Lie Flat to "Bai Lan" and EUC Manufacturing Quality

[0000]

I watched this video the other day and it added a new dimension of understanding to the paradigm many of us have faced, are facing, or will face in the future when shopping for a new wheel.

Considering China's economic situation compared to the west is likely a few notches higher on the pressure-cooking index, particularly for the youth, how much do you think this type of risk-reward calculation to walk away is affecting consistent manufacturing quality when it comes to things like speccing and/or sourcing components, doing an acceptable job during general assembly, and QA checks (to what extent they exist)?

Feel free to speculate. We live in interesting times...

[UtahRider]

This is one flaw of their system, unless you have ties to the govt and/or own your own business, you’re working for the state. With little to no reward for going above and beyond, this is what you get. Nothing you can do. If we must have an EUC, we have to buy Chinese made. On the other hand, some of the hardest workers I’ve worked around were Chinese/Asian. Many flaws to our system too.

[conecones]

28 minutes ago, Vanturion said:

I watched this video the other day and it added a new dimension of understanding to the paradigm many of us have faced, are facing, or will face in the future when shopping for a new wheel.

Considering China's economic situation compared to the west is likely a few notches higher on the pressure-cooking index, particularly for the youth, how much do you think this type of risk-reward calculation to walk away is affecting consistent manufacturing quality when it comes to things like speccing and/or sourcing components, doing an acceptable job during general assembly, and QA checks (to what extent they exist)?

Feel free to speculate. We live in interesting times...

The issue presented isn't something new or unique, it's just one of many negative consequences of wealth inequality combined with traditional cultural mindset of what it means to be successful. 

I don't see any relevance to QA of EUC's or any other product. These are being assembled by people with jobs, which by definition is not what this video is about..

Poor QA from some China-made products stem from the business culture of profit over everything else. "Business ethics" in China is almost an oxymoron. With such a focus on profit, the end product is going to lack in pride & passion. This is in contrast to the business culture in Japan for example, where trust, respect, ethics, pride in one's work are still very prominent. As an example, it's why only in Japan do you still see 6th generation knife makers dedicating their whole life to making one thing out of passion using mostly hand tools (instead of automated manufacturing) and only charging what's necessary to keep the business going, with no intent of expanding or finding shortcuts to make the knives quicker or for cheaper. You generally don't see this kind of mentality in China.

Edited June 16, 2022 by conecones

[0000]

Yeah maybe not a direct connection, but still I wonder about it. Can't really say for sure unless you have first or trusted second-hand knowledge of their operations and workers I suppose. More than that, I was just curious about how other riders felt about the Bai Lan sentiment today, in general.

To your point UtahRider, I agree, many of the flaws in their system are definitely increasingly mirrored or even originated here in the West as well.

Specifically with regard to the monetary system of inflationary credit that can never be repaid without ever-increasing devaluation of the unit of account, our currency. In this respect, we as a civilization are no different than China collectively running up massive financial obligations until things break, papering it over somehow, and then rinsing and repeating. Other than dollar reserve status for now I guess, for as long as people want to continue to play pretend that credit/debt = money anyway.

The way I'm currently thinking about things, it's as if earlier generations decided to completely shirk their responsibility to future generations to "leave things better than they found it" or at least leave things generally functionally intact and stable in order to consume far beyond their ability to pay for that consumption. Now that the bill is coming due in some ways in the form of very noticeable inflation, they expect you to pay for their extravagant party where they all enjoyed 7 course meals, while you maybe had a sip of sparking soda and are now being stuck with the bill.

Leaving the realm of EUC manufacturing, as I said, I'm just curious how others feel about Bai Lan as it pertains to your country and situation. I definitely feel like I've been aligning my lifestyle more to this sentiment lately as I don't want to be made the sucker.

There's a saying I've heard spoken, "the borrower is a slave to the lender" - well when every unit of account, currency, dollar, etc is a measure of debt that is "owed" to someone else, what does that say about our system? What does that say about our "freedoms" under this monetary regime? Things appear to be changing even faster lately, and who wants to be stuck with the bill, particularly when you arrived to the party at 5AM and all the hungover party-goers expect you to cleanup their mess so to speak.

"We're the last generation" - every party has a cost, and the bigger the party...

[Funky]

They are talking about me.

What's the point of life.. That's the point, that there is none.

Heck i don't even want to date, start family.. Wasting more money...

Year ago i got fired and i don't really look for new job. Because why.. You work 9-12hrs each day. Come home all tired - don't want to do anything, eat, go to sleep. "Great life"

You just work to pay bills..

But maybe that's my depression talking.. Then again i don't have any life goals, i don't socialize, hate people in general..

Sure you may call me simply "lazy" I won't deny that, because i know i am.. I have just given up. Been dead inside for long time. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Funky

[conecones]

2 hours ago, Vanturion said:

Yeah maybe not a direct connection, but still I wonder about it. Can't really say for sure unless you have first or trusted second-hand knowledge of their operations and workers I suppose. More than that, I was just curious about how other riders felt about the Bai Lan sentiment today, in general.

To your point UtahRider, I agree, many of the flaws in their system are definitely increasingly mirrored or even originated here in the West as well.

Specifically with regard to the monetary system of inflationary credit that can never be repaid without ever-increasing devaluation of the unit of account, our currency. In this respect, we as a civilization are no different than China collectively running up massive financial obligations until things break, papering it over somehow, and then rinsing and repeating. Other than dollar reserve status for now I guess, for as long as people want to continue to play pretend that credit/debt = money anyway.

The way I'm currently thinking about things, it's as if earlier generations decided to completely shirk their responsibility to future generations to "leave things better than they found it" or at least leave things generally functionally intact and stable in order to consume far beyond their ability to pay for that consumption. Now that the bill is coming due in some ways in the form of very noticeable inflation, they expect you to pay for their extravagant party where they all enjoyed 7 course meals, while you maybe had a sip of sparking soda and are now being stuck with the bill.

Leaving the realm of EUC manufacturing, as I said, I'm just curious how others feel about Bai Lan as it pertains to your country and situation. I definitely feel like I've been aligning my lifestyle more to this sentiment lately as I don't want to be made the sucker.

There's a saying I've heard spoken, "the borrower is a slave to the lender" - well when every unit of account, currency, dollar, etc is a measure of debt that is "owed" to someone else, what does that say about our system? What does that say about our "freedoms" under this monetary regime? Things appear to be changing even faster lately, and who wants to be stuck with the bill, particularly when you arrived to the party at 5AM and all the hungover party-goers expect you to cleanup their mess so to speak.

"We're the last generation" - every party has a cost, and the bigger the party...

Based on that video alone, the term "Bai Lan" does not seem to be well defined enough to use it as a specific topic of discussion. It is not a familiar term to me, nor have I heard about this from any of my friends and extended family in China (I was raised in mainland China as well). The overall concept seems to boil down to a lack of motivation and depression and this can be attributed to many factors like: consequences of single child policy, increasing wage gap, social inequality, government oppression, pressure from traditional family values, etc. We see this in the West too with various other causes.

I would be happy to discuss how any of those more commonly understood issues can attribute to a kind of lack of motivation/depression, but to call it "Bai Lan" isn't so useful in a discussion when its meaning so broad. To me it just seems like its some trendy catchphrase created online to justify a problem that in reality already has solutions but calling it something different allows people to ignore those solutions and justify its existence?

[Freeforester]

More generally, China Insights seems to delight in telling all bad news storIes from China to a Western audience. In reality, much of the experiences, inequalities and pressures of young Chinese portrayed here are little different to those of Capitalist societies, where too many graduates annually produced are often overqualified for menial tasks they eventually must settle for (in itself a huge waste of time and resources) yet because their ‘education’ has all too often been wasted made in non-subjects, when they enter the real-world marketplace they find they aren’t the ‘cat’s meow’ they reckoned themselves to be.  Then there is the matter of affording and starting a home, car, etc, and to do so perhaps with a career girl (the ones who are able to pool their resources to ‘live the dream’) who yet dare not give up her hard-won place on the ladder of ‘success’ to start a family; a recently published report here in the U.K. suggested that it cost roughly £1million for a couple to raise two kids to adulthood (the ‘dream’); with so much  pressure being put on society in general (a shrinking workforce expected to care for and underwrite the cost of an expanding yet fairly affluent elderly population (relative to their own situation) all with static or eroding wages and purchasing power, then who can truly say that one system is any better than the other? 

As ever, one’s own personal circumstances and outlook influence our point of view: we can either view the glass as being half full, or half empty; the less commonly asked question is whether our societies’ current respective trajectories are helping to replenish the half-full glass, or empty it…

Best we get out and enjoy the EUC ride whilst they are still available and affordable - the cost of electricity will be next!

[0000]

7 hours ago, Funky said:

They are talking about me.

What's the point of life.. That's the point, that there is none.

Heck i don't even want to date, start family.. Wasting more money...

...

Sure you may call me simply "lazy" I won't deny that, because i know i am.. I have just given up. Been dead inside for long time. 

Damn Funky. Well I understand the sentiment completely. Logically speaking from man's perspective, if you know you are not going to have a family, then unless your work is a passion, there really isn't any point to putting in extra effort. Society as I've come to know it certainly isn't going to appreciate or respect your efforts, that is unless you are fortunate to grow up in a strong community that has retained culture and values in the face of modernity IMO.

I had an acquaintance years ago from Latvia, very small country, limited economic opportunity doesn't necessarily help things I imagine.

You know, one thing the WEF gets right IMO is that we need better stories to deal with and process all of the changes and technology that have occurred in our lifetime. It's just that their story and plans for the us are total shit.

Well at least we have EUC now, a consolation prize no?

[0000]

6 hours ago, conecones said:

Based on that video alone, the term "Bai Lan" does not seem to be well defined enough to use it as a specific topic of discussion. It is not a familiar term to me, nor have I heard about this from any of my friends and extended family in China (I was raised in mainland China as well). 

...

To me it just seems like its some trendy catchphrase created online to justify a problem that in reality already has solutions but calling it something different allows people to ignore those solutions and justify its existence?

Interesting, so you think Bai Lan as a "thing" is more of a hyperbolic media position to drive clicks and buzz than an actual phenomenon? I took the definition of Bai Lan as the Chinese equivalent of "the juice isn't worth the squeeze" for the record, applying most appropriately to the future outlooks of a growing share of the youth.

Actually I am curious about something from your perspective. In the United States, I believe we increasingly have an environment in which people are engaging in self-censorship in order to conform to the dominating ideological bent that is increasingly aggressive toward dissident thought in order to attempt to secure a financial future.

Examples, support science (because invoking white labcoats makes you impervious to error or conflicts of interest) support Ukraine (without question of who profits and why it matters which oligarch rules the people), wear a mask (without question their effectiveness despite obvious holes literally in the cloth because the party says so), get an injection (without individual risk assessment), etc. I mean we're probably at about a 7/10 on the scale of the Emperor Has No Clothes.

On the other hand, the impression I get (online mostly) about China is that the oppression and need for self-censorship simply for survival seems to be several clicks higher toward outright tyranny and totalitarianism. Are things as bad there as pundits here make it out to be? Pundits who seem to be serving mostly to distract from the obvious tyrannical actions of our own government like jailing political dissident journalists (Julian Assange), cancelling dissident educators, numerous domestic spying programs that fundamentally compromise our right to privacy on the daily, the existence of FISA in the US (land of the free) that issues secret rulings, etc. I could go on.

Just curious, what's your anecdotal comparative assessment of the everymans' position with regard to their rights and future outlook in society relative to  existence within these 2 similar and different oppressive regimes in particular?

[0000]

6 hours ago, Freeforester said:

More generally, China Insights seems to delight in telling all bad news storIes from China to a Western audience. In reality, much of the experiences, inequalities and pressures of young Chinese portrayed here are little different to those of Capitalist societies, where too many graduates annually produced are often overqualified for menial tasks they eventually must settle for (in itself a huge waste of time and resources) yet because their ‘education’ has all too often been wasted made in non-subjects, when they enter the real-world marketplace they find they aren’t the ‘cat’s meow’ they reckoned themselves to be.  Then there is the matter of affording and starting a home, car, etc, and to do so perhaps with a career girl (the ones who are able to pool their resources to ‘live the dream’) who yet dare not give up her hard-won place on the ladder of ‘success’ to start a family; a recently published report here in the U.K. suggested that it cost roughly £1million for a couple to raise two kids to adulthood (the ‘dream’); with so much  pressure being put on society in general (a shrinking workforce expected to care for and underwrite the cost of an expanding yet fairly affluent elderly population (relative to their own situation) all with static or eroding wages and purchasing power, then who can truly say that one system is any better than the other? 

As ever, one’s own personal circumstances and outlook influence our point of view: we can either view the glass as being half full, or half empty; the less commonly asked question is whether our societies’ current respective trajectories are helping to replenish the half-full glass, or empty it…

You have a point there! You have to wonder how much of any of these types of stories are some version of "you think it's bad here? WELL LOOK AT THIS HERE." Perhaps that's mostly what's going on here. I thought it was interesting if not a potentially inaccurate explanation for why things at the EUC manufacturers don't seem to build success upon success and in general introduce new random problems later on, speaking broadly of course.

Couldn't agree with you more, education indoctrination centers seem to serve the purposes of indebting as well as delaying adulthood, IE self-sufficiency, to as many as possible for as long as possible, and to the second point, not just with regard to universities obviously. They're also serving the purposes of diminishing both the economic and reproductive viability (fertility window) of a huge amount of women, placing yet another drag on the old population growth engine. Oh look, there's not enough labor, better flood the borders and keep wages from rising... but hey, at least we pretended everyone's the same for a while though so yeah. And not to say population growth is the most desirable thing at this point, it's just the constant lying and misrepresentation of basic reality. Out of control.

As for the individual's perspective, sure it can go either way. It's the suppression that bothers me. If things are fucked, people fundamentally should have a right to express their opinions, online or otherwise, on important matters and not be micromanaged by an algorithm even if it just so happens to completely contradict the official narratives pumped and pimped by the literal Ministry of Misinformation.

6 hours ago, Freeforester said:

Best we get out and enjoy the EUC ride whilst they are still available and affordable - the cost of electricity will be next!

Hell yeah, get it while the getting's good. Anyone reading this. Ride on.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Vanturion

[conecones]

11 hours ago, Vanturion said:

Interesting, so you think Bai Lan as a "thing" is more of a hyperbolic media position to drive clicks and buzz than an actual phenomenon? I took the definition of Bai Lan as the Chinese equivalent of "the juice isn't worth the squeeze" for the record, applying most appropriately to the future outlooks of a growing share of the youth.

Actually I am curious about something from your perspective. In the United States, I believe we increasingly have an environment in which people are engaging in self-censorship in order to conform to the dominating ideological bent that is increasingly aggressive toward dissident thought in order to attempt to secure a financial future.

Examples, support science (because invoking white labcoats makes you impervious to error or conflicts of interest) support Ukraine (without question of who profits and why it matters which oligarch rules the people), wear a mask (without question their effectiveness despite obvious holes literally in the cloth because the party says so), get an injection (without individual risk assessment), etc. I mean we're probably at about a 7/10 on the scale of the Emperor Has No Clothes.

On the other hand, the impression I get (online mostly) about China is that the oppression and need for self-censorship simply for survival seems to be several clicks higher toward outright tyranny and totalitarianism. Are things as bad there as pundits here make it out to be? Pundits who seem to be serving mostly to distract from the obvious tyrannical actions of our own government like jailing political dissident journalists (Julian Assange), cancelling dissident educators, numerous domestic spying programs that fundamentally compromise our right to privacy on the daily, the existence of FISA in the US (land of the free) that issues secret rulings, etc. I could go on.

Just curious, what's your anecdotal comparative assessment of the everymans' position with regard to their rights and future outlook in society relative to  existence within these 2 similar and different oppressive regimes in particular?

I believe the ideas being associated with Bai Lan are real and problematic - I just think the term itself is fabricated as a buzz word to spread this quickly online and I don't think this is a "phenomenon" affecting a significant part of the population like the expats/western pundits might claim, and it's not going to lead the country to self destruct or anything that dramatic. My quick take on why this is becoming a "thing" based on my anecdotal data (friends/family) is that too many parents in the past generation (born in 60's 70's) have spoiled their children, because those parents grew up when the country was in relative poverty, and during the economic boom of 1990's+ a lot of lower/middle-lower class people became wealthy fairly quickly. Therefore today there are a good number of people in their 20's & 30's who are still being supported by their parents - and even worse, they feel entitled to this. The common example that I see in the west is the stereotypical rich spoiled Asian international student in most big name universities. Their tuition is fully paid, they have a $5k+ monthly allowance, drive to school in their brand new $80k BMW/Mercedes and pay tutors to do their homework. 

This is not to say that I don't believe the increasing social & economic inequality in China is causing some young people to essentially give up & "Bai Lan" because of all this pressure. But this is trending all over the world. Also, the Chinese people are not new to economic struggle. It is why the last generation of immigrants to the west are known for a very strong work ethic. This meme/saying comes to mind: "No matter how good you are at something, there's always an Asian (or Asian kid) who is better". However in mainland China as a result of the economic boom & one child policy, I think a lot of the new generation has become soft, because of being spoiled, and lost that drive/work ethic.

To your point about censorship, you might be surprised that many of the young & middle age Chinese are very aware of the wrong-doings of the government. They just aren't dumb enough to post their thoughts in heavily monitored online media, nor when speaking with strangers or people they are not familiar with. A good way to survive in this social environment is to have two faces - the one you wear in front of your mirror/trusted circle, and the one you wear for the public/country/government. Many of my relatives are still able to live a good free life doing this because the country takes on a more passive -aggressive approach to censorship. The government doesn't really force you to speak/act in any way, it's more of a "heavy suggestion" and the only ones punished are the people who stick out. So the traditional value of pushing for uniformity/conformity (instead of diversity) is still prevalent but it doesn't really affect day to day life if you are a smart citizen. From what I see, the younger population is more interested in materialism than social justice.

To bring this back to EUC-related issue, I think another term "Cha bu duo" is more relevant to the QA issues we are having. Although this is another one of those buzzwords the western pundits love to use to paint China in a specific way. Often the truth is quite boring and not as dramatic as these writers make it seem. Here is one of the more balanced takes on this issue: https://medium.com/random-acts-of-management/cha-bu-duo-is-not-what-you-think-it-means-32084cb3cde2

Edited June 17, 2022 by conecones

[0000]

12 hours ago, conecones said:

and it's not going to lead the country to self destruct or anything that dramatic

Totally agree with you there. Mechanization of industry makes for fewer and fewer laborers required to keep the gears turning so to speak, so short of war or overt actions by government (like repeated economic lockdowns and energy sanctions...), the gears of civilization will likely keep turning. As for individual self-destruction, well just look to the streets of just about any major city lately.

12 hours ago, conecones said:

However in mainland China as a result of the economic boom & one child policy, I think a lot of the new generation has become soft, because of being spoiled, and lost that drive/work ethic.

I'd say most of us are some degree of soft. I mean just being able to go to the grocery store and get food and goods from all over the world at just about any urban center is a luxury most of us take for granted having been born into these historically atypical circumstances. But yeah, interesting, not sure how you feel entitled to be taken care of by your parents indefinitely, that's very weird if widespread and different from the entitlement I see here.

Within the U.S., I believe people's sense of entitlement has developed from a very warped view of the role of government basically due to the world reserve currency status and many feel entitled to very expensive free things because the government, like some kind of mothering benevolent entity, they think can magically fix things through abstraction and redistribution. The main example being up until now the state could irresponsibly and massively deficit spend while outsourcing or delaying most of the negative repercussions in order to fund literal entitlements among other increasingly insolvent programs going into the future. I think it is this abused monetary privilege that has shaped peoples', young indoctrinated people's expectations in particular, that government is suppose to somehow swoop in and solve any and all broad social and economic crises, that were, if they bothered to put in the work to connect the dots themselves, likely the fault of government intervention in the first place. See the history of student loans as an example.

12 hours ago, conecones said:

pay tutors to do their homework. 

Ah so that's how many of those young BMW and Lambo drivers were getting by, I didn't even think about that at the time!

13 hours ago, conecones said:

To your point about censorship, you might be surprised that many of the young & middle age Chinese are very aware of the wrong-doings of the government.

Well, not so much surprised because the actions of the Chinese government are not subtle at all so I guess they'd have to be blind to not see what's going on.

It's maddening enough living here, I could not imagine putting on a face to pretend that the government has any legitimacy at all in China. Here the government can get away with spending trillions in the middle east, kill hundred of thousands of people there (many or most collateral probably), enrich numerous MIC contractors with direct monetary conflicts of interest all the way up to the then VP, all in the name of spreading "freedom" and all of this predicated on going after that lunatic Saddam's WMDs. Which was all incredible blatant lies as we found out they never existed, "freedom" was never spread, and oh yeah, then we're in Afghanistan for 20 years only to make a quick exit to leave billions in weapons so that overseas oligarchs could likely acquire and sell those assets too on the back end (probably kicking back some proceeds to some Senators and other DC filth too). All of this is common and public knowledge, but then the absolute brain-dead public totally buys into the next scam they pushed on us. And now we're in Ukraine like it's always been a member of NATO. Lmao.

It's all a joke, and I can't believe anyone out there with more than 2 neurons to rub together actually enlists today or gives anyone in Washington DC, or their media mouthpieces, even the smallest most minute amount of trust. Incredible, incredible idiocy and ignorance, it has to be said. Blows my mind everyday, it's ridiculous to even think about.

13 hours ago, conecones said:

They just aren't dumb enough to post their thoughts in heavily monitored online media, nor when speaking with strangers or people they are not familiar with. A good way to survive in this social environment is to have two faces - the one you wear in front of your mirror/trusted circle, and the one you wear for the public/country/government.

I appreciate you sharing this, but this right here, this to me is the mark of a totally failed society that has no moral legitimacy. The way things are going here, we're on the same path so I'm not claiming any superiority of the West as our government works to implement movement passports, digital slave currencies (by which your access to which can be revoked if you do not comply), and creating a literal Disinformation Governance Board (or whatever acronym they've devised for the Ministry of Truth equivalent - fucking wild btw). When everyone has to put on face and pretend evil acts committed by the state are to be tolerated because those people were stupid to share their real opinion anyway (or whatever mental justification is needed to compartmentalize), this is exactly it right here. Who will stand up against this regime when they force people at gun-point to take an injection, to rat out their bad social credit score neighbor, or to go to war? It's beyond dangerous.

A hypothetical - what happens when China finally builds up it's military, then their and our leaders get together, out of the public eye obviously, to decide on the where the war theater and "acts" will occur, and then uses both hook and crook to enlist their excess population to go fight "the enemy" that they've spent the last 5-10 years propagandizing the population to signal and brainwash through repetition who are the "real problem" and reason they aren't getting what they're due in life. I mean, if no one is allowed to speak out and generally call BS when appropriate, then what's to stop something like this from playing out when our respective "leaders" (who have way more in common with each other than the average citizen of their own respective countries) decide to cull the population in the next war? Just thinking out loud here.

13 hours ago, conecones said:

From what I see, the younger population is more interested in materialism than social justice.

Sounds like they've adapted to modern incentives in our top-down hierarchy without having access to the wisdom of previous generations as those "nails" who would publicly advise against the evil of centralized authority, already got hammered. Is it smart to adapt or to bring kids into a culture that has to lie to each other in order to secure their financial future and get ahead? I'm not so sure, I see the West increasingly going in the same direction. Bai Lan appeals, and slavery does not.

That medium article describes the part of Chinese culture we found so frustrating here perfectly I think, thanks.