Roll Model

This could add quite a bit of capability to an EUC... What do you think?

So the report claimed that a pound in the wheels was similar to two pounds on the frame...So of all the weight on your bike you could shed the "weight in the wheel" is worth TWICE what ever other weight you could shed...On vehicles where grams cost $100's and $100's of dollars you may have misunderstood the reports 'findings' lol But adding 120grams to the axle ("the wheel") is not the same as adding 120grams to the tire. So the report proves the most 'important' weight you can remove to increase the performance would be in the tires by a 2:1 ratio! Race cars use 'Mags' not steel wheels, right? They don't use slime even though a flat could cost them millions. How come? If you can't patch a tube reliably then the conversation is a bit moot. If you can't find the leak then your ability to patch is irreverent. Since we don't race EUC's and almost never have to drain the battery in order to enjoy EUC's a few extra pounds added to the rotation weight would have little impact for recreation activities. A flat (even on a bike) seems to send even rational/capable people into fear and confidence that failure is the only option... Slime on!

Having had a bike with two sets of wheels, one for training and one for racing I can only say you have been sadly misled. The idea that weight added to the wheel is the same or similar to weight on the frame is simply wrong. I have felt the difference and seen the millage increase in changing to lighter tires on my SUV for Christ's sake. Empirical experiences have educated me. Adding a passenger to my truck makes no difference you can feel. But changing to a set of tires that weighed 50 pounds more per tire would make an obvious difference just as changing to a set that was only a few pounds lighter made a noticeable difference. Accelerating 120grams is simply not the same as carrying 120grams - When you are climbing it is the same as constantly accelerating the load over and over and over, so a static 120grams carried up a mountain is not the same. As for the comments about 'Sprung weight' vs 'un-sprung weight' - these have NOTING to do with motive force. It concerns the suspensions ability to accelerate the wheel assembly (downward) to respond to potholes in the road and absorb/control the momentum and motion (upward) caused by bumps in the road. These are parameters that allow the suspension to keep the tire in contact with the road, which aside from traction, has zero - Absolutely zero consideration of the work load being done by the vehicle. In other words, more or less un-sprung weight has no effect on how easily the car accelerates, decelerates, or rolls at a steady pace. It has only to do with the 'ride quality' - Not speed (excepting traction dependent and potential control issues). Hell, I have changed to a lighter inner tube on a bike and felt the difference, lol - This isn't even open to discussion, try it on a bike. The Micheleins on my SUV have paper thin side walls but have a larger contact zone - The millage gain was obvious over the OEM General Tire's as was the acceleration gain. Believe how you wish, try to experiment for yourself. @Chris Westland...A little knowledge doesn't help. You have some understanding of the terms but clearly have failed to grasp the concepts behind your reading - If you put the braking system 'in-board' (as they do in many race cars) all the weight of the disks' and calipers - All that gear simply doesn't go up and down with the wheel. The car will go no slower and no faster because of this. The wheel will be 'lighter' to raise and lower but the rotation weight will be unchanged...So no more or less efficient. The suspension has less weight to deal with, so it is easier/better at controlling the tires motion but the 'efficiency' of the car doesn't change on a flat smooth road - Both configurations (inboard or traditional outboard) would give the same gas consumption. Sprung and un-sprung weight are not rotational, which is the subject here and while you correctly realized that neither had anything to do with EUC's you failed to grasp the significance of that fact

"Pulling the Axle"...Not sure of that reference? Like I said, if you can't you can't. I have an MTB buddy and patching a tube is well beyond his capabilities - He simply can't do it, even after 20 years of ridding. You can often SEE THE THORN, THE GLASS, THE NAIL if you look. But you need to find the leak as the first order of business. I guess you have to have a positive open mind because if you have convinced yourself that it will be impossible to find and so don't really try... Blow up the tire and listen for a hiss? Blow up the tire and feel for a hiss? Blow up the tire and squirt it with a water bottle..? You did say it had an leak, right? 99% of the holes will be on the ridding surface of the tube (less than 25% of the tube) so it really isn't that tough. There is a hole, most the time you can see it, you will always be able to feel air escaping from it and it will be making a noise. Check the stem for leaks if you can't find a thorn, glass, nail, hole or jet blast... You see the picture I posted of the sew up tires? That's about as much as ever got opened at one time and in that case you could not remove the tube from the tire to examine it - You had to figure out where the leak was before you CUT INTO THE TIRE If you look, you will find the leak. Pump up the tire, you'll find it. You may have to sniff it out, you can feel and smell the breeze, but in any case, if there is a leak it can't really hide.

120 gram added to the tire may not be trivial if you accelerate and decelerate constantly - At a steady pace I guess it would matter less... It really depends on other parameters to determine how it plays into the over all equation.

Yeah, that can be an issue - But if you don't do all that, don't disassemble it all right away you can often find the problem. When that is the case you can fix it with out a lot of BS. You can use a wax/grease crayon to mark the hole when you find it Often you can see the thorn or glass or nail or what ever, sometimes you can hear/feel it hissing (add more air!). You should generally ensure that what ever punctured your tube is not still embedded in the tire casing, so you will have to 'find the problem' if you can. It is the slow leaks that are the real pains in the butt. A good strong hole is easier to find and easy to fix. You can use the water bath method with the wheel still mounted to the EUC...Often you can find it by ear with no water. If you do take your wheel out of the EUC and the tire off the rim, then take some time to make sure the inside of the rim is very smooth or covered with a rim strip - That way you can confine your punctures to the rolling surfaces of the tube... Use talcum powder before assembly.

With that attitude I just might put together a few stills or a short vid - You sound like you'd actually like to find an easier way.

For reference, I found this... http://jimlangley.blogspot.com/2011/11/q-gluing-and-repairing-sew-up-tires.html

Hey if you can't you can't. I can (even if it near the stem). You still talk of 'getting the tire off'... You still talk of 'working the tube off the rim'... And all the other none sense that I am sure lot's of people do. I don't. I have a valve cover that allows me to remove the core - So even all that pumping the way you do it...and the un-pumping is simply not the 'best' way. I won't be making a vid any time soon - You sound very confident and clearly are welded to the what you think is the only way it can go. I have no interest in you funding anything. I have patched dozens and dozens of tubes (100's?) that way. I worked in a bike shop, regularly rode over 200 miles a week (for decades), raced MTB's and commuted daily to Hollywood and so I did have an opportunity to develop my skills - LOL It is a technique I learned in high school when I rode a bike with 'sew-ups' - Which have very thin tubes sewn into the tire. First you peel a small amount of the tire which is glues onto the rim, then remove a few inches of the tape which is glued over the stitches. Then you carefully cut open the stitches to gain access to the tube (about 3"-4")...Pull a little out and patch the tube, insert it back into the tire (adding talcum powder), sew it back up, glue the fabric tape over the stitches and re-glue the tire to the rim (some people used tape, some used rim glue). Inflate to 135psi and make sure it runs true! Look it up, it was the state of the art racing tire for decades and no one EVER removed the tube from the tire to repair the tube. They were very expensive so repair was the only option. Normally people rode with a spare tire, but I got so good at repairing them I discovered there was no need to carry a 3rd tire. The fact that you can't, or can't imagine an alternative does not impress me. I'm ok with that!

LOL, maybe for you - But to replace the tube the rim/wheel/motor must be removed from the EUC... THEN you'd have to remove half the tire and insert a rather uncooperative new tube, making sure it is 'in correctly' and not wrinkled too much, re-seat the entire opened bead, inflate it and THEN go about reinstalling the tire/tube/rim/motor back into the EUC. The alternative is to unseat about 10" of tire on one side and pull out a small section of tube and effect a repair, which takes seconds, seconds NOT MINUTES. Pump it it up and GO!!! (3 minutes TOPS) Replacement takes much, much longer (and you have to have a tube where as a repair kit can fit in your shirt pocket) - What happens when you replace the tube and get a 2nd flat right away? With the patch kit you can carry 3, 5 or even 10 patches so you'll always be protected, always be able to ride home. Your way takes what, 30 minutes if you bust ass and have a work bench and a tray full of tools? Patching takes minutes and you can do it any where - But operate as you please, take 45 minutes to do a 180 second task. Don't let me hinder you

Look above - Kingsong has instructions and a vid - That's what I was referencing. As to your other comments - I just have to laugh, what did the 2nd flat have to do with the first flat? I mean unless you failed to fix the first puncture correctly? I have a tire in my MTB that has over ten different patches on it. None of them leak, none of them increase the vulnerability of the tube to additional punctures...Been rdding that same (ultra light weight) tube for years. So even if you had replaced the tube with a brand new one how would that impact the next thorn or glass or snake bite you got into? This is the fear/superstition/ignorance factor that rares it's head every time flats come up - It is what keeps the slime company in the money! Use a stick like this one Watch Video you certainly don't have to remove the tire from the rim, the wheel from the EUC or detach any wires or use any wenches, pliers or other tools to simply patch a dam tube, unseat a few inches of bead, pull out 3" - 4" of tube and do your thing - As I said I would never remove a tire and never remove the wheel just to fix a flat. It simply isn't necessary.

Lighter wheels, rims and tires et all will increase the performance of your car, your bike, your Euc...There is little to 'figure out' in regard to that, but many experiences with bikes and cars have lern't me. How much loss is unclear and it's magnitude would vary quite a bit during a typical ride. I know there are ZERO bike road racing teams that us it and the same number of Mountain bike teams - If they get a flat it can end the race for them! But if I can feel it in a car when I install a lighter tire (and see the gas mileage go up) and feel it when I had a bike with a weekend set and a racing set of tires/rims (that difference was huge) then I suspect it would come into play here as well. When you ask a quantitative question the answers become rather meaningless as we are never in a world where we must give 100% effort, 100% of the time unless we are in a race. Most the time we smell a few roses, avoid bumps and dog poop and we don't wear aerodynamic clothing or use a stop watch every where we go. If the range of your Bot is 30 miles and you increased it by 10% would you notice it in general use? How about on a 12 mile ride? But the 'seat of the pants' feel could change if you are a sporty operator. If you never push your EUC then it couldn't matter, put tractor tires on it and call it a [short] day of ridding. I generally choose performance when I have a choice. I guess if I had a really bad bout with flats I might change my mind but they get easier to fix the more often you do it I think the slime obsession stems from fear and ignorance - Of course you can put slime in your car tires as well, but when was the last time you actually had a flat? If you live in a really flat prone area...Your quantitative Equations may vary... All I am saying is that there is no free lunch, slime protection has a price.

Slime will reduce the efficiency of your rig. It adds to the energy required to accelerate your EUC and it uses additional energy to maintain a given speed... For many, getting a puncture is one of the worst things they can imagine - But the truth is that it isn't very tough to repair. A hole in your inner tube is not reason to replace the tube. Thick tubes, thick tires, "Mr. Tuffy" (http://mrtuffy.com/) protection strips, Tire Wipers (https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/fenders/tire-wipers/) and slime are all ways to prevent flats, but all will suck up a portion of the energy you have on tap. For many, the fear and inconvenience of getting a flat simply out weigh everything else... If you go the slime route then you will have to consider the huge mess you will have on your hands if you ever wear out or decide to upgrade your tire.

You don't have to replace a tube because it got punctured! Just patch the dam thing. On most these wheels there is plenty of room to remove just a small portion of the tube (at the affected spot) with out even removing the wheel or even the tire. There is simply no need to remove the tire from the rim to patch a tube. 3 minutes and 50 cents later you're off! But of the two methods discussed above I would drop the entire wheel by pulling the axle and leaving both side covers and as much of the electrics untouched a possible - But you only need to remove the rim and the tire IF you are replacing the tube. Repairing the tube, leave all that stuff in place.

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