V12 death wobble finally got me and threw me off.

[Smoop]

So, unless my feet are in exact alignment slowing down quickly from decent speed produces insane death wobbles which I have learned to live with riding my stock V12, I am hoping some pads will prevent this which I purchased this morning but today finally I got a death wobble I just could not reign in and was thrown off at about 40km/h onto cement on my ass which then turned into grass. Sore coccyx, compressed lower spine and swollen elbow from hyperextending my arm.

Any other V12 riders know how to prevent death wobbles ? I usually prevent them by doing a bunch of slower speed runs and braking while adjusting my feet until I am completely balanced which sometimes can take a few minutes. I am hoping pads will sort this out as I am over fighting the wheel when I am going decent speeds.

Any help would be appreciated.

Below is a picture of my pants for you guys to chuckle at  

https://imgur.com/a/0jhaKyE

Edited March 17, 2022 by Smoop

[techyiam]

I have been playing with the death wobble on hard braking a bit on a stock V12. That means the tire is still stock. Since I don't trust the V12, I only brake hard at 50 kph or higher in a controlled environment. The wobble is so violent that crashing is likely if I didn't let up immediately. Since I am in a controlled environment, there are no consequences for me to quit braking hard. Otherwise, I would have crashed.

I found that if the pedals are set to the lowest height, death wobbles are almost guaranteed for any trace of hard braking at speeds higher than 45 kph or so.

In the same exact scenario but with the pedals set to the highest position, there could be still some wobbles, but they would not be so violent, nor the onset so immediate.

Other than that, the rider plays a very important part. You will have to experiment. 

I played with tire pressure too, but I didn't find anything conclusive. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by techyiam

[RoboFixIt]

How come some wheels wobble more then others? Not enough testing done in the development stages? Something off balance? A friend of mine hurt himself pretty badly on the V!2 because of the dreaded death wobble. He almost quit riding indefinitely...

I purposely test and push my wheels to wobble at various speeds and PSI settings to make sure I can feel how to correct it in advance.

[techyiam]

Some say the EXN also wobbles under hard braking. When Chooch first got on the Abrams in Jimmy Chang's video, he got a death wobble too, and he is a skilled and experienced rider. In the video, Chooch explained afterwards that riders have to learn to adapt to each wheel. Basically, it is up to the rider to figure out how to get around, or suppress the wobbles. I too am curious as how widespread is the death wobble for euc's in general, and to what degree for each wheel that does have this flaw. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by techyiam

[supercurio]

Braking wobbles are all about tuning your technique and muscle memory to the specific wheel ridden in various scenarios.

In that sense, @techyiam is wise practicing to train that in a controlled environment, since it's the most effective method to avoid it happening.
Even when fully trained/tuned however we need to accept that it will still happen on unexpected, true emergency braking since we'll be more tense and have less time to prepare than desired.

Things that help besides training (in random order)

• tire/tire pressure providing good steering stability (V12 stock tire is so-so on that)
• legs/calves naturally hugging the wheel; it depends on how wide is the wheel, how big are the calves and how bow legged is the natural stance. (V12 is a thin wheel, which will amplify wobble for people with smaller calves or bow legged stance)
• brake pads: I prefer brake pads which are at least 40mm (45mm sweet spot) in width. They should be enough at the front to be accessible anytime. Otherwise the rider will have to keep its legs straight to reach them while braking.
  brake pads will allow to apply more leverage without fear of falling backwards
• brake technique: the lower the center of gravity, the least wobble: the easier way to get there is to lower your body while hugging the wheel with your legs. You'll observe that you can brake with very good control and intensity while barely even trying.

 

[techyiam]

38 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Braking wobbles are all about tuning your technique and muscle memory to the specific wheel ridden in various scenarios.

In that sense, @techyiam is wise practicing to train that in a controlled environment, since it's the most effective method to avoid it happening.
Even when fully trained/tuned however we need to accept that it will still happen on unexpected, true emergency braking since we'll be more tense and have less time to prepare than desired.

Things that help besides training (in random order)

• tire/tire pressure providing good steering stability (V12 stock tire is so-so on that)
• legs/calves naturally hugging the wheel; it depends on how wide is the wheel, how big are the calves and how bow legged is the natural stance. (V12 is a thin wheel, which will amplify wobble for people with smaller calves or bow legged stance)
• brake pads: I prefer brake pads which are at least 40mm (45mm sweet spot) in width. They should be enough at the front to be accessible anytime. Otherwise the rider will have to keep its legs straight to reach them while braking.
  brake pads will allow to apply more leverage without fear of falling backwards
• brake technique: the lower the center of gravity, the least wobble: the easier way to get there is to lower your body while hugging the wheel with your legs. You'll observe that you can brake with very good control and intensity while barely even trying.

 

My bet is that you haven't tried braking hard on a stock V12 going higher than 50 kph with the pedals set at the lowest position. 

I have no wobbles braking hard on my V12 going at or above 50 kph with the pedals set at the highest position. I wanted to try riding at the lowest pedal position. Even though I can brake hard without wobbles on a stock V12 at high speeds with the pedals set at the highest position, l still don't ride the V12 at those speeds because I don't trust it, unless I am in an environment where I can mitigate the risks. Once I have put in the newly redesigned driver board, that can change.

My finding is that the stock V12 is very unstable during hard braking at higher speeds with the pedals set at the lowest position.

Edited March 17, 2022 by techyiam

[supercurio]

Indeed as you know @techyiam I have not ridden the V12 so far - since none is safe.

I rode most the the existing wheels released tho, some in various configurations as we often try out each other wheels in our local Stockholm rider group.
It's a great exercise to learn to adjust as a rider to different parameters and get to the essence of riding a wheel: what differ between them, how the riding experience is affected by one physical parameter or another, with or without pads, tire pressure, all riding modes etc.

What I've learned iso far s that all EUCs obey the same rules, although there are many of them.

That's why I can predict that what would increase wobble for a V12 compared to other wheels is:

• body shape on the narrow side, narrower at the top (more difficult to hug depending on morphology)
• pointy stock tire profile with a flat strip in the middle (will tend to oscillate around this center strip)
• fast wheel (wobble energy increases with speed)

Regarding the pedal height, you'll see some rider find that lower pedals decrease wobble, and your experience is reversed. We can guess from that it's influenced by rider leg length, rider height, rider weight and braking technique (how low they'll bring their center of gravity mostly).

It's always interesting to see that on some parameters, one rider will have the exact opposite conclusion than another! But since it's a matter of tuning/suppressing an oscillation, that makes sense.
In all cases, great you found what works for you!

[techyiam]

55 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Indeed as you know @techyiam I have not ridden the V12 so far - since none is safe.

That is your prerogative, and I don't blame you. However, on the latter, I know it is subtle, but I view it differently. I believe that there can be more than one V12 out in the wild that is safe, but no owner would know for certain that his or hers is safe.

 

55 minutes ago, supercurio said:

II rode most the the existing wheels released tho, some in various configurations as we often try out each other wheels in our local Stockholm rider group.
It's a great exercise to learn to adjust as a rider to different parameters and get to the essence of riding a wheel: what differ between them, how the riding experience is affected by one physical parameter or another, with or without pads, tire pressure, all riding modes etc.

What I've learned iso far s that all EUCs obey the same rules, although there are many of them.

That's why I can predict that what would increase wobble for a V12 compared to other wheels is:

• body shape on the narrow side, narrower at the top (more difficult to hug depending on morphology)
• pointy stock tire profile with a flat strip in the middle (will tend to oscillate around this center strip)
• fast wheel (wobble energy increases with speed)

Thanks for sharing. However, not that all riders will agree with each others experiences and findings, but the fact that they are out there, riders can pick and choose. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Edited March 17, 2022 by techyiam

[jimjam.nyc]

surprised nobody mentioned softening up the braking in split ride modes. I was able to relieve some unwanted braking wobbles by softening up the braking with the split ride modes.. 

Obviously also by learning the wheel a little better as many have stated in this thread, but i found the split ride modes to be pretty helpful as well to help dial back some of the wobbles. 

 

 

 

[Smoop]

Thanks for the input guys, very interesting reading. A little more about me as people are assuming I dont have experience. I have over 10,000kms riding experience and 3000 of those are on my V12. I ride pretty hard and very rarely do I fall.

I get death wobbles every ride which I usually mitigate by easing up on my braking and allowing the wheel to right itself, I can squeeze the wheel with my legs and most of the time stop the wobbles, other times I make micro adjustments with my feet until they are in the exact correct alignment which completely gets rid of the death wobble at any speed but finding that exact position can and has taken me up to 30 minutes and once in that position the V12 is an absolute JOY to ride.

I hope the pads I have purchased help with the wobble or I will be selling the V12 for a more stable wheel.

[supercurio]

20 minutes ago, Smoop said:

Thanks for the input guys, very interesting reading. A little more about me as people are assuming I dont have experience. I have over 10,000kms riding experience and 3000 of those are on my V12. I ride pretty hard and very rarely do I fall.

I get death wobbles every ride which I usually mitigate by easing up on my braking and allowing the wheel to right itself, I can squeeze the wheel with my legs and most of the time stop the wobbles, other times I make micro adjustments with my feet until they are in the exact correct alignment which completely gets rid of the death wobble at any speed but finding that exact position can and has taken me up to 30 minutes and once in that position the V12 is an absolute JOY to ride.

I hope the pads I have purchased help with the wobble or I will be selling the V12 for a more stable wheel.

Ah yes it helps understanding!

Understandably if it's that frequent you definitely need some change to do something about it.

If pads are not enough, another tire should make the most difference (H666 can be sourced alright for 12" rims).
Placement of pads will have a dramatic influence as well - a bunch of trial and error there. I like a good lock-in and it appears to limit wobbles to some extent - but it's not to everyone's taste.
Pads might help you lower your gravity more as well, which should eliminate the wobble in almost all scenarios - especially if you can now get your center of gravity really low without fear of falling off the rear.

[redsnapper]

38 minutes ago, Smoop said:

I get death wobbles every ride

Very interesting Herr Smoop! Very interesting. Make yourzelf comfortable on ze couch & relax... Now tell Dr. Freud about ze earliest memories from your kinderhood? 

[Panny]

A few interesting Quirks on the V12...I have experienced the Death wobble at 55 but fortunately was able to stay aboard....SPLIT Settings SEttings Speed at 90% - BRAKING at 30%.PEDAL RESPONSE at 10 %....I tried them all...UP AND DOWN....All get the same results.....I read that people say it is worse at low pedal level so I raised the pedals to the top...Can not say it was any better or worse.....HOWEVER, I did notice while braking family hard,   if I maintained a straight back while I was leaning back, instead of the usual sitting position there seemed to be quite an improvement. I thought I would mention that to see if other people experience the same thing. Also I am experiencing a very noticeable pedals tip forward as i make a 180 turn after a long straight-a-way, I tried recalibrating the V12 wich eliminated about half forward tip, but it is still there, and is very annoying especially on tight turns......Is anyone else experiencing the same?