Have you ever been pulled over and ticketed by police while riding on the road? (Seattle, WA specific)

[xthinhmanx]

I'm a new to the EUC world. I just bought a Begode Nikola+.

After a bit of investigation, EUCs are classified as EPAMDs and can only be ridden on the roads if no sidewalk is present in Washington unless otherwise specific in local laws.

It seems like most EUC riders prefer to be on the road.

Do any Seattle riders have experience riding on the roads?

Do the police care if they see you riding on the road?

Have you ever been ticketed for riding on the road?

Any tips regarding an interaction with police while riding on an EUC would be appreciated.

I plan to be a pretty conservative rider, but I would like to be on the road and prepared if I am pulled over.

 

EUC classification as an EPAMD:

https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.04.1695

Municipal code for EPAMDs:

https://library.municode.com/wa/seattle/codes/municipal_code/304661?nodeId=TIT11VETR_SUBTITLE_ITRCO_PT4PEHIBIEPMOFOSCRU

[VikB]

"a self-balancing device with one wheel designed to transport only one person by an electric propulsion system with an average power of two thousand watts (two and two-thirds horsepower) having a maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a propulsion system, of less than twenty miles per hour."

 

Most EUCs fail the bolded part of the regulation for EPAMDs. So they are not legal on roads. Being close to a EPAMD doesn't get you anywhere legally speaking.

The reality is cops are not looking for EUCs and don't care about them [in general]. Your best bet is to ride at slow to moderate speeds and be considerate. The more you act like legal traffic the less attention you'll get. That said if you run into the wrong cop on the wrong day you can end up in trouble. That's life riding an illegal motorized vehicle.

FWIW - I have not had any issues with cops in my corner of Canada. I ride my EUC pretty similarly to my pedal bike. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by VikB

[Zalagator]

*I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.*

I have been riding for about a year and a half in the Puget Sound area and have been stopped once by Law Enforcement. The officer said I was operating a "scooter type device" and that I could not operate in the roadway. I was cordial, explained that I was following the law for EPAMDs, and that I was in fact allowed to operate in the roadway. He didn't even attempt to ID me, which makes me think this was more of a curiosity stop rather than something he could articulate issuing a citation for.

That said, the rules for EPAMDs in WA state are pretty clear. The key here however is that most higher end EUC's do not fit this description due to the fact that their speed exceeds the definition of "a maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a propulsion system, of less than 20 miles per hour". If I did receive a citation I would personally argue this in court, because the law that I would be cited under would likely not pertain to my device.

My personal take is that if you are in the street behave like a vehicle/bicycle and obey the traffic laws that pertain to vehicles. If you are on a sidewalk, follow pedestrian rules (mostly limit your speed), and you will likely not encounter any issues. The WA State legislature clearly intended to legislate EUC's, but they were too specific in their wording/they did not anticipate developing technologies, and I suspect that as EUC popularity grows the definition will be updated to be more inclusive. They did however provide an "out" to local municipalities by allowing them to impose their own restrictions as Seattle has done.

For anyone seeking more clarity, you can look at your local municipality code to see if additional restrictions have been codified. From the research I have done however, very few cities/counties have language in their code about EUC's/EPAMDs, and the ones that do simply mirror the RCW. That said, there are several sections of the RCW that I would argue pertain to EUC's. I previously compiled them for my own benefit, and have posted them below for anyone interested:

 

RCW 46.04.1695 – (2) “Electric personal assistive mobility device" (EPAMD) means a self-balancing device with one wheel designed to transport only one person by an electric propulsion system with an average power of two thousand watts (two and two-thirds horsepower) having a maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a propulsion system, of less than twenty miles per hour.
RCW 46.20.500 - (4) No driver's license is required to operate an EPAMD.
RCW 46.04.320 (3)(a) & WAC 516-12-400 (22) - "Motor vehicle" excludes EPAMD’s.
RCW 46.04.670 – EPAMD’s are not vehicles.
RCW 47.36.025 – (1)(f)(ii) EPAMD’s are not motorcycles.
RCW 46.16A.030 – (1) EPAMD’s are not licensable/registrable.
RCW 35.75.020 - EPAMD’s can be operated on bike paths.
RCW 46.61.710 - (3) EPAMD’s can be operated on roadways other than fully controlled limited access highways (freeways).
(11) Persons operating an EPAMD have all the rights and duties of a pedestrian in addition to EPAMD rights.
(12)(a) EPAMD’s can be operated on public highways unless prohibited by local ordinances.
(12)(b) Municipalities shall not restrict the speed or operation of an EPAMD in the entire community or in areas in which there is infrequent pedestrian traffic.

[Zalagator]

5 minutes ago, VikB said:

Most EUCs fail the bolded part of the regulation for EPAMDs. So they are not legal on roads. Being close to a EPAMD doesn't get you anywhere legally speaking.

*again not legal advice, but...*

The fact that a device is not regulated or codified does not mean that it is illegal to operate on a roadway, quite the opposite, which is why laws are often passed after a new mode of transportation is invented in order to regulate it. There is not a catchall law which states that everything not listed herein is illegal to operate on a roadway.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Zalagator
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[Tawpie]

As to history, @Ginger On Wheels was cited on (IIRC) Mercer Island for doing something wrong in a crosswalk and another local was pulled over in Kirkland. I've been cruising around the sound almost daily without any issues whatsoever—I ride geared and conservatively. And unlike my spandex warrior companions, I ALWAYS announce my intention to pass. SPD doesn't seem to care quite honestly, I smile and wave to them when I see them. Maybe avoid Kirkland and Mercer Island (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA15o2YL8e0 and yes, that is Bill Nye before he became the Science Guy)

While it's irritating as all get out, and while you might be able to get the ticket thrown out (because you're actually not an EPAMD due to your speed capability and thus aren't subject to regulation), the going advice is to quietly pay the ticket and try to keep us under the radar.

[Zalagator]

I feel like I should clarify that while the laws specific to EUC's are murky, there are a whole host of laws that DO apply to your behavior (while on an EUC or not) on sidewalks, bike paths, crosswalks, and streets, and those are what should fall under the common sense category. If you are riding recklessly, have excessive speed near pedestrians, cutting off cars, ignoring traffic signals, or causing damage/injuries, you can indeed be cited under various current laws, and they will apply to you. My posts were more focused on someone claiming that you cannot be safely operating an EUC on a roadway, sidewalk, or bike path, because you can.

The basic advice that most of us ride by is to follow traffic laws, ride courteously of other drivers, bicyclists, and pedestrians, and don't give EUC's a bad image.

[VikB]

1 hour ago, Zalagator said:

*again not legal advice, but...*

The fact that a device is not regulated or codified does not mean that it is illegal to operate on a roadway, quite the opposite, which is why laws are often passed after a new mode of transportation is invented in order to regulate it. There is not a catchall law which states that everything not listed herein is illegal to operate on a roadway.

The cops will give you a ticket for doing something illegal and then you can hire a lawyer and try and fight that in court if you want. I don't think your chances are good if it gets that far, but it's your right. Of course once you take into account the time and costs involved it may not be worth it.

Under the law an EUC is a "motorized vehicle" unless you can find an exclusion for it like EPAMDs, which we've ruled out. Motorized vehicles require liability insurance in WA state. So that's one angle you can get cited for. I am sure there are a bunch of other ones as well. Personally I don't see the point in trying to fight the Gov't on this in the courts, but it's your right.

[Zalagator]

9 minutes ago, VikB said:

Under the law an EUC is a "motorized vehicle" unless you can find an exclusion for it like EPAMDs, which we've ruled out. Motorized vehicles require liability insurance in WA state. So that's one angle you can get cited for. I am sure there are a bunch of other ones as well. Personally I don't see the point in trying to fight the Gov't on this in the courts, but it's your right.

That would depend entirely upon where you are riding, which is why I suggest looking at your local ordinances, laws, and regulations if you are concerned about being stopped, and making your own analysis of those laws. Some people are operating EUC's that do in fact meet the definition of an EPAMD in WA State (I have EUC's that do and others that do not), and if you do meet that definition you are certainly NOT operating a "motorized vehicle" this topic is nuanced as I've hopefully conveyed in my above posts.

[VikB]

3 minutes ago, Zalagator said:

That would depend entirely upon where you are riding, which is why I suggest looking at your local ordinances, laws, and regulations if you are concerned about being stopped, and making your own analysis of those laws. Some people are operating EUC's that do in fact meet the definition of an EPAMD in WA State (I have EUC's that do and others that do not), and if you do meet that definition you are certainly NOT operating a "motorized vehicle" this topic is nuanced as I've hopefully conveyed in my above posts.

What EUC do you have that won't do 20mph on level ground?

[Zalagator]

I have two, an Inmotion V8 and a Gotway MTen3.

[VikB]

1 minute ago, Zalagator said:

I have two, an Inmotion V8 and a Gotway MTen3.

V8 or V8F? MTen3 84V?

[Tawpie]

2 minutes ago, Zalagator said:

I have two, an Inmotion V8 and a Gotway MTen3.

My 67V MTen will go over 20. Not with me on it, but its marketing glossies claim it will!

[Zalagator]

I would posit that the RCW refers to you the rider taking the device above the speed of 20 MPH, because nearly any EUC will go over 20 MPH with a 50 pound rider, and the law is clearly focused on a specific person (you) riding a device. At 250 pounds neither of those devices will take me above 20 MPH, and the marking materials (which I have) for these devices also list their top speed as below 20 MPH. This is sort of a silly path to tread though, my above advice stands. YMMV.

[chanman]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:00 AM, Zalagator said:

The fact that a device is not regulated or codified does not mean that it is illegal to operate on a roadway, quite the opposite,

While your advice in this thread has been good, I do think you're wrong on this point. Unless you fit into a set of things allowed on public roads you're by default not allowed on public roads.

Edited July 27, 2022 by chanman

[Tawpie]

It's a bit silly for a bunch of wheel jockeys to argue the fine points of very gray legislation, but the WA State Legislature did revise the law in 2015 to specifically include 1 wheeled vehicles because 

Finding—2015 c 145: "The legislature finds that at least two companies in Washington have developed a one-wheeled device for people to use to travel from place to place. These devices are unregulated and can travel wherever and however they like. By adding these devices to the definition of an electric personal assistive mobility device, they become regulated and local communities can determine locations that are appropriate for their use." [ 2015 c 145 § 1.]

 

Source: https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.04.1695

Fun thing is that the law caps the EPAMD definition at 2 kW motors and 20 mph, so over that and we're back into unregulated and can travel wherever and however they like territory. SHHHHHHHH.

NOTE: if a law officer wants to cite you, they'll find something because there seems to be a law against pretty much everything. Best not to provide an easy excuse.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Tawpie

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

I ride the main roads in my town and state routes with 55 mph speed limits but most back roads in my rural town are all 50 mph speed limits .I’ve passed cops numerous times and I usually just wave at them .I’ve had one follow me into a parking lot just because he thought it was awesome and wanted to check out my wheel 🤣🤘

[TantasStarke]

I fly by cops going 40+. Never had an issue and never heard of anyone having an issue in my city with police

[lazybones99]

Last week on a ride in the suburbs, I saw an officer with a radar gun so I turned where he was parked.

He said he clocked me at 32 mph in a 35 zone - so I asked him if there was a lower speed limit that I had to follow because I’m not in a car. He said “the speed limit is 35…. and that thing is really cool!”

Then he said, “If you don’t mind, can you backtrack and pass me again - but go faster next time.”

So I did 😎

[Crab]

All the cops I have seen in 2400 miles frankly don't seem to care here in the greater Seattle/Snohomish County area. 

[alcatraz]

Stay right, ride respectfully, use a helmet and hand signals. Don't ride a 50kg massive wheel. Then you're more like a cyclist = ok.

[TantasStarke]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:23 PM, TantasStarke said:

I fly by cops going 40+. Never had an issue and never heard of anyone having an issue in my city with police

Since then I've been pulled over once but the cop had no idea what to do and told me to ride on the sidewalk (which not even bicycles can do legally in my state) and let me go