Ek. Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 (edited) https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?sh=e3e58a6d2870 Someone was talking about these new kinds of batteries at the pub last week, so I googled it. I know there are some super-smart people around here who no doubt have some knowledge and/or opinion about this and I'm interested to know more! Edited May 28, 2021 by Ek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 (edited) 160Wh/kg is inferior to the current state of the art li-ions (approx. 240Wh/kg). So any wheel based on this chemistry would need to be heavier. Charging times aren't much of a problem even now (for example charging KS18XL takes like 2h with a 9A charger). Edited May 28, 2021 by atdlzpae 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 Semi-related: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/eternally-five-years-away-no-batteries-are-improving-under-your-nose/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLeg Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) On 5/28/2021 at 4:32 PM, atdlzpae said: 160Wh/kg is inferior to the current state of the art li-ions (approx. 240Wh/kg). So any wheel based on this chemistry would need to be heavier. Charging times aren't much of a problem even now (for example charging KS18XL takes like 2h with a 9A charger). These new batteries, where you want to minimize the time the unicycle is spent charging eg, you are courrier and need to keep unicycle on the go.... I think for the mayority of people they can offer safety and cycles, but not range... what does everyone suffer from ? - "range anxiety". These new batteries you would be able to charge fast and frequently, but I don't think that would be an acceptable trade off for us riders.... Edited May 31, 2021 by OneLeg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 The EUC brands will take what is cheap & mainstream. When you see the few fire issues EUC gets, I'm not sure they even understand current li-ion ones (or they scandalously save couple of buck on bms/fuse). So we don't have to worry, if new battery tech emerge, you'll see them in ebike and power-tool long before EUC get them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, OneLeg said: These new batteries, where you want to minimize the time the unicycle is spent charging eg, you are courrier and need to keep unicycle on the go.... I think for the mayority of people they can offer safety and cycles, but not range... These new batteries you would be able to charge fast and frequently, but I don't think that would be an acceptable trade off for us riders.... We already have a widespread chemistry that offers "safety and cycles, but not range" - LiFePo4. It can support up to 10* more cycles, while having 60% of Wh/kg and costing 2 times more. You could in theory do 500,000 km on a 1600Wh LiFePo4 battery. Wikipedia has an article about Al-ion batteries and it paints a way more positive picture - theoretical capacity of 1060Wh/kg instead of 406Wh/kg for Li-ion. Is it the chemistry of the future? Who knows. If it is, don't count on it earlier than *20 years, it's way harder to manufacture an Al-ion battery than a Li-ion. * I mean, 20 years for mainstream use. It's very possible it will be available for horrendous prices in 10 years. Edited May 31, 2021 by atdlzpae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 10 minutes ago, atdlzpae said: LiFePo4. It can support up to 10* more cycles, while having 60% of Wh/kg and costing 2 times more. LiFePo4 is the cheapest chemistry, isn't it ?! With latest improvement on Wh/kg-Wh/L side, it start to be offered in (entry level) EV car - See basic Chinese Tesla 3. In fact China have made drastic rules against EV fire risk, that's why we'll more & more LiFePo4 EVs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLeg Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 12 minutes ago, atdlzpae said: We already have a widespread chemistry that offers "safety and cycles, but not range" - LiFePo4. It can support up to 10* more cycles, while having 60% of Wh/kg and costing 2 times more. You could in theory do 500,000 km on a 1600Wh LiFePo4 battery. Wikipedia has an article about Al-ion batteries and it paints a way more positive picture - theoretical capacity of 1060Wh/kg instead of 406Wh/kg for Li-ion. Is it the chemistry of the future? Who knows. If it is, don't count on it faster than 20 years, it's way harder to manufacture an Al-ion battery than a Li-ion. LiFePo4 - seems tesla3 will have those, but they have less Whr/Kg, and even less W/Kg... so they are not going to charge fast and are not good a massive discharge rates.... which we need espcially on those 40 cell packs... Plus their full voltage is 3.6V... Actually we yet don't know the voltage of these these new Al-Ion batteries... they maybe totally useless for us. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Camenbert said: LiFePo4 is the cheapest chemistry, isn't it ?! I searched for the cheapest li-ion lifepo4 cells from reputable sellers on aliexpress.com and here's what I found: Li-ion - 4.67Wh/$ LiFePo4 - 4.025Wh/$ When you're buying new batteries, the prices are very close. I stand corrected, you're right!!! The prices per Wh are nearly the same for new cells. LiFePo4 is the future for lots of use cases. Edited May 31, 2021 by atdlzpae 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 LiFePo4 (or lithium iron phosphate - LFP) is cheaper because it's cobalt free. I've got: NCM/NCMA: 90 euros per kWh LNMO: 80 euros per kWh LFP: 70 euros per kWh Aliexpress, a reliable source of information ? Try https://pushevs.com instead.. All of this to say future is not always about new tech, old one can have their comeback too. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Camenbert said: Aliexpress, a reliable source of information ? Not reliable, but convenient. I tried amazon.com and ebay.com, but they were even worse. The person who designed amazon.com's search should die in pain. Quote LFP: 70 euros per kWh Which one exactly is it? I'm unable to find such a cheap LiFePo4 on pushevs.com (blslifepo4battery.com), not even close... In fact, they all seem to be > $300 per kWh. Edited May 31, 2021 by atdlzpae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 These are the B2B prices, what a car manufacturer pay to CATL for example. For sure EUC manufacturer pay much more ($150 to $250 per kWh, just the cell), they don't buy on aliexpress, amazon or ebay ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLeg Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 We pay a big premium, also the manufacturers don't want their products going up in smoke and damaging the brand, so they clearly need to buy the best... I only saw IPS using some non Japanese Korean cells in one of their models. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 (edited) What's interesting is that those B2B prices are cheaper even than the used 18650's taken from laptop batteries. Yep, we pay a big premium. Edited June 1, 2021 by atdlzpae 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 It look cheap, but at 80 euros per kWh (LNMO) x 150 kWh = that's $15.000 or 1/3 of latest FORD F150 Lightning long range price ! It's indeed suspected to have such large battery... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLeg Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 13 hours ago, atdlzpae said: What's interesting is that those B2B prices are cheaper even than the used 18650's taken from laptop batteries. Yep, we pay a big premium. Well if you look on Taobao and Aliexpress you can find oodles of fake VTC6 HG2's GA's at silly prices like even US$1... I think the unicycle battery manufacturers learned fast that going for rated Mha, capacities servered of little, when the unicycle won't do the distance or simply caught fire is stressed... It really doesn't make any sense to skimp. It is not like an eScooter, that you can litterally put crap into as long as you have a decent BMS, and if cuts out, it doesn't matter, you grind to a halt. If a rider gets a cut out and is later identified that fake cell died, I think the community would be sharpening their pitch forks.... just not worth considering for the manufacturers. Also on unicycles the remaining life on battery after they are not good sturdy enough to ride, is high... 50-60% capacity is left. Our batteries can be use I see unicycles being at the top of the food chain terms the demmand Whr/Kg and quality cells in the future either. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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