pads.  Nearly all of the youtubers run pedal setting in hardest mode for paved surfaces.

Edited March 8 by rcgldr

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

Forward tilt moves the pedals back, which shifts the riders center of gravity back, which will require the rider to exert more forwards torque onto the EUC frame to compensate for the riders backwards CG shift.

Have you try it on various wheels?

Real life observations may differ from what you have explained.

If you haven't, you may want to try it to see what happens. 2 degrees forward tilt should enable you to experience some effects.

[Rider1]

52 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Have you try it on various wheels?

Real life observations may differ from what you have explained.

If you haven't, you may want to try it to see what happens. 2 degrees forward tilt should enable you to experience some effects.

I think this might be due to the wheel body (and therefore the COG of roughly 20-30kg) shifting forward when tilted forward, and I think this has a stronger effect since the pedals are actually quite close to the center of the wheel, so they don't move much.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Rider1 said:

I think this might be due to the wheel body (and therefore the COG of roughly 20-30kg) shifting forward when tilted forward, and I think this has a stronger effect since the pedals are actually quite close to the center of the wheel, so they don't move much.

When I tilt the pedals forward, at idle with no rider onboard, the wheel hardly move forward on its own. Yet, when riding, the wheel is noticeably snappier.

 

Here is another possible explanation.

Let's consider a basic setup where the pedal height is set to axle height. And the pedal angle is set to level, no tilt. And no pads are used.

In this setup, maximum acceleration occurs when the rider's COG is at the leading edge of the pedal.

However, in real life, it may not be so easy to get your COG to the front edge of the pedal. Remember, no pads are used.

Well, with forward pedal tilt, your body weight would naturally be placed closer to your toes than your heels.

So, a rider may feel that it takes less effort to accelerate.

[rcgldr]

2 hours ago, Rider1 said:

I think this might be due to the wheel body (and therefore the COG of roughly 20-30kg) shifting forward when tilted forward, and I think this has a stronger effect since the pedals are actually quite close to the center of the wheel, so they don't move much.

Depends on how low or high the pedals are. 18XL pedals are fairly low. On other EUCs with adjustable pedal height, the lowest setting is also fair low. 

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Well, with forward pedal tilt, your body weight would naturally be placed closer to your toes than your heels.

It would be similar to wearing shoes with somewhat larger heels. The pedal tilt isn't much either, max is probably somewhere between 5% and 10%.

For all of these riders using power pads on larger EUCs, it doesn't look like there is much if any pedal tilt. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyRxroEKHas&t=360s

If you watch the video long enough, Dawn and Roger complain about pedal dipping, but it was due to having pedal "softness" at 0%, which Marty thought meant hard mode. This setting also limited the V13 to 37 mph (Inmotion speed, 33 mph GPS speed). All of the riders in that group normally use the hardest setting. Inmotion App later changed the description to pedal "hardness". This was resolved the next day (set to 100%), and a few days later Dawn did a speed run up to 52 mph GPS. From what I can see in these videos, Dawn has her feet forwards and shins resting on the front power pads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqbevoSPKFQ&t=10s

 

Edited March 8 by rcgldr

[techyiam]

@rcgldr

So you haven't try tilting the pedal forward then?

[Rider1]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

So, a rider may feel that it takes less effort to accelerate.

Therefore, you would say that the pedal tilt does not affect the actually possible maximum acceleration, just the perceived "ease of acceleration"?

[techyiam]

47 minutes ago, Rider1 said:

Therefore, you would say that the pedal tilt does not affect the actually possible maximum acceleration, just the perceived "ease of acceleration"?

I gave one explanation for what I observed for my case.

Let me say this. If I would be riding a certain way, along a specific route. I then tilt the pedal forward, and then ride the same route in exactly the same manner, with no additional effort. I would end up riding faster, and the wheel would feel more responsive.

Personally, I don't go for maximum acceleration normally, so I wouldn't know.

 

It would be interesting to see what racers have to say. They already have no problems going all out. So if they go to race with and without pedal forward tilting, they could perhaps better answer what you want to know

For me, I don't race on the streets. I just ride normally. Tilting the pedals forward can make the ride more enjoyable, more responsive.

 

Edited March 8 by techyiam

[rcgldr]

Just now, Rider1 said:

Therefore, you would say that the pedal tilt does not affect the actually possible maximum acceleration, just the perceived "ease of acceleration"?

Not even "ease of acceleration". Using forward pedal tilt is mostly done when not using power pads, and pedal pressure only, limiting the maximum leverage available to half the length of the pedals with all of the riders weight at the front edge of the pedals. In reality, if using pedals only, the rider has to keep the center of force between the front and rear of the pedals (otherwise the rider would fall).  One example of a rider putting nearly all of their weight at the front of the pedals is Wrong Way doing hill climb tests on EUCs without power pads. He moves his feet back so his "toes" don't hang off the front of the pedals, lifts his heels off the pedals and puts all of his weight on his "toes" at the front of the pedals, with arms extended for balance and to catch himself if he overleans the EUC. Essentially he is balancing on just his "toes" when doing this.  Example of Wrong Way doing a slow speed 40° incline climb on a 16X. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2W3fFhILDw&t=497s

Tilting the pedals is mostly done for comfort, not for acceleration. For a heavier EUC or one with a larger tire, power pads are normally used, and for most riders with zero tilt angle. 

 

Just now, techyiam said:

It would be interesting to see what racers have to say.

The limiting factor for racers when turning is pedal scrape, so they use the highest pedal setting (if adjustable), hardest setting,  and zero tilt. 

[rcgldr]

Just now, techyiam said:

@rcgldr

So you haven't try tilting the pedal forward then?

I'm riding a V8F, with limited acceleration and top speed (my max on V8F is about 18 mph GPS). I tried tilting pedals forward to see if that would reduce calf fatigue, but it made no difference, so I switched back to level pedals. The V8F setting is off, and I used an actual level on the pedals, and had to set the V8F to +2° to end up with level pedals. What eliminated calf fatigue for me was switching to hi-top hiking shoes, which provide some ankle bend support. I have pedal hardness set to 100%. The V8F soft mode isn't good, due to it's auto-tilt | auto-lean feature for inclines or declines, where it will maintain the current speed and auto-lean the rider for an incline or decline. With a soft mode setting, it tilts the pedals back on even a slight downgrade, which is annoying. 

As mentioned before, most youtubers run hard mode for paved surfaces. For off-road, using medium mode will allow an EUC to tilt a bit in response to bumps or dips without accelerating or decelerating, for a smoother ride.

[techyiam]

47 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

I'm riding a V8F,

I didn't find much change on my T3 either. But then, those things are really responsive to start with. I am probably maxing out torque anyway.

That is why I asked whether you have tried on various wheels. 

I can't speak for others. But sometime ago, I did read about people like Wrongway were using hard mode.

But more recently, with wheels like the Master and such, people were finding way more acceleration once switched to soft mode.

I am not certain what others are using now. But I don't think everybody is using hard mode. With suspension and pedal height adjustment, there is more latitude with regards to pedal mode.

For myself, I use soft mode. And I mainly commute.

At Intro2speed events, the older models were scraping pedals, but with the suspension wheels, no one was scraping pedals.

[Panzer04]

59 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

I'm riding a V8F, with limited acceleration and top speed (my max on V8F is about 18 mph GPS). I tried tilting pedals forward to see if that would reduce calf fatigue, but it made no difference, so I switched back to level pedals. The V8F setting is off, and I used an actual level on the pedals, and had to set the V8F to +2° to end up with level pedals. What eliminated calf fatigue for me was switching to hi-top hiking shoes, which provide some ankle bend support. I have pedal hardness set to 100%. The V8F soft mode isn't good, due to it's auto-tilt | auto-lean feature for inclines or declines, where it will maintain the current speed and auto-lean the rider for an incline or decline. With a soft mode setting, it tilts the pedals back on even a slight downgrade, which is annoying. 

As mentioned before, most youtubers run hard mode for paved surfaces. For off-road, using medium mode will allow an EUC to tilt a bit in response to bumps or dips without accelerating or decelerating, for a smoother ride.

This is not at all my experience. Softer modes are easier to accelerate quickly, precisely because (presumably) of a combination of shifting wheel weight forward and making it easier to lean further forward. I use stiffer modes offroad because I don't want the wheel to tilt further forward when it hits a bump - I want it to climb the obstacle immediately, rather than tilt then try to "catch up" because it spent time not utilising its available traction. Suspension should be dealing with the bumps.

If your reference point is a V8 it's no wonder you don't need the help - the V8 is low-powered enough that you can overlean it with virtually zero assistance, and the wheel weight is largely insignificant next to your own. For a 42kg master with my 82kg BW, it makes up 1/3 of my body weight, so tilting it forward gives both more benefit from moving its mass and I need to lean harder on its 20" wheel to accelerate a total of 125kg rather than 100kg with a lighter wheel.

If I wanted to drag-race someone on EUCs I would use race + softmode because I can get more weight out front. I'd use those modes more, honestly, but they have the aforementioned drawbacks offroad, + changes to ride feel since the wheel contact point trails further behind you.

Edited March 9 by Panzer04

[rcgldr]

Just now, Panzer04 said:

Softer modes are easier to accelerate quickly

In order to accelerate, a rider needs to lean forwards, which requires the EUC to decelerate from under the rider and to exert a forwards torque onto the rider, which occurs in response to the rider exerting a backwards torque onto the EUC (in spite of the fact that many riders are not aware of this, since it is how people lean forwards on solid ground, by initially pressing with the heels). Using a soft mode delays both the deceleration and the forwards torque from the EUC while the EUC allows the rider's backwards torque to initially tilt the EUC backwards. Then once the rider is leaned forwards and exerts a forwards torque onto the EUC, there's yet another delay while the EUC allows the rider's forward torque to tilt the EUC forwards. 

Due to a chance encounter on a bike trail, a guy let me try out his V11 with jump and power pads, which I rode for a few minutes without issue, other that I used support to mount and launch since my hiking boots barely fit under the jump pads. I didn't have any issues with riding or dismounting. It was set to hard mode.

These issues are part of the reason that the Inmotion V13 reduces top speed from 52 mph to 33 mph (GPS) speed if the pedals are set to soft (0%) mode.

Edited March 9 by rcgldr

[Panzer04]

29 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

In order to accelerate, a rider needs to lean forwards, which requires the EUC to decelerate from under the rider and to exert a forwards torque onto the rider, which occurs in response to the rider exerting a backwards torque onto the EUC (in spite of the fact that many riders are not aware of this, since it is how people lean forwards on solid ground, by initially pressing with the heels). Using a soft mode delays both the deceleration and the forwards torque from the EUC while the EUC allows the rider's backwards torque to initially tilt the EUC backwards. Then once the rider is leaned forwards and exerts a forwards torque onto the EUC, there's yet another delay while the EUC allows the rider's forward torque to tilt the EUC forwards. 

Due to a chance encounter on a bike trail, a guy let me try out his V11 with jump and power pads, which I rode for a few minutes without issue, other that I used support to mount and launch since my hiking boots barely fit under the jump pads. I didn't have any issues with riding or dismounting. It was set to hard mode.

These issues are part of the reason that the Inmotion V13 reduces top speed from 52 mph to 33 mph (GPS) speed if the pedals are set to soft (0%) mode.

Right - but it is exactly this delay, allowing the frame of the EUC to move further and the body of the rider to lean more that allows for stronger and ultimately more response accelerations. Yes, you need to wait just a moment longer for your new input to apply, but as a result you get a greater torque thereafter. The net effect is that soft modes give you access to more power. I'm well aware of the effects they have - Begode wheels with Race + soft mode will swing quite a ways in either direction before generating significant torque.

The things you mention - the initial delay when the rider leans forward and tilts the wheel backwards, then again when it starts to lean forwards with the rider, all "sort of" exist in hard mode too, as it pertains to the motion of the rider's body - they are just less obvious, as they instead translate into an acceleration in either direction.  If I had to come up with an analogy, i'd imagine a ball on a ramp - yes, the straight ramp is the "shortest" path, but it's not the "fastest" path - that's the steep one that doesn't initially move the ball forward very much, but the speed it gains allows it to win the race. The same applies for soft EUC modes - for that initial moment, they move less than soft mode, but that greater applied torque afterwards results in more responsive control when it comes to "bigger" movements.

Navigating a tight, slow offroad trail is probably harder and more work on softer modes, while getting up to 50kph from a traffic light or hard braking will be easier on softer modes. It's a trade-off. Similarly, smaller wheels make it easier to get torque, but are less resilient to difficult bumps and terrain. It appears to me the biggest no-downside win comes from minimising the weight of the EUC, but that's also the hardest/most expensive task for a manufacturer.

Edited March 9 by Panzer04

[rcgldr]

Just now, Panzer04 said:

Right - but it is exactly this delay, allowing the frame of the EUC to move further and the body of the rider to lean more

That delay is delaying how long it takes for the rider to lean forwards. The quicker the EUC responds to riders inputs, the quicker the rider can lean forwards or the further the rider can lean forwards in the same amount of time. The Brachistochrone analogy doesn't apply because gravity is the only force involved, while leaning forwards on an EUC involves the forwards torque response to the rider's backwards torque input in addition to gravity.

Absent the reaction time, it would make sense if the rider can't lean forwards far enough to get the maximum acceleration possible on an EUC, such as a light rider and|or a heavy EUC, where a soft mode (or pedal tilt) would allow the rider to lean further forwards which would result in more acceleration after the initial delay. I'm not sure how much difference a 5° forwards tilt makes. EUC girl rides EUCs that weigh as much as her and she uses a soft or medium mode for extreme lean angle:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BWe9laWYO8A

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ed5tLTjN-SA

 

Edited March 9 by rcgldr

[Rider1]

3 hours ago, rcgldr said:

soft mode (or pedal tilt) would allow the rider to lean further forwards

But only if using powerpads (or extensively grabbing the sides of the wheel with you calves), right? Because otherwise you can't move your COG beyond the front end of the pedals, which everyone - no matter which weight - should be able to do.

[Panzer04]

3 hours ago, rcgldr said:

That delay is delaying how long it takes for the rider to lean forwards. The quicker the EUC responds to riders inputs, the quicker the rider can lean forwards or the further the rider can lean forwards in the same amount of time. The Brachistochrone analogy doesn't apply because gravity is the only force involved, while leaning forwards on an EUC involves the forwards torque response to the rider's backwards torque input in addition to gravity.

Absent the reaction time, it would make sense if the rider can't lean forwards far enough to get the maximum acceleration possible on an EUC, such as a light rider and|or a heavy EUC, where a soft mode (or pedal tilt) would allow the rider to lean further forwards which would result in more acceleration after the initial delay. I'm not sure how much difference a 5° forwards tilt makes. EUC girl rides EUCs that weigh as much as her and she uses a soft or medium mode for extreme lean angle:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BWe9laWYO8A

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ed5tLTjN-SA

 

I don't feel like actually doing the math here. All I can say is that as I perceive it, softer modes universally feel like less effort when it comes to accelerations and the like. This is an opinion pretty much universally shared amongst most riders. Perhaps in a bench test where a rider can reach the limits of their EUC in a full lean, in hard mode, might make that accelerate just as hard, in practice on current heavyweight EUCs pretty much no one is capable of overleaning them on flat ground acceleration. Therefore, the tilt from softer modes (+ whatever minor amount of extra torque they get from the weight offset) is presumably beneficial to wheel performance.

Another thing to consider is that there are considerations in pad placements - in theory, looser pad setups are good for maximal accelerations, but they cause problems with finer control of the wheel. Wheel tilt allows you to use a "tighter" pad setup for situations that require finer control, but still allows you to lean further out. Also, for most people ankle dorsiflexion and foot comfort becomes problematic at extreme leans - that's another thing pedal tilt aids.

I think, ultimately, from a physics perspective hard mode is probably beneficial - you can almost look at it as the wheel "backing up" to help you get forward, if you press backwards hard enough to get into a forward lean. In practice, other things become a concern and lead to softer modes being better when you're trying to achieve high acceleration or braking motions.

FWIW, I went and checked out an EUC race video (eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKcHvUd8BtA)- I don't know what wheel mode most people are using, but I can tell that the majority of races have *significant* forward pedal tilts (either soft mode or preset offset), which implies to me that they perceive a tilted pedal as a benefit (obviously forward-tilted because they want better acceleration, but the same would apply in reverse).

[Planemo]

6 hours ago, Rider1 said:

Because otherwise you can't move your COG beyond the front end of the pedals, which everyone - no matter which weight - should be able to do.

Surely you can? Because you have a force accelerating you, preventing you from falling. Granted, you couldn't do it static, although I would still like to see someone trying a Kuji lean with both feet on the floor. Oh hang on Michael J has done that 

 

[techyiam]

14 minutes ago, Planemo said:

6 hours ago, Rider1 said:

Because otherwise you can't move your COG beyond the front end of the pedals, which everyone - no matter which weight - should be able to do.

Surely you can? Because you have a force accelerating you, preventing you from falling. Granted, you couldn't do it static, although I would still like to see someone trying a Kuji lean with both feet on the floor.

 

Let's put this into context.

 

6 hours ago, Rider1 said:

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

soft mode (or pedal tilt) would allow the rider to lean further forwards

But only if using powerpads (or extensively grabbing the sides of the wheel with you calves), right? Because otherwise you can't move your COG beyond the front end of the pedals, which everyone - no matter which weight - should be able to do.

 

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Let's put this into context.

What context? Lost me!

[rcgldr]

7 hours ago, Rider1 said:

But only if using power pads (or extensively grabbing the sides of the wheel with you calves), right? Because otherwise you can't move your COG beyond the front end of the pedals, which everyone - no matter which weight - should be able to do.

That should be you can't move your center of force beyond the edges of the pedals. If accelerating at 1/4 g, then the center of mass will be located along a 14° line ahead of the center of force. When accelerating, the rider has to exert a forwards torque onto the EUC (which coexists with the EUC exerting a backwards torque onto the rider), and if accelerating at 1/4 g, the rider would actually be leaning a bit more than 14°, and the center of force shifted towards the front edge of the pedals. In this video, Lando accelerates at about 1/3 g using just pedals on an 18XL, leaning about 22°: about 18.4° for acceleration and about 3.6° for torque. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAEOnvDNaYw&t=808s

 

Edited March 9 by rcgldr

[techyiam]

33 minutes ago, Planemo said:

What context? Lost me!

 

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Surely you can? Because you have a force accelerating you, preventing you from falling. Granted, you couldn't do it static, although I would still like to see someone trying a Kuji lean with both feet on the floor. Oh hang on Michael J has done that 

 

Without pads, how much beyond the front edge of the pedals are you talking about when accelerating modestly?

And if the pedals are mounted at axle height, once the COG is beyond the front pedal edge, the rider would lose balance and fall off the front.

Edited March 9 by techyiam

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Without pads, how much beyond the front edge of the pedals are you talking about when accelerating modestly?

I dunno really, just that a Kuji lean looks to have a CofG well ahead of the front of the pedals. But I think what rcgldr is saying is that it is a 'false' CofG, because the acceleration is taking most of it away?

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I dunno really, just that a Kuji lean looks to have a CofG well ahead of the front of the pedals. But I think what rcgldr is saying is that it is a 'false' CofG, because the acceleration is taking most of it away?

OK.

@Rider1 was speaking specifically to the case when no pads are used.

Kuji Rolls was using power pads. Without power pads, Kuji Rolls wouldn't have been able to lean as much as he did.