V13 Wheel bolts question

[2disbetter]

I don't ride my V13 rough or aggressively. I'm not jumping big or dropping off of things. I already have the replacement bolts, but I don't really want to open the wheel up and replace them if I don't have to. 

So what I am wondering is how would I know that my wheel bolts are having a problem? Is there noise or vibration that will accompany things before they break? Apparently, it is not even certain that all wheel bolts are affected. Inmotion is just covering their butts and sending it out to everyone. 

There are 8 bolts in the wheel. The liklihood that all 8 will sheer at once is pretty unrealistic I would imagine. I would have an indication long before that. 

Am I crazy? Should I just replace them? 

 

 

[alcatraz]

Are you talking about the endcaps to the suspension? 

I'm pretty sure someone stripped those by overtightening them, and then the suspension failed. 

You can if you want remove them and add some threadlocker compound,  and use a torque wrench to get them all perfect. 

In the case of stripped threads (U-Stride video), the damage wasn't on the cap side but in the suspension tube side. So that larger part needed replacement.

Edited June 2, 2023 by alcatraz

[2disbetter]

No, this is the wheel bolts. Alien Rides had the wheel bolts sheer when they were riding. Apparently, there was an issue from the factory using the incorrect bolts here that could lead to them sheering. 

All the wheels are supposed to come with the wheel bolts replaced at this point. 

I'm curious if anyone familiar with this issue knows what the symptoms of wheel bolts sheering are. Does the just fall down and you have a horrific crash? Do you feel vibrations and a clear indication that something is not right? 

 

[alcatraz]

Do you mean the bolts that hold the motor side covers on?

[2disbetter]

44 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Do you mean the bolts that hold the motor side covers on?

The 8 bolts that hold the suspension to the motor. 

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, 2disbetter said:

The 8 bolts that hold the suspension to the motor. 

You mean the 4 axle bolts that fasten the slider to the axle on each side. Two sides amount to 8 bolts.

[2disbetter]

14 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You mean the 4 axle bolts that fasten the slider to the axle on each side. Two sides amount to 8 bolts.

Yes exactly. 

[mrelwood]

I think the few cases of sheared bolts I’ve heard of had a clear motor shake before the bolts snapped. When the bolts get loose, the shell and the sensors get to rock back and forth a bit which launches rapid corrections back and forth. The violent shake is probably what snapped the loose bolts in the end.

I think I personally wouldn’t rush switching the bolts if I were to ride as you describe. Like you said, it’s not like they would snap off all together. Try to rock the wheel front and back when it’s on every now and then, and if you feel a shake that the suspension’s slider tightening screws doesn’t solve, time to stop riding and change the bolts.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

The bolts will be fine, only idiots using impact guns on them had the problem. I have jumped the wheel many times and took it off road a bunch and only changed them because i was changing the tire but IMO the new ones were exactly like the old ones so they were probably just as strong. None of them were loose either.

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

only idiots using impact guns on them had the problem.

Hmm.

Inmotion did a full investigation into this issue, and their conclusion is appended below.

The fault was partly attributed to sub-standard bolts. They blamed their suppliers for not providing strong enough bolts and the required countersink angle as Inmotion had specified. This can be due to the supplier deliberately cutting corners to reduce cost, or didn't bother to implement any resemblance of quality control. In any case, Inmotion has now taken steps to ensure a better outcome. Moreover, they also found the tightening torque used was below specs.

Edited June 3, 2023 by techyiam

[Punxatawneyjoe]

18 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Inmotion did a full investigation into this issue, and their conclusion is appended below.

BS, i have seen it.

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

BS, i have seen it.

What have you seen?

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

What have you seen?

The investigation summary that you posted. It's posted on my v13 useful infomation thread. I am just giving my opinion and it is that Inmotion didn't do any sort of investigation, they just overreacted to a few nit wit's that use impact guns for everything. then they figure they would tell a nice story and mail a few hundred more of their axle bolts out and make everyone feel like they did something. I'm sure no Rockwell test was done on the initial bolts. The new ones look exactly like the old ones and have the exact same angle which isn't your standard 90° angle.

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I am just giving my opinion and it is that Inmotion didn't do any sort of investigation, they just overreacted to a few nit wit's that use impact guns for everything. then they figure they would tell a nice story and mail a few hundred more of their axle bolts out and make everyone feel like they did something.

 

Quote

AlienRides

February 3  · 

 

After our team rode the V13 intensively, we found the motor bolts were weak and led to the bolts loosening and cracking. We reported this to Inmotion and have come to a resolution for our V13 preorder customers as well as any future ord

New bolts are being airshipped to us, which are higher grade and better fit the exact dimensions of the motor. We will be replacing the motor bolts on ALL V13’s before they go out to our customers.

 

While diagnosing this issue, we disassembled the V13 numerous times. We have prepared instructions for the process so we can get our full team trained on the process and eliminate any delays in shipping your preorders.

 

Source: Alienrides on Facebook

Edited June 3, 2023 by techyiam

[2disbetter]

I am half between both opinions. I feel like Alien Rides handles their wheels in way most people never will, and when they say intensive they mean it. I don't think their wheel would have ever had problems if it was other people. Plus there is the matter of the V13 that was passed around the California riders over the course of months, and I think even chooch got this wheel. It held up without issue. 

I have the replacement bolts, and I will replace them at the first sign of any issues. I kind of feel like this knee jerk reaction was an extremely affordable gesture for Inmotion and that is why it was done. Sure the factory MIGHT have made this mistake, but when people who replace their bolts see that the bolts are identical it does make  you wonder. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by 2disbetter

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

but when people who replace their bolts see that the bolts are identical it does make  you wonder. 

Some maybe able to differentiate countersink angles, but do you really think people can visually differentiate the differences between the bolts, as far as to the alloying elements content, mechanical processing, and heat treatment, and thus the mechanical properties without testing?

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

kind of feel like this knee jerk reaction was an extremely affordable gesture for Inmotion and that is why it was done.

Do you perform your own repairs to cars, motorcycles, or MTB's? Have you ever wrenched on 8.8, 10.9, or 12.9 bolts?

Are you implying that you believe that the bolts are not substandard?

If the bolts are to specifications, what does Inmotion has to gain by admitting to using substandard axle bolts, and then replacing all of them?

 

Or, are you saying that you know the bolts are substandard, but you don't think it will affect you?

[2disbetter]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If the bolts are to specifications, what does Inmotion has to gain by admitting to using substandard axle bolts, and then replacing all of them?

 

Or, are you saying that you know the bolts are substandard, but you don't think it will affect you?

I'm thinking there was an issue, and the bolt sheared. If they were to standard and this happened, then all of a sudden you have a serious issue. Do you admit that the standard you selected is actually to blame, or do you blame the factory and then send out bolts? I would do that. In this case you could use stronger bolts, or whatever, but upon visual inspection the bolts looks identical. 

This is all conjecture. Inmotion should know what they are doing and I am not truly doubting them, just merely saying that I don't feel the need to change my wheel bolts just yet. 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

I'm thinking there was an issue, and the bolt sheared. If they were to standard and this happened, then all of a sudden you have a serious issue. Do you admit that the standard you selected is actually to blame, or do you blame the factory and then send out bolts? I would do that. In this case you could use stronger bolts, or whatever, but upon visual inspection the bolts looks identical. 

This is all conjecture. Inmotion should know what they are doing and I am not truly doubting them, just merely saying that I don't feel the need to change my wheel bolts just yet. 

Good luck.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

Inmotion said they asked the supplier to change the angle of the bolt head and i assure you, they did not.

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

but do you really think people can visually differentiate the differences between the bolts

Yes, it's quite simple actually. You place the angled head from the old bolt against the angled head from the new one and if the bolts are parallel to each other, they are the same.

This is a standard 90° bolt next to an inmotion bolt.

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Do you perform your own repairs to cars, motorcycles, or MTB's? Have you ever wrenched on 8.8, 10.9, or 12.9 bolts?

Yes, for me.Most of my life.

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

If the bolts are to specifications, what does Inmotion has to gain by admitting to using substandard axle bolts, and then replacing all of them?

They gain the fact they did something about a potential problem. It's called getting out in front of it and cost them nothing for the first few hundred units. Like for instance , why did they send me an entire motor/rim/tire assembly when they could have just sent me a few shims for the play in the motor?

Also, there were several hundred units out there when this happened, the idiots that broke them were seen using an impact gun on them and there was only one reported problem and go figure. It was by the impact driver people. As a mechanic most of my life, one of the first things you learn is not to use an impact gun on anything smaller than a 3/8 bolt. Especially not hardened axle bolts. The shock/vibration can produce hair line cracks.

[alcatraz]

There are so many bolt manufacturers in China. Sooner or later you'll come across something dodgy is my guess.

Either that or the bolts were a bit undersized. 

Some designs do raise questions, so perhaps it's more of a wheel manufacturer responsability. Then it's up to the community to find a good workaround for existing wheels if they can't be fixed under warranty.