tire and wheel size confusion

[RhoadsNRoses82]

Veteran patton is listed as an 18" wheel in the spec sheet but everyone calls it a 16" EUC. As far as i understand the rim on it is 12", and the motorcycle tire standard notation for the tire it uses would be 3 - 12, meaning 3" width and 12" rim. Is leaperkim just referring to the overall diameter of the entire wheel being 18"? My v11 has an 18x3 tire, but the overall diameter of the wheel measures 18" not 20", so how could the patton with a 16" tire have an overall wheel diameter of 18"?

[meepmeepmayer]

Historically, "16 inch" meant 12 inch rim (like the Patton). The first wheels with a 12 inch rim had 2.125'' wide tires (or even just 1.9'' wide), so the "16 inch" moniker might have been somewhat correct for the true diameter of the tire back then. That's where that comes from. With a 3'' wide tire, the true diameter is something like 17.5'' (depends on the tire). 

Anything from "18 inch" to "20 inch" historically meant a 14 inch rim, where "18 inch" was used for 2.5'' wide tires and "19/20 inch" was advertised when the now-all-popular 3'' wide tires (possibly knobby for a bit extra diameter) came around. The actual tire diameter for a 3'' wide tire on a 14'' rim is more like 21.5'' (or something like that). I'm not sure what true diameter your V11 tire has, but I suspect it's notably over 18 inches.

The confusion stems from the fact that the manufacturers have recently started stating numbers closer to the actual tire diameters (with the ubiquitously used 3'' wide tires) because bigger number = better and the old naming made little sense with the 3'' wide tires being standard now (before, there were "16 inchers" like the Patton and "16 inchers" like the V8, with quite different true tire diameters and thus riding behavior).

The Patton is a "16 inch" wheel with a 12 inch rim and an actual tire diameter that can be generously rounded up to be 18 inches. One of the recent Begode wheels (I think the T4) has the same tire size and was advertised as "17 inch", which is somewhat exact.

In doubt, check the rim sizes - 12 vs. 14 inches.

Edited September 11, 2023 by meepmeepmayer

[RhoadsNRoses82]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Historically, "16 inch" meant 12 inch rim (like the Patton). The first wheels with a 12 inch rim had 2.125'' wide tires (or even just 1.9'' wide), so the "16 inch" moniker might have been somewhat correct for the true diameter of the tire back then. That's where that comes from. With a 3'' wide tire, the true diameter is something like 17.5'' (depends on the tire). 

Anything from "18 inch" to "20 inch" historically meant a 14 inch rim, where "18 inch" was used for 2.5'' wide tires and "19/20 inch" was advertised when the now-all-popular 3'' wide tires (possibly knobby for a bit extra diameter) came around. The actual tire diameter for a 3'' wide tire on a 14'' rim is more like 21.5'' (or something like that). I'm not sure what true diameter your V11 tire has, but I suspect it's notably over 18 inches.

The confusion stems from the fact that the manufacturers have recently started stating numbers closer to the actual tire diameters (with the ubiquitously used 3'' wide tires) because bigger number = better and the old naming made little sense with the 3'' wide tires being standard now (before, there were "16 inchers" like the Patton and "16 inchers" like the V8, with quite different true tire diameters and thus riding behavior).

The Patton is a "16 inch" wheel with a 12 inch rim and an actual tire diameter that can be generously rounded up to be 18 inches. One of the recent Begode wheels (I think the T4) has the same tire size and was advertised as "17 inch", which is somewhat exact.

In doubt, check the rim sizes - 12 vs. 14 inches.

very thorough and makes sense thanks! based on what you're saying it sounds like the patton will be more comparable in wheel size to something like a v12 rather than my v11 then? (i think v12 uses 3" tires not sure tho). I'm ordering a patton and i just hope it won't feel too much less stable than my v11 that's why i'm thinking through all this

[techyiam]

31 minutes ago, EF95 said:

... i just hope it won't feel too much less stable than my v11 that's why i'm thinking through all this

I have never ridden a Patton over 50 km/h. But at any speed below that, the Patton feels way less skittish and more steady than the V12. The V12 rides fine, and my V12 is stable. I have no issues going 70 km/h.  But it can move around more. One gets used to it, though. 

Note that the 16" V12 is a lot less skittish than the 16" Begode T3.

Edited September 11, 2023 by techyiam

[meepmeepmayer]

6 hours ago, EF95 said:

based on what you're saying it sounds like the patton will be more comparable in wheel size to something like a v12 rather than my v11 then?

Yes, exactly. It's technically the same size as the V12 (you could exchange tires) - 3 inch wide tire on a 12 inch rim.

Now how a wheel actually rides depends on things like the specific tire used (obviously), weight distribution, ergonomics/pedal location, firmware, etc. But the big differentiator is always 12 inch rim ("16 inchers", in quotation marks for a reason) vs. 14 inch rim ("20 inchers"). Naturally, the smaller diameter tire wheels will feel more zippy and direct.

I would not make too many conclusions about stability (at speed?) from that, though. A "small" wheel can be very stable with a good weight distribution. I believe the Patton is quite good in that regard.

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

Note that the 16" V12 is a lot less skittish than the 16" Begode T3.

@EF95This is a great example of two "16 inchers" with quite different tire diameters. 3 inch wide vs. 2.125 makes a huge difference.

I'm glad that manufacturers are switching to "real" numbers from this kind of thing. If only they would do it consistently But from the rim size and tire width (3 inch nowadays for pretty much all new wheels) you can figure out what kind of wheel it is.

[RhoadsNRoses82]

On 9/11/2023 at 12:13 AM, techyiam said:

I have never ridden a Patton over 50 km/h. But at any speed below that, the Patton feels way less skittish and more steady than the V12. The V12 rides fine, and my V12 is stable. I have no issues going 70 km/h.  But it can move around more. One gets used to it, though. 

Note that the 16" V12 is a lot less skittish than the 16" Begode T3.

any particular reason why you don't take your patton above 50km/h? most of the reason i am switching from v11 to patton is because after about a year of riding the v11 i am definitely always feeling like i need more speed. v11 at 53-55 kmh makes me concerned that i am in cutout territory. I really like that the patton has so much headroom so i can stop worrying about cutouts. granted i do also wanna try some trail riding at some point and it seems like the patton is going to be A+ for that whenever i decide to go there

[Forwardnbak]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:54 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

Historically, "16 inch" meant 12 inch rim (like the Patton). The first wheels with a 12 inch rim had 2.125'' wide tires (or even just 1.9'' wide), so the "16 inch" moniker might have been somewhat correct for the true diameter of the tire back then. That's where that comes from. With a 3'' wide tire, the true diameter is something like 17.5'' (depends on the tire). 

Anything from "18 inch" to "20 inch" historically meant a 14 inch rim, where "18 inch" was used for 2.5'' wide tires and "19/20 inch" was advertised when the now-all-popular 3'' wide tires (possibly knobby for a bit extra diameter) came around. The actual tire diameter for a 3'' wide tire on a 14'' rim is more like 21.5'' (or something like that). I'm not sure what true diameter your V11 tire has, but I suspect it's notably over 18 inches.

The confusion stems from the fact that the manufacturers have recently started stating numbers closer to the actual tire diameters (with the ubiquitously used 3'' wide tires) because bigger number = better and the old naming made little sense with the 3'' wide tires being standard now (before, there were "16 inchers" like the Patton and "16 inchers" like the V8, with quite different true tire diameters and thus riding behavior).

The Patton is a "16 inch" wheel with a 12 inch rim and an actual tire diameter that can be generously rounded up to be 18 inches. One of the recent Begode wheels (I think the T4) has the same tire size and was advertised as "17 inch", which is somewhat exact.

In doubt, check the rim sizes - 12 vs. 14 inches.

Meep, thanks so much for a great comment.

I hope you don't mind I copied this into an answer in the comments on my latest youtube video. I gave you credit and linked the group. 

It really was a great explanation and helped me understand.

 

Cheers mate.