About turn signals built-in to EUCs (split from: Leaperkim Lynx)

[InfiniteWheelie]

On 11/28/2023 at 2:25 PM, Rawnei said:

Turn signals overall seems completely useless on an EUC both for the fact that it happens after rider already turned but also that many EUC riders like to carve so it's not really signalling anything useful.

I agree, the turn signals are a complete gimmick with no practical benefit. I’d like to see them go too, or at least an option to turn it off.

Even if they were implemented properly with a remote to active them before the turn, I still don’t think they’re necessary. We have the benefit of having both hands free to signal left and right, which is probably more noticeable than a turn signal anyway.

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by RagingGrandpa
(added quote after splitting thread)

[techyiam]

IDK, maybe voice activated turn signals. One of my hands is usually carrying something. 

[PourUC]

7 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

I agree, the turn signals are a complete gimmick with no practical benefit. I’d like to see them go too, or at least an option to turn it off.

Even if they were implemented properly with a remote to active them before the turn, I don’t think they’re necessary. We have the benefit of having both hands free to signal left and right, which is probably more noticeable than a turn signal anyway.

I think they are a nice addition. If they were activated by a small remote it wouldn't be an issue as you could velcro/stitch it to the back of a glove or onto your jacket. Indicators are magical at night and people have to interpret your arm signals despite them being a standard, where as car drivers have indicators imprinted into their heads so they process what they mean much more quickly.

I think though, EUC's are not wide enough to really have them. I would like them don't get me wrong but I think the best implementation would be with them attached to your pads as far out as possible. 

[Duster]

On 11/29/2023 at 5:44 AM, PourUC said:

I think they are a nice addition. If they were activated by a small remote it wouldn't be an issue as you could velcro/stitch it to the back of a glove or onto your jacket. Indicators are magical at night and people have to interpret your arm signals despite them being a standard, where as car drivers have indicators imprinted into their heads so they process what they mean much more quickly.

I think though, EUC's are not wide enough to really have them. I would like them don't get me wrong but I think the best implementation would be with them attached to your pads as far out as possible. 

I use an aftermarket turn signal for bicycles/ebikes. It's an older one designed to be in the back of those bags that go under your seat, and the turn signal light is removable. I made a pouch for it out of a plastic pouch for a phone case (reinforced with duct tape) and attached it to the bottom of my backpack. I mcguivered the remote to my wrist brace with one of those wrist straps so it's always with me. It's helpful, but I have a few concerns

1. It's probably not bright enough. I mean, I found it at a thrift store and it was definitely originally sold by Amazon, so it definitely wasn't designed to be properly bright.

2. I still need a signal in the FRONT so that oncoming vehicles can see my intentions.

3. Using my arms to accommodate isn't enough. Many don't understand what am am sticking out means, ironically. Worse yet, signaling at high speed makes you turn unintentionally (often in the OPPOSITE direction than you intend to turn). So signals are safer.

4. For vehicles to be registrable, they need to have mirrors, turn signals, and the proper head and tail lights. Now, the mirrors are something that cannot reasonably work other than our glove or helmet-mounted ones, but I don't think we can expect lights that are mounted as far out as pads are, given that they'd break the moment you drop the wheel.

If I were to have the most ideal set up, all euc head and tail lights would have remote-controlled turn signals on them. And to make them clearly readable (given how narrow EUC are) the signals would be shaped like arrows with the lights in the middle (like "<[][]>" or "<0>"). Heck, maybe for the sake of having a physical option in the case that the remote gets lost, there could be a set of Low-profile turn signal buttons ("left" "off" "right") mounted near each wheel's monitor.

If I come across the materials and know-how to make some of this stuff for my SS, I'd gladly do it!

[PourUC]

1 hour ago, Duster said:

that they'd break the moment you drop the wheel.

Nah, they wouldn't break unless you had a bad crash, People already have lights in their pads that remain working after crashes. It's worth saying that a drop can easily break indicators on most motorbikes without crash sliders (most of them). It's a symptom of indicators being as far apart as possible.

Having them close together makes it harder to tell which direction they are pointing towards. 

 

[Duster]

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

Nah, they wouldn't break unless you had a bad crash, People already have lights in their pads that remain working after crashes. It's worth saying that a drop can easily break indicators on most motorbikes without crash sliders (most of them). It's a symptom of indicators being as far apart as possible.

Having them close together makes it harder to tell which direction they are pointing towards. 

 

Of course lights within pads would be protected during a crash, considering they're encapsulated within a protective case, so to speak. When I imagine indicators installed stock, by the manufacturers, I couldn't begin to expect them to be designed durable enough not to break or be weakened by a drop at standstill. In a sense, EUC head and tail lights are already protected by crash sliders, those being the handlebars/bumpers.  And, as you suggest, making turn signals further apart brings greater risk of breaking, if not awakening.

All that considered, it would be more likely that EUC manufacturer's would make turn signals built-in with the head and tail lights. If that ends up being the case, the best compromise instead of turning signals being far from the bodies of the EUCs would be to have the turning signals be arrows, maybe even facing a little towards the sides of the EUCs.

I mean, arrows are universally understood, regardless of how close or far apart they are. So for the sake of minimizing material use and maximizing durability, that's the best solution I can foresee being adopted (that is, if EUC manufacturers end up caring about signals).

[Paul g]

On 11/29/2023 at 3:51 AM, techyiam said:

IDK, maybe voice activated turn signals. One of my hands is usually carrying something. 

     Artificial intelligence   

[PourUC]

15 hours ago, Duster said:

Of course lights within pads would be protected during a crash, considering they're encapsulated within a protective case, so to speak. When I imagine indicators installed stock, by the manufacturers, I couldn't begin to expect them to be designed durable enough not to break or be weakened by a drop at standstill. In a sense, EUC head and tail lights are already protected by crash sliders, those being the handlebars/bumpers.  And, as you suggest, making turn signals further apart brings greater risk of breaking, if not awakening.

All that considered, it would be more likely that EUC manufacturer's would make turn signals built-in with the head and tail lights. If that ends up being the case, the best compromise instead of turning signals being far from the bodies of the EUCs would be to have the turning signals be arrows, maybe even facing a little towards the sides of the EUCs.

I mean, arrows are universally understood, regardless of how close or far apart they are. So for the sake of minimizing material use and maximizing durability, that's the best solution I can foresee being adopted (that is, if EUC manufacturers end up caring about signals).

At night time, a small flashing arrow just looks like a yellow blob.

The main way people know the direction is based on the indicators position in relation to the rest of the vehicle. Closer together are simply less readable. The idea is that drivers shouldn't have to actively process what they are seeing.

My idea of indicators being inside pads would come down to OEMs to make good pads or for 3rd parties to include them within their pads. I am already against accelerometer based activation so a remote would be needed and that could be done by either OEM or 3rd party.

EUC's are a novel transport method, but they follow many ideas and principles that have already been studied. Motorcycles have a minimum indicator distance for a reason. It wasn't just because legislators in various countries decided to do it on a whim.

 

[Duster]

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

At night time, a small flashing arrow just looks like a yellow blob.

If that were true, no matter the number of lights that make the turn signal, the shape of the signal, or the kind of light being used, then we likely wouldn't use traffic signal lights with arrows. That said, I think you might be thinking about normal turning signal bulbs, not LED lights. In cars, the use of LEDs has enabled much more recognizable car profiles, including at night from a distance. I would sooner expect LED turn signals than traditional ones to be used in EUC.

 

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

Motorcycles have a minimum indicator distance for a reason.

In a brief search, not much information is found, save for this description from NHTSA.

Table IV of Standard No. 108 requires motorcycle turn signal lamps to be located "at or near the rear" and to have "a minimum horizontal separation distance (centerline to centerline of lamps) of 9 inches."

https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/86-233

However I also found indication that other countries have differing requirements based on the width of the vehicle. Realistically, EUC won't be regulated exactly like motorcycle's (maybe more like sit-down scooters), so it's likely the standards would be different also, especially because EUC are much narrower.

https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/legal-distance-between-rear-indicators.716549/

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

My idea of indicators being inside pads would come down to OEMs to make good pads or for 3rd parties to include them within their pads.

My concern is that, when the time comes to regulate EUCs, they'll need to have turning signals from the factory, or to do some legal loophole jumping and then require end users to install lights themselves. If we are hoping for manufacturer's to make good pads from the factory... That might be like waiting for every manufacturer to make pedals as grippy as third party ones, and even Begode's pedals have been breaking lately with some thinner designs.  The thing is, if we want durable turn signals to come from the factory, they likely won't (or shouldn't) be mounted as far out as pads.

 

There could be a compromise to hope for, though! From a photo of a Harley Davidson's rear turn signals, we see they are mounted (in a vertical sense) just to the sides of the rear tire. If EUC were to follow logic like this, then the signals could be put on the fonts and backs of the cases. That would put them further to the sides than the head or tail lights, AND they could be more-reliably protected by bumpers (think of the metal bumpers on the battery cases of the Commander Mini/GT. Designing a light between those bumpers and the battery cases, and making the pumpers shaped to go around them, would make a good-faith effort to separate turn signals while also protecting them in the case of a fall).

 

(The aforementioned photo of a Harley)

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/harley-davidson-road-glide-special-rear-view-alghero-italy-april-91598968.jpg

[Tomallo]

How about this, lol

Visibility in various conditions? Check. Increasing the distance from the center? Check. What could go wrong?

[PourUC]

6 minutes ago, Tomallo said:

How about this, lol

Visibility in various conditions? Check. Increasing the distance from the center? Check. What could go wrong?

In all fairness, this is a good idea for a car. It's just a cost and reliability thing (moving part in actuating the indicator).

This is a good example of what I want, but just integrate it into the pads.

[PourUC]

I was going to save my comment for when it got split.

The Harley has lights there because it's panniers are detachable. On EUC's pads once setup are rarely removed for the sake of it. On bikes, panniers make handling 'worse' where as on EUCs they improve it.

Also, I don't care about getting regulated as that will never happen where I am (UK). It's purely about functionality. Ensuring that other people can instantly recognize what I am trying to signal. In the dark regardless of led formation, on a small indicator in the dark it just looks like an orange blob. Even if it's strobing in a particular direction it isn't as clear as just moving the indicator as reasonably as possible, away from the centre of the unit.

Here is an example of the Grizzla pads lighting system. Now imagine if the bottom reflectors were indicators instead. 

[Duster]

21 hours ago, PourUC said:

In all fairness, this is a good idea for a car. It's just a cost and reliability thing (moving part in actuating the indicator).

This is a good example of what I want, but just integrate it into the pads.

Funnily enough this photo is what I was thinking (it's very similar to the Harley photo), but just integrate them into the fronts and backs of the battery cases (if you look at the photo of the SS you attached, imagine the lights on the battery boxes, in-between the red bumpers). Lol!

Also, I still don't think all lights are blobs from a proper signaling distance. I *have* an LED bicycle turning signal that uses arrows (both directions projected from one light housing), and it's intelligible from a distance. Maybe I'll take a photo of it on my wheel from a distance at night to show what I mean (though seeing things in-person is always more accurate). Regardless, that intelligibility, combined with just a little bit of offset from mounting on the body of the wheel, should be plenty enough if they're mounted on the body of the wheel.

The only ways I can think of the light being unintelligible is if it's mounted on the same hosting as the headlight AND the headlight is blinding oncoming traffic. While the shared headlight/signal housing was my first idea, I think mounting the signals on the battery boxes also addresses this, as they would be lower, like the motorcycle pictured here.

16 hours ago, PourUC said:

I was going to save my comment for when it got split.

The Harley has lights there because it's panniers are detachable. On EUC's pads once setup are rarely removed for the sake of it. On bikes, panniers make handling 'worse' where as on EUCs they improve it.

Also, I don't care about getting regulated as that will never happen where I am (UK). It's purely about functionality. Ensuring that other people can instantly recognize what I am trying to signal. In the dark regardless of led formation, on a small indicator in the dark it just looks like an orange blob. Even if it's strobing in a particular direction it isn't as clear as just moving the indicator as reasonably as possible, away from the centre of the unit.

Here is an example of the Grizzla pads lighting system. Now imagine if the bottom reflectors were indicators instead. 

My only concern about regulation is making it easier for every rider to have well-equipped vehicles as easily as possible. Turning signals are SUPER helpful and safety-promoting, and a lot of beginner riders might not have thought about pads, let alone pads with proper signals. I know I didn't even I started out.

Relatedly, I'm asked almost daily if I need a license to ride my EUC, and I answer with (all local regulations start with "for vehicles with TWO or more wheels"). While the strangers and I get to have a laugh, it reminds me that regulation is on other people's minds. One thing I learned from a video where a cop pulled over a motorcyclist doing 100 on a highway was when the Cop said "[car drivers] can't run you off the road, but they can vote you off the road."  To me, that means that demonstrating we deserve the privilege to ride on roads with our EUCs (due to the fact that "we live in a society" where others can mess with each other's hobbies through our legal systems) must be done actively AND passively. That means riding reasonably (fun IS allowed though!), and also making sure your EUC is defendable as a well-equipped vehicle. That's why I'm racking my brain around what manufacturers are most likely to do right *stock.* And I don't know who sticks with stock pads. Aside from those pads that seem to be getting shipped with the Patton/V14 by EUC vendors (who actually makes those pads, I wonder).

 

Let me be clear, pads with turn signals are a great idea. However, pads are such a personal point of customization, and I could hardly see everyone's personal favorite pads getting proper signals... But pads with signals would arguably make *all* wheels capable of being fit with turning signals... So yeah, someone should develop them (and make some big bucks at that!), but I think we'll reach 100mph wheels sooner than manufacturers make satisfactory stock pads.

[GothamMike]

I attached cheap LEDs to my wrists/gloves. Hand signals become much more visible.

[Hellkitten]

1 hour ago, GothamMike said:

I attached cheap LEDs to my wrists/gloves. Hand signals become much more visible.

I did exactly the same. Seems like the easiest solution. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[PurpleRiderUSA]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:32 PM, Hellkitten said:

I did exactly the same. Seems like the easiest solution. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Same. I use a slightly narrow elongated yellow light attached to my wrist guard. It makes a MASSIVE difference in safety for myself and helps drivers too. I keep these lights on even in broad daylight. 

Here you can see my light setup:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C0QbC5utKKl/

[Duster]

I've also been using some lights on my wrists. I figure a bracelet would be best so that I'm easily signaling in front and behind. The ones I have are cheap ones from home depot, though, so I need to get brighter ones in the near future.