14 vs 16 vs 18 vs 20 in

[alcatraz]

Hey fellas...

I'm curious about the difference in amount of "rider input" for these wheel diameters.

More specifically the newer wheels with for example 18in (14in) rims and larger tires that make them 20in. 

Does a modern 16in wheel that's classified as 18in (Patton, C-Mini, Extreme, T4, V14) actually "feel" closer to an older 18in wheel (MSuper, 18XL) than an older 16in wheel (Tesla, 16S, V10)?

I'm speaking only in terms of "rider input".

My older 16in wheels do not require power pads (for me). So is it safe to say I won't feel the need to use power pads on newer 16in wheels? What about a hypothetical 14in suspension wheel? Would that require powet pads?

If yes, doesn't that mean that the diameter isn't directly proportional to the amount of rider input needed for the same acceleration/desceleration?

Thanks. 

[UniVehje]

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

More specifically the newer wheels with for example 18in (14in) rims and larger tires that make them 20in. 

18 and 20 inch tires are the same size if we speak of classification. Yes, some manufacturers started to use 19” and 20” monikers for 14” rim wheels and based it on real diameter. But that doesn’t mean those with 18” moniker have real diameter of 18”. They don’t. None of them are 18” by real diameter, not even 18x2.5” 18XL. You can have small differences between tire models and a bit more if you add knobbies, but not that much. You can think of different 14” tires with modern width of around 3” to be about 19-19.5” in real diameter (and has nothing to do with its marketing diameter) and knobby tires as being roughly 19.5-20” in real width. So for your question rider input the answer is they feel almost the same with exception of narrower 2.5” tires maybe  slightly different. Tire width has a much more drastic effect on riding, but that’s for turning behaviour. 

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Does a modern 16in wheel that's classified as 18in (Patton, C-Mini, Extreme, T4, V14) actually "feel" closer to an older 18in wheel (MSuper, 18XL) than an older 16in wheel (Tesla, 16S, V10)?

Forget the classification by manufacturers. That’s just marketing speak. Only focus on the actual tire markings. They do feel very different than narrower tires but as for rider input needed for acceleration, they should feel more reactive. Remember, the old 18” tires are not 18” in real diameter either. So those wheels will react slower than 16x3” tires. Tesla and 16S and V8 have 16x2.125” tires and will feel very reactive. V10 has 16x2.5” tire, which is noticeably bigger and can be felt in riding. 

The answer to your question is that these wheels that you mentioned will feel much more reactive compared to 14” rim wheels. If the rim has 2” difference, the tire also has the same difference no matter what marketing size it has. Wider tire will of course be a bit larger. Among the wheels called 16” you definitely should make a difference between 3” wide and narrower tires. Tesla or V8 will feel much more reactive than those wheel with wider tires. But these 3” wide wheels on 12” rims still are not the same as those on 14” rims. 

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

My older 16in wheels do not require power pads (for me). So is it safe to say I won't feel the need to use power pads on newer 16in wheels? What about a hypothetical 14in suspension wheel? Would that require powet pads?

I have experience on V8, V10s, 18XL, 16X, V11 and S22. Your old wheel seems to be V8. I bought my 16X (same size tire as the wheels you listed) after I had been riding V11 for a while (same size tire as those marketed as 20”) and I’ve also ridden it after riding a lot with S22. I can say that if I had ridden 16X after only riding a V8, I would have probably felt it was sluggish at first. But riding a 16X after riding a bigger wheel, it feels very peppy. Need of power pads is a matter of preference and learning. I definitely think that 16X size wheels do not need power pads. But then again I don’t need them on my S22 either. People seem to think you need them because they see others on YouTube using them. And on larger wheels they do help on steep hills or if you really need to accelerate really fast. If you get a new wheel with 3” wide tire on a 12” rim, it will feel sluggish at first compared to your old V8. But if you just keep riding for 100-200 km and not put power pads on, you will get used to it. Then your old wheel will feel very reactive again. And you will feel a big difference compared to 14” wheels. I would not need power pads on these wheels while sometimes I have wanted them on my bigger wheel. 

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

If yes, doesn't that mean that the diameter isn't directly proportional to the amount of rider input needed for the same acceleration/desceleration?

There are some other factors in play but in general tire diameter is the biggest factor in how much you need to lean for the same acceleration. You can tune this feel by setting pedals to harder or softer. That means you can set the pedals to dip along with the rider slightly and thus making it easier to lean. But that’s just fine tuning compared to tire diameter. 

[alcatraz]

Thank you so very much. The short answer then is that they feel closer to their older counterparts, and not by their newer classification.

In the older days you could see 18in kingsongs and even today 18in V11 without power pads. Yet, most 16in wheels today come with them stock. It makes one think...

[alcatraz]

(I've got V8, Mten3, MCM5, Tesla v1, MSX84. I actually use all four Gotways, but I do tend to use the MCM5 and MSX the most.)

Edited November 13, 2023 by alcatraz

[OldFartRides]

I get that P.P.’s give the rider more leverage and also help keep you on the wheel while blasting rough terrain and jumping, but for old farts like me with sedate riding style I don’t think they are necessary and may even make lower leg and ankle injuries more likely. These types of injuries were greatly reduced with the advent of “release” ski bindings. 
 I’m sure this isn’t news to the more seasoned riders, but  more leverage on the pedals can also be achieved adjusting foot position forwards or backwards “on the fly”.