TUBELESS TIRES?!?!

[UPONIT]

Okay. What is the prevailing wisdom regarding tubeless tires and EUCs?

Twice now I have had a rapid decompression of my Mten4 tire. The stock tire was tubeless with a max PSI of 50. The street tire I have on has an operating psi of 10, which seems super duper low, but what do i know?

Anyway, both times I just lucked out and happened to be going along a tiled path in my basement, so I didn't even fall. I felt it as it happened and it actually rode fine for a second on the rim and flat.

The first time was months ago. This time was a couple days ago. After the first time, I used Bead Seal for extra precaution. Now that it's happened again, I'm paranoid it's gonna happen while i'm riding at a faster speed on the street and I'm gonna go down.

I know tube tires can get flats also, but this just seems too sketchy the more I think about it. I feel like switching back to the stock tire because 50 psi seems like it would have more holding power? Is that a bad assumption?

Any and all thoughts/advice/commentary welcomed.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, UPONIT said:

I know tube tires can get flats also

Any idea what caused the flats? What the end result was for the tire? I think tubed tires have less of a chance of rapidly deflating IMO.

[UPONIT]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Any idea what caused the flats? What the end result was for the tire? I think tubed tires have less of a chance of rapidly deflating IMO.

I think the seal at the rim just "unsealed?" There wasn't a hole in the tire, or gouge in the rubber lip that runs around the edges. So just a momentary "fart?" 

I 100% agree with you about tubed. The more I think about the fact that any pressure retention depends on a rubber lip being held against a painted rim by pressure alone (or with rim tape and/or liquid rim sealant) seems REALLY questionable. It would be different if there was more than one wheel, as with most EUC issues...

Also, while I've got you here, I don't have much experience with tubeless tires. What about the tires makes one of them run at 10 psi and one of them run at 50 psi?!?

Thanks for the input!

[Punxatawneyjoe]

52 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Also, while I've got you here, I don't have much experience with tubeless tires. What about the tires makes one of them run at 10 psi and one of them run at 50 psi?!?

I would assume the low psi tire is something equivalent to a atv style where is for low weight soft sidewall, absorbs the bumps but sucks at cornering. The 50 psi one probably has a higher load range and has a stiffer sidewall. I am currently running the Michelin pilot street 2 on my v-13 with a tube inside of it. The tire is a scooter tire so it has a stiff sidewall and the tube inside of it makes it stiffer so I'm running it at around 32 psi. I think max is 45 or something. I abuse it off road all of the time and so far so good at 1k miles. Tubeless is good if the rim is designed properly and the tire is of good quality but i feel like having a tube inside add an additional layer of security. i definitely don't want the tire blowing off the rim at 50mph.

[Uras]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

atv style where is for low weight soft sidewall

atv tires are also huge volume, this makes a big difference to the psi they need to protect the rim. Tire volume is probably the biggest factor of necessary pressure, then weight. A 1" (25mm) bicycle tire will probably need around 100psi. I run 26psi in the 3" tire on my 16x. When I was learning on my partners 14d (2.125") I had to run 39psi. I'm 85kg with gear; jumping curbs and dropping off them is the biggest hit that tire takes. 

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

The 50 psi one probably has a higher load range and has a stiffer sidewall

Generally a stiffer sidewall can also run much lower pressures than a soft sidewall. 

You're right re the use of a tube adding stiffness to the tire; these can also run less pressure than the same tire without a tube.

Tubeless tires generally have stiffer sidewalls to minimise air loss via the sidewalls. Tubeless tires also have a different bead, designed to work in concert with a tubeless wheel; this is to minimise air loss via the tire / rim seal. I don't know if a tubeless can run less pressure than a non tubeless with tube - I would think they'd be pretty close. I do know that in the mtb world there is a perception that tubeless can run at lower pressures; most of those dudes who run the lower pressures seem to replace rims fairly often too.

Reading the op's problem it sounds as though the tire is burping - the bead is breaking contact with the rim. I imagine this is because either the wheel or the tire (or both) are tube type

Edited July 29, 2023 by Uras

[UPONIT]

1 hour ago, Uras said:

atv tires are also huge volume, this makes a big difference to the psi they need to protect the rim. Tire volume is probably the biggest factor of necessary pressure, then weight. A 1" (25mm) bicycle tire will probably need around 100psi. I run 26psi in the 3" tire on my 16x. When I was learning on my partners 14d (2.125") I had to run 39psi. I'm 85kg with gear; jumping curbs and dropping off them is the biggest hit that tire takes. 

Generally a stiffer sidewall can also run much lower pressures than a soft sidewall. 

You're right re the use of a tube adding stiffness to the tire; these can also run less pressure than the same tire without a tube.

Tubeless tires generally have stiffer sidewalls to minimise air loss via the sidewalls. Tubeless tires also have a different bead, designed to work in concert with a tubeless wheel; this is to minimise air loss via the tire / rim seal. I don't know if a tubeless can run less pressure than a non tubeless with tube - I would think they'd be pretty close. I do know that in the mtb world there is a perception that tubeless can run at lower pressures; most of those dudes who run the lower pressures seem to replace rims fairly often too.

Reading the op's problem it sounds as though the tire is burping - the bead is breaking contact with the rim. I imagine this is because either the wheel or the tire (or both) are tube type

Thanks for the input. Both tires and the wheel are designed for tubeless. And one tire says operating psi =10, the other says max psi = 50. They are little scooter tires and both seem equally thick-walled. The 10 psi is a smooth tread and the stock is an off road knobby.

I think you are correct about the the burping, though. In my mind 10 psi (the one where this happens) doesn't seem like enough pressure to keep the bead tight to the rim? Also, the wheel is a (BEGODE) painted number that doesn't scream precision craftsmanship... 

[Uras]

That's a doozy. 10 psi sounds way too low for a street tire for any scooter (you said it's a scooter tire). Are you able to post details about the tire size and make? Likewise, 50 psi sounds way too high for an off road tire. I'm assuming 50 psi is the maximum, which has nothing to do with a good pressure for you to be running. Depending on your weight, tire size, and whether you slam into curbs or not, I'd expect something between 24 and maybe 40 (if you're really big) psi.

In the mtb world burping usually happens when using wide tires on skinny rims or not enough air in the tire. Some tires are just a bit too big for the rim too. The tire doesn't sit tight enough on the rim, you hit a decent bump (coming off a curb for example) or turn really hard and the bead of the tire pulls off the rim momentarily.

It could also be that the begode tubeless rim isn't a good fit for the tubeless tire.

So, post the details about the tire you're trying to use now, also your riding weight and if you ride of curbs etc. If you're close to my weight (85kg geared up) I can give you a ball park figure. You should also know that the tire gauge you're using isn't necessarily accurate. That doesn't matter much if you use the same gauge all the time and find a good pressure according to that gauge. Basically you want the tire to maintain it's form (a bit flat at the contact patch) while it's  running on a flat surface and deform a bit when you hit a bump or drop off a curb. Hopefully that's also enough to protect the rim and keep the tire on. If you do jumps or slam into curbs because you're learning, you just have to run higher pressures and live with the hard ride and some loss of traction. The tire and your legs are the only suspension you have. I can tell my partner if her euc or mtb or scooter tires need more air when I watch her ride. She's not a hard rider so seeing her tires on a flat ride is pretty accurate. She can't do the same for me, so I ask her to film the tire while I'm riding flat and then dropping off a curb etc.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Uras

[alcatraz]

Use another tubeless tire perhaps. 10psi sounds like you're a very lightweight guy. That means you need a tire with softer sidewalls, which tubeless usually doesn't have. 

Worst case just run a tube and a regular tire.

[UPONIT]

Stock tire: TUOVT knobby 90/65-6.5, nylon standard rim 2.5", 4PR tubeless. 185kg max at 50 psi.

Current tire: CLEVER street "racing" tire 90/65-6.5, operating pressure 10 psi, max to seat bead 50 psi

No curb jumping. The Mten4 is too little for that IMHO. The tire is only 11" diameter. My geared up weight is around 240. Both times it deflated I was on a super smooth tile surface going slow, fortunately. 

Maybe "operating pressure" of 10 psi is a midpoint or something? What would be the downside of running it at 20 or 30 psi if I'm not doing any rough riding? Would it be MORE likely to burp?

I feel like the rim is just not cooperative with the bead?

IS there a tubed tire that works with the Mten4? @Clem604?

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, UPONIT said:

Current tire: CLEVER street "racing" tire 90/65-6.5, operating pressure 10 psi, max to seat bead 50 psi

I took a look at this tire on e-bay. Basically it's an unrated tire, meaning it has no rated load range or speed range. It does state that it's "not for highway use" which means it would probably come apart at high speed. I don't think it would harm it riding it at 20psi but without any ratings, there is no telling what it would do at any speed with a 240lb rider on it.  the tire is 'sketchy" at best.

[Clem604]

8 hours ago, UPONIT said:

IS there a tubed tire that works with the Mten4? @Clem604?

I'm not sure TBH but I'm assuming any 11 inch e-scooter tire would work? I know that the 11 inch street and off road CST tires would probably work and if your feeling extra spendy then a PMT tire could also work.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Clem604

[UPONIT]

4 hours ago, Clem604 said:

I'm not sure TBH but I'm assuming any 11 inch e-scooter tire would work? I know that the 11 inch street and off road CST tires would probably work and if your feeling extra spendy then a PMT tire could also work.

Do you run the stock tire on yours? If not, what do you run?

[UPONIT]

11 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I took a look at this tire on e-bay. Basically it's an unrated tire, meaning it has no rated load range or speed range. It does state that it's "not for highway use" which means it would probably come apart at high speed. I don't think it would harm it riding it at 20psi but without any ratings, there is no telling what it would do at any speed with a 240lb rider on it.  the tire is 'sketchy" at best.

It feels great to ride on. And it seems to be the street tire of choice for Mten4 riders? I'm gonna ask AR about suggested pressures. 

[Clem604]

14 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Do you run the stock tire on yours? If not, what do you run?

I run a no name AliExpress street tire (90/65-6.5) on my Mten4 and it's been great👍

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqU0qY2

Edited August 1, 2023 by Clem604

[Punxatawneyjoe]

2 hours ago, UPONIT said:

It feels great to ride on. And it seems to be the street tire of choice for Mten4 riders?

I'm sure its awesome, it looks very much like the Michelin pilot 2 i ride on, which i love. You know how it is though. If i say yeah, looks great and you pump it up to 30 psi and ride it at 30mph and it explodes. then i feel like an idiot. I just have to be Joe safety and point out that the suggested 10psi in conjuncture with no weight or speed ratings, which is the standard for tires for safety sake makes it a little sketchy.

[mrelwood]

On 7/29/2023 at 1:38 AM, UPONIT said:

The stock tire was tubeless with a max PSI of 50. The street tire I have on has an operating psi of 10

No matter what the tires say, 50 and especially 10 psi are not suitable pressures for EUC riding!

 The tire might be intended for a toddlers’ kick bike for all we know. I don’t think generic bicycle/motorcycle tires usually even have any operating pressures, other than the max limits or a weight/psi combination.

Besides the tire not staying sealed up, we rely on a specific behavior of the tire to turn that doesn’t happen as well at 10 psi, and we need some level of cushioning to stay on the ground so that the wheel can keep us balanced.

Use a pressure between 25 and 35-40 psi (depending on tire size). No EUC tire has ever been damaged from using it in a reasonable range like this, no matter what the tire says.

A heavy guy on a narrow 16x2.125” tire might fit 50psi, but not on any modern tire size.

[UPONIT]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:13 AM, mrelwood said:

No matter what the tires say, 50 and especially 10 psi are not suitable pressures for EUC riding!

That's why I bolded the "max psi for seating bead = 50psi."  10 seems too low to hold the bead. So somewhere in the 25-30 range for the tire sounds like a good balance of cushion and bead-holding?

@Clem604 If you don't mind: Does your no-name tire have any pressure recs stamped on it? If yes, what are they? And what do you run yours at? Your tire looks exactly like the one I have, which feels and rides great... but has that strange 10psi operating recommendation...

[Clem604]

7 hours ago, UPONIT said:

 

@Clem604 If you don't mind: Does your no-name tire have any pressure recs stamped on it? If yes, what are they? And what do you run yours at? Your tire looks exactly like the one I have, which feels and rides great... but has that strange 10psi operating recommendation...

I'll take a look when I get home from work today. I run mine at 40PSI and they have been great. Any more that than it gets really squirrely at speeds above 20MPH for me as a 200lb rider.

[Uras]

On 8/2/2023 at 5:13 PM, mrelwood said:

Use a pressure between 25 and 35-40 psi

wow, 3.5 inches wide. I assume that the 65 refers to the height of the tire, 65% of 90; it's a pretty low profile tire (for off road). You weigh 240lbs on a relatively low profile tire - I would think you'd need closer to the 35 psi as a starting point as mrelwood has said. 

For a wheel with no suspension I'm surprised they went with that profile. I suppose the extra width still maintains the volume of a taller 3" tire. It lends itself to street more than off road. If it was me @ 187lbs (geared up) I'd probably go the same as my current 3" on the 16x, around 27psi as a starting point. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Uras

[Punxatawneyjoe]

On 8/3/2023 at 3:23 AM, UPONIT said:

but has that strange 10psi operating recommendation

Not really if you consider it's basically a wheel barrel tire. No doubt it has the same belting/braiding as most lawnmower tires. Can you pump it to 35-40 psi and ride it at 20 to 30 mph without it rupturing?.......maybe. The use the term "racing" because it's universal. They could be referring to wheel barrel races. If it were me, i would tube it. It will give it a little tiny bit more safety/durability. Tire rating standards are for the person riding's safety and with a 1 tire vehicle, safety should be a large concern. China has no laws preventing company's from producing and selling completely sub standard products. Their focus is on becoming world dominaters leaders.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Punxatawneyjoe