Kingsong S20/S22/Pro, S19, S16, S14: An idea to improve the durability of the rollers / sliders.

[techyiam]

We know car tires are very durable.

Perhaps Kingsong can consider making the small roller wheels out of aluminum alloy or similar hard material, instead of the current polymer-based roller wheels, and use a durable rubber material to line the inside of the tracks in the battery boxes, where the rollers would roll on. Or put in rubber tracks in the battery boxes.

Edited September 9, 2023 by techyiam

[Ruben De Waele]

so I looked around and apparently kingsong released a V2 of the s22-pro slider mechanism the only place I've seen it mentioned is myewheel.com tho and I haven't found a place to buy the sliders separately.

however I think they are onto something with this new design, before the rollers only contacted 2 sides for each rail on the slider system.

now they contact 3 sides on each rail I think this will improve durability and smoothness of the new rails.

however still no good way to keep the sliders clean :/ 

they mentioned these improvements;

• Four guide pulleys with a diameter of 11mm are added to the side, which can keep the slide rail parallel to the battery box during the up-and-down displacement process, reduce friction and increase the smoothness.
• All the pulleys are changed to the outside of the slide rail, and the original single slide rail is changed as a mechanism into a battery box as a whole, which can reduce the problem of non-parallel processing errors caused by the two measurement slide rails.
• The screw-fixed pulley is replaced by a spring to fix the pulley, which is convenient for after-sales disassembly and assembly of the pulley.
• The pulley rubber material is changed to white nylon material.

What do you guys think?

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Ruben De Waele

[okvp]

A problem with a new slider design is that there is still opening on the top of sliders where small rocks or even a screw can enter in a roller race and wedge out or break the rubber on the roller. Here is an example what happened someone's sliders when a screw got in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7hbwBpevNA

Other damage for those sliders in youtube may have been small rocks entering top of the slider and wedging the rubber out of the bearing, if those are round enough there might be no visible signs on the rollers. Or/and damage might be created of heavy bending (horisontal) forces coming from pedals when doing high bottoming out jumps, which may rip rollers plastic apart from bearings. I think Kingsong is trying to compensate those forces whit that latest roller design with two small perpendicular rollers.

I sealed the upper opening of slides with a 2mm rubber sheet cut to shape. I had a similar seal in the PRO slides, they were ridden approx. 1000km (approx. 50% sand paths), only two rollers were broken when I opened them for changing the tire and installing the Hou slides. The broken rolls seemed have a casting defect. I switched to the Hou slides because I wanted a full suspension travel.

First I cutted the rubber sheet to shape, put the slides with two rollers in the slot and glued the sheet in right place with a super glue then I finished sheets with cutter to fit the holes. Then I drilled a small 2,3mm hole through rubber in the end of the slide and fixed the rubber with a small rivet.

 Sliders can also be made somewhat sandproof by addind a slighly curved thin plastic sheet between slider and the slider chassis (where the wheel is attached to). But I don't think that the sand is a problem...

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by okvp

[Rawnei]

On 9/13/2023 at 11:24 AM, Ruben De Waele said:

so I looked around and apparently kingsong released a V2 of the s22-pro slider mechanism the only place I've seen it mentioned is myewheel.com tho and I haven't found a place to buy the sliders separately.

however I think they are onto something with this new design, before the rollers only contacted 2 sides for each rail on the slider system.

now they contact 3 sides on each rail I think this will improve durability and smoothness of the new rails.

however still no good way to keep the sliders clean :/ 

they mentioned these improvements;

• Four guide pulleys with a diameter of 11mm are added to the side, which can keep the slide rail parallel to the battery box during the up-and-down displacement process, reduce friction and increase the smoothness.
• All the pulleys are changed to the outside of the slide rail, and the original single slide rail is changed as a mechanism into a battery box as a whole, which can reduce the problem of non-parallel processing errors caused by the two measurement slide rails.
• The screw-fixed pulley is replaced by a spring to fix the pulley, which is convenient for after-sales disassembly and assembly of the pulley.
• The pulley rubber material is changed to white nylon material.

What do you guys think?

 

Very interesting, I am assuming that their experience and testing over time led to this type of design, would be very interesting to hear their reasoning (which we never will I guess), nice to see them going over to circlips.

[Rawnei]

On 9/13/2023 at 11:24 AM, Ruben De Waele said:

so I looked around and apparently kingsong released a V2 of the s22-pro slider mechanism the only place I've seen it mentioned is myewheel.com tho and I haven't found a place to buy the sliders separately.

however I think they are onto something with this new design, before the rollers only contacted 2 sides for each rail on the slider system.

now they contact 3 sides on each rail I think this will improve durability and smoothness of the new rails.

however still no good way to keep the sliders clean :/ 

they mentioned these improvements;

• Four guide pulleys with a diameter of 11mm are added to the side, which can keep the slide rail parallel to the battery box during the up-and-down displacement process, reduce friction and increase the smoothness.
• All the pulleys are changed to the outside of the slide rail, and the original single slide rail is changed as a mechanism into a battery box as a whole, which can reduce the problem of non-parallel processing errors caused by the two measurement slide rails.
• The screw-fixed pulley is replaced by a spring to fix the pulley, which is convenient for after-sales disassembly and assembly of the pulley.
• The pulley rubber material is changed to white nylon material.

What do you guys think?

 

I have some new information regarding the sliders pictured above, I have bought the latest S22 Pro sliders from MyEwheel and verified all this is information I'm writing with them which in turn have verified everything with King Song representative so it's 100% verified information I'm writing here.

The image above was just a render from King Song, it never went into production, King Song instead decided to change this design before shipping the new sliders out.

This is how the final version of the sliders looks like instead (photos courtesy of ecodrift), this exact design is what I currently have at home, I'm waiting for my new S22 Pro battery boxes to arrive so I have not tried them yet:

So a couple of things are different here:

1) Not all wheels point in the same direction but as you can see the bottom front 3 wheels point same direction and upper rear 3 wheels point same direction, I'm guessing this adds the desired stability but also keeps the zig-zag wheel design, a compromise that might work good?

2) The big wheels don't use circlips as originally planned, they still use screws but the screws are beefier and now has a hex head instead of Philips head, the wheel and the screw is independent from each other meaning if you swap a wheel you keep the old screw.

3) The small stabilizing side wheels (4 per slider) those use a screw with a circlip.

4) The wheels have a more pointed profile instead of rounded, I don't know if the material has changed, if it's POM, Nylon or something else.

So this would make these sliders the third version of the S22 Pro sliders that King Song designed and actually produced, currently they market the S22 Pro as "V2", the S22 Pro V2 includes the new GF motor and these sliders but the sliders are actually 3rd generation Pro sliders.

King Song currently has no plans to design different sliders, this is the absolute latest version of their sliders, you can purchase the sliders alone from MyEwheel if you like which they funnily enough call the "V2 Sliders", naming is all over the place King Song style. MyEwheel also sells the new GF motor which I think overall has a good improvement in the waterproofing department with how the bearings and oil seal is protected.

https://myewheel.com/kingsong-s22-pro-v2-sliders/

https://myewheel.com/kingsong-s22-pro-v2-motor/

I've told MyEwheel that it might be a good idea to update this information on their website to avoid further confusion, they still show the above render on the S22 Pro product page.

When it comes to dust protection, I'm prototyping small 3D printed parts that can be glued onto the sliders both top and bottom and on which you can glue some felt fabric to, something like that would be very good for protecting the wheels against dirt and dust and prolong their life a lot, however it's proving a bit tricky since there's not a lot of space to glue the parts onto and worst case scenario glue will not be strong enough due to that but it's too early to tell, here is how the sliders look naked:

[okvp]

I think those sliders might have been assembled in a wrong way (pun) If there is two different type sliders like in a lower picture they should be assembled on the same side. That way the pair of wheels (in different sliders) will give support on both riding directions.

Imo the circlips are better, easier to change wheels, no need to melt the Loctite.

I don't think that the sand or dirt is doing much harm to the rollers, it is probably the small rocks which can enter the top of the slider and wedge the rubber out of the bearing. This new design is not good for a top shield as shown in a couple post up. It seems like that top rollers should be removed for to have a shield.

Small rollers are supposed to take out the side forces coming from e.g. jumps. 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by okvp

[Rawnei]

16 minutes ago, okvp said:

I think those sliders might have been assembled in a wrong way (pun) If there is two different type sliders like in a lower picture they should be assembled on the same side. That way the pair of wheels (in different sliders) will give support on both riding directions.

Not sure what you mean? The photos are from ecodrift and it's a wheel that was assembled in King Song factory, looks correct to me, if you install the sliders yourself they are marked where to be installed, L F, L B, R F and R B, difficult to install them wrong.

17 minutes ago, okvp said:

I don't think that the sand or dirt is doing much harm to the rollers, it is probably the small rocks which can enter the top of the slider and wedge the rubber out of the bearing. This new design is not good for a top shield as shown in a couple post up. It seems like that top rollers should be removed for to have a shield.

Small dirt particles can not only grind the wheels but can also grind the paint in the channels, eventually there will be so many irregularities that it affects performance, that is what happened to my battery boxes after 2 years of riding and why I'm getting new ones.

You don't need to remove anything, I already have a functional design, just need my new boxes to check all the tolerances.

[okvp]

58 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Not sure what you mean? The photos are from ecodrift and it's a wheel that was assembled in King Song factory, looks correct to me, if you install the sliders yourself they are marked where to be installed, L F, L B, R F and R B, difficult to install them wrong.

Small dirt particles can not only grind the wheels but can also grind the paint in the channels, eventually there will be so many irregularities that it affects performance, that is what happened to my battery boxes after 2 years of riding and why I'm getting new ones.

You don't need to remove anything, I already have a functional design, just need my new boxes to check all the tolerances.

I mean directional support of pair of rollers. In Hou Ningings sliders pair of rollers support both riding directions (lower rollers) In your picture one direction (upper rollers). 

Yes sand is abrasive and it is wearing rails slowly at least if rollers are actually rolling, not sliding. My 1000km ridden rails didn't show any sign of wear. But small rocks (or what ever debris) entering from top opening can break the roller or wedge it out of bearing like in this case  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7hbwBpevNA

[okvp]

However in Myewheel picture there seems to be four different sliders, so they are probably assembled in a right way. Braking is inducing more force than acceleration, that might be the reason for four different slider configurations, although it is more expensive to manufacture and assemble four different rails than two.

Edited October 13, 2023 by okvp

[Ruben De Waele]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:21 AM, Rawnei said:

I have some new information regarding the sliders pictured above, I have bought the latest S22 Pro sliders from MyEwheel and verified all this is information I'm writing with them which in turn have verified everything with King Song representative so it's 100% verified information I'm writing here.

The image above was just a render from King Song, it never went into production, King Song instead decided to change this design before shipping the new sliders out.

This is how the final version of the sliders looks like instead (photos courtesy of ecodrift), this exact design is what I currently have at home, I'm waiting for my new S22 Pro battery boxes to arrive so I have not tried them yet:

So a couple of things are different here:

1) Not all wheels point in the same direction but as you can see the bottom front 3 wheels point same direction and upper rear 3 wheels point same direction, I'm guessing this adds the desired stability but also keeps the zig-zag wheel design, a compromise that might work good?

2) The big wheels don't use circlips as originally planned, they still use screws but the screws are beefier and now has a hex head instead of Philips head, the wheel and the screw is independent from each other meaning if you swap a wheel you keep the old screw.

3) The small stabilizing side wheels (4 per slider) those use a screw with a circlip.

4) The wheels have a more pointed profile instead of rounded, I don't know if the material has changed, if it's POM, Nylon or something else.

So this would make these sliders the third version of the S22 Pro sliders that King Song designed and actually produced, currently they market the S22 Pro as "V2", the S22 Pro V2 includes the new GF motor and these sliders but the sliders are actually 3rd generation Pro sliders.

King Song currently has no plans to design different sliders, this is the absolute latest version of their sliders, you can purchase the sliders alone from MyEwheel if you like which they funnily enough call the "V2 Sliders", naming is all over the place King Song style. MyEwheel also sells the new GF motor which I think overall has a good improvement in the waterproofing department with how the bearings and oil seal is protected.

https://myewheel.com/kingsong-s22-pro-v2-sliders/

https://myewheel.com/kingsong-s22-pro-v2-motor/

I've told MyEwheel that it might be a good idea to update this information on their website to avoid further confusion, they still show the above render on the S22 Pro product page.

When it comes to dust protection, I'm prototyping small 3D printed parts that can be glued onto the sliders both top and bottom and on which you can glue some felt fabric to, something like that would be very good for protecting the wheels against dirt and dust and prolong their life a lot, however it's proving a bit tricky since there's not a lot of space to glue the parts onto and worst case scenario glue will not be strong enough due to that but it's too early to tell, here is how the sliders look naked:

hey, t's great to hear some actual conformation from a s22 user, I think those sliders will be a overall improvement in stability and durability at least that is probably as good as the "roller slider" design will get.

Im also looking forward to your 3d printed slider protectors I've seen your earlier 3d print designs and it looked pretty legit to me so props to that.

Hearing that this will be the last iteration of the roller slider design makes me think kingsong is developing a new kind of system for the rumored F-series.

About the motor I've once read about the improvements on the lasted motor design from kingsong but I can't find the source anymore.

This latest design should instead of aluminum have a steel axle and a steel ring outside the bearings to fix the wear and tear after prolonged use, also it should have wider needle-bearings instead of the original ball-bearings. Those needle-bearing are way more resistant to heavy forces and impacts making them way better for off-road and doing jumps. Also it should have better water protection.

I'm pretty sure your motor is that lasted version but can you confirm this pretty please?

I'm looking into improving my s22 to be more durable for doing jumps and heavy off-road and that motor and new slider system looks promising.

one last question, so the bearings in my suspension-linkage are busted and I'm also looking to improve those. a engineer buddy of mine told me it's way better to use brass or copper bushings instead of bearings for said suspension-linkage. have you made any upgrades to this?

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Ruben De Waele said:

hey, t's great to hear some actual conformation from a s22 user, I think those sliders will be a overall improvement in stability and durability at least that is probably as good as the "roller slider" design will get.

Im also looking forward to your 3d printed slider protectors I've seen your earlier 3d print designs and it looked pretty legit to me so props to that.

Hearing that this will be the last iteration of the roller slider design makes me think kingsong is developing a new kind of system for the rumored F-series.

About the motor I've once read about the improvements on the lasted motor design from kingsong but I can't find the source anymore.

This latest design should instead of aluminum have a steel axle and a steel ring outside the bearings to fix the wear and tear after prolonged use, also it should have wider needle-bearings instead of the original ball-bearings. Those needle-bearing are way more resistant to heavy forces and impacts making them way better for off-road and doing jumps. Also it should have better water protection.

I'm pretty sure your motor is that lasted version but can you confirm this pretty please?

I'm looking into improving my s22 to be more durable for doing jumps and heavy off-road and that motor and new slider system looks promising.

one last question, so the bearings in my suspension-linkage are busted and I'm also looking to improve those. a engineer buddy of mine told me it's way better to use brass or copper bushings instead of bearings for said suspension-linkage. have you made any upgrades to this?

I'm finalizing the felt protection for the new sliders as we speak, I've glued them on to mine just need to finalize everything and share it on thingiverse.

This is the improvements on the new GF Motor, this is the latest version motor you can get and I think it fixes the smaller flaws that was on the HH motor, I'm doubtful we will see another iteration of motors for technical reasons unless KS for some reason decide to switch supplier again for other reasons.

Houningning (https://houeuc.com) sells stronger bolts for the linkages for a very affordable price and he also sends new spare bearings together with those, shoot him a message if you like, good price and fast delivery (I found the same bolts more locally but price wasn't much better), other than that I have not looked around for other alternatives.

[Rawnei]

Slider protectors now up on thingiverse:

[Ruben De Waele]

yeah I have the HH motor and the bearings started making knocking sounds good to know I can get a upgrade replacement tho

I already have those bolts you can just order them from aliexpress for less $$$ also you can get all the bolts from there including the ones that hold the suspension spring, Houningning doesn't sell those I think.  They are M6 shoulder dia 8mm, 75mm long+ M6 shoulder dia 8mm, 80mm long

-edit you also need copper or brass M8 washers if you use those, it also makes it so the bolts don't squeeze the suspension spring so less friction.

and for the rest its M8 shoulder diameter 10mm, bolt length 20mm, 25mm and 30mm long for the 3 other pairs.

those are all 12.9 grade carbon steel the same mr Hou sells on fb but cheaper and delivery took around 10 days for me

here is the link; https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/4000523679119.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.16.21ef18027NSyUv&gatewayAdapt=glo2vnm

you can also buy the same bearings but cheaper on aliexpress just type in the bearing code, 6600zz

however bearings aren't really durable enough to be used for a linkage suspension system tbh you need bushings for that, well at least if you do big jumps otherwise it would be fine.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Ruben De Waele

[chopsywa]

I think the original pro sliders are not fit for purpose and KS should be sending them to anyone with a S22 Pro who asks free of charge. My S22 is only 3 months old with the older style rollers and after 1 offroad stint (not heavy) and 1100km, the rollers are all worn on the sides, except for 10 rollers I swapped out at 500km. These were my own design, printed in TPU 95A solid and profiled to the inside of the channel. These wear well, but there is obvious side load. I spent a few days designing a new slider rail in CAD with 2 of the rollers rotated 90 degrees axially, to do the same thing that KS have done. One at the top of the motor frame and one at the bottom. The only thing that stopped me proceeding was the cost of getting the CNC work done. I then saw these new sliders, which validates my concern that they were never right and that KS should just give them out to current Pro owners.

This is what my sliders looked like mocked up in plastic. There are two different iterations of TPU rollers. The dirty ones have survived 500km, but they had too much movement on the bearing with the side load. The newest iteration are printed with the bearing inserted part way through so they are fully encapsulated. Thanks to @Julianjc84 for his input, with this modification.

 

 

[macgyvercanada]

KingSong released a video yesterday of assembling 1st batch S16's and you can see the roller set:

[techyiam]

It looks like Kingsong is continuing with the same S20 basic design, which has the inherent flaw that grit and other abrasive and corrosive contaminate can get inside the sliders, since the sliders are not of a sealed design.

You would think in order to improve the situation, they would at least put in a fender with deep side skirts.

I experimented with my S22 stock sliders.

The stock sliders uses a rubber stopper on top of each rail. At the rear, the rubber stoppers can act as suspension travel limit. However, they also prevent some debris from getting inside the sliders.

These rubber stoppers add an incredible amount of stiction. However, with them install, it help dramatically in the functionality of the sliders.

I went for a ride in the rain without the rubber stoppers, and the result was that the sliders started to make gritty / abrasive noises after only one ride in the rain.

I had to clean and relube, but added back the rubber stoppers, and I have been riding for days in the rain, and the sliders have not deteriorated.

And I did not ride off-road, just on bike routes, all paved, albeit on wet foliage in some parts.