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Will the InMotion V10 replace the V8 as number one seller?


Mono
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If the V8 is the number one seller (is it?), it is because of price (aka 16 inches at <1000 instead of >1300). Since the V10 is more expensive, not sure if they're easily comparable. If someone would make a <1000 16 incher that's a bit newer/more modern/price-competitive than the V8 (maybe >1000W motor etc)) , that might be the new #1 seller.

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8 minutes ago, Keith said:

The ideal scenario is an affordable wheel with a relatively small battery but lots of motor power that can easily and simply be upgraded as required.

Yea, something like this. In the end, price counts, and this is how you get a lower one that's more accessible to newcomers. But since 4P already means a big battery, maybe a strong/powerful cheaper model simply does not work technically?

Alternatively, manufacturers could concurrently sell the last generation models at lower prices, but that doesn't seem to happen, they keep their price pretty much until they're out of stock, with only some minor reductions. Maybe since batteries and manufacturing are fixed costs, selling "old" wheels cheaper makes no sense?

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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On 4/14/2018 at 3:44 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Maybe since batteries and manufacturing are fixed costs, selling "old" wheels cheaper makes no sense.

It rather depends upon stock levels. I learned a valuable lesson from a friend who ran a market stall at weekends. ( feel free to change £ to $ or € and p to cents in the below it still works)

He purchased 2000 small earphone radios wholesale that were all the rage at the time for £1 each = £2000 

He sold the first 1000 for £3 each, but then the market was fairly saturated and sales dropped off.

The next week he put the others out for sale at 50p each - half what he paid for them. The guy on the next stall was furious, he had also paid £1 each and sure as hell was not going to sell them at a loss.

My friend sold his last 1000 at 50p each OK, the guy on the next stall didn’t sell any more.

My friend’s view was “I paid £2000 for the stock and when I sold them all I had a revenue of £3500 - a profit of £1500 - I absolutely did not sell at a loss, I just made sure I realised the best return I could.”

Edited by Keith
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Remember a few months ago when the ninebot one s1 went on sale for $299?  They were selling old overstock at a loss.  Now they are back up to $499 at the same amazon seller.

I don't know if they are making a profit, but at the least they are cutting their losses.

https://www.amazon.com/Segway-Balancing-Personal-Transporter-Control/dp/B01M1SFFNE

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I don't believe the V10 replaces the V8. When I was looking to buy I had to choose between the V5F+, the V8 and the KS16S. I really liked the larger motor and battery of the KS16S but the price was just too much for my first wheel. The V8 fit perfectly. The battery was large enough for 99% of my rides and the motor was OK for my weight of 170lb (Inc backpack). It was sub $1000 which was a mental limit for me. I love my V8. The V10 now occupies the position the KS16S had in that decision. It's too much for most first time riders. 

Now the V8 is getting a little long in the tooth compared to other wheels on the market now and is due an update without a price increase. I'd like to see a 1200W motor (at a minimum) and an increase in the number of parallel battery packs to spread the current load. If they moved to an external handle like the V5/10 I think they could fit a 3P design in the current shell but that increases weight and price. This is where I'm very interested to see how the Ninebot Z series works out. They have bucked the voltage trend by dropping the voltage into the 50's (for regulatory and certification purposes I believe). Thus less cells per parallel pack and the ability to fit more parallel packs in the same volume/weight/price (6P in the Z10 vs 4P in the V10 at near similar capacities). Maybe this will be the direction of the smaller and lighter wheels while increasing safety with regards to current draw capability and keeping price low? I guess we will see how the Z series performs. 

Edit: Forgetting basic physics P/V = I (lower voltage, more current). More packs will just negate the higher current draw.

Edited by WARPed1701D
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1 hour ago, Keith said:

The ideal scenario is an affordable wheel with a relatively small battery but lots of motor power that can easily and simply be upgraded as required.

That would be the Uniwheel :), more powerful than the V8, yet cheaper and 3kg lighter and with unlimited battery upgrades. If it only had a trolley handle.

Edited by Mono
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2 minutes ago, Mono said:

That would be the Uniwheel :), more powerful than the V8, yet cheaper and lighter and with unlimited battery upgrades.

They also used different Lithium battery tech with increased safety from runaway fires and significant current discharge ability. Sadly I believe this tech is more expensive than standard Li-Ion cells. 

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2 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

They also used different Lithium battery tech with increased safety from runaway fires and significant current discharge ability. Sadly I believe this tech is more expensive than standard Li-Ion cells. 

Where did you get the latter information from? My research on this topic concluded that LiFePO4 as used in the Uniwheel are cheaper per cycle. That of course can change in time due to mass production (I assume LiCoO2 cells outnumber LiFePO4 cells by a large margin) or by new production technology.

EDIT: the conclusion seems to be that they are more expensive per Wh capacity, but cheaper per delivered output power (Watts) and per lifetime delivered Wh.

Edited by Mono
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in many applications the 3.1/.2V (LiFeP04) vs. 3.6/.7V Nominal voltage for cobalt and some other chemistries is actually pretty significant, the total energy say in an 18650 cell can be quite a bit higher 40-50%, nothing to sneer at.  The robustness and increased cycle count of the LiFePO4 cells make them well suited to DIY Solar Applications but they have to fight the extra capacity when it comes to Electric Vehicles and other high energy applications (they win for some people).  Sometimes the voltage difference is enough to swing things when one needs a series string of cells.

 

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56 minutes ago, Mono said:

Where did you get the latter information from? My research on this topic concluded that LiFePO4 as used in the Uniwheel are cheaper per cycle. That of course can change in time due to mass production (I assume LiCoO2 cells outnumber LiFePO4 cells by a large margin) or by new production technology.

 

It is just what I recalled (probably not right). Cheaper per cycle I'm sure....but ignoring longevity are they not more expensive to produce in the first place? Most people on here seem to feel that current LiCoO2 battery lifespan is more than enough for the expected life of a unicycle so any additional longevity is lost on most riders.

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1 hour ago, Mono said:

That would be the Uniwheel :), more powerful than the V8, yet cheaper and 3kg lighter and with unlimited battery upgrades. If it only had a trolley handle.

I'd still love to try one of these out. I think it is an ideal wheel for most use intracity/last mile use cases (except the missing handle as you mentioned). It is sad that the Uniwheel team have not followed up on here from their initial recent post. I feel Inmotion's presence here has significantly boosted their standing within the community. Uniwheel could do with that.

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6 hours ago, Keith said:

It rather depends upon stock levels. I learned a valuable lesson from a friend who ran a market stool at weekends. ( feel free to change £ to $ or € and p to cents in the below it still works)

He purchased 2000 small earphone radios wholesale that were all the rage at the time for £1 each = £2000 

He sold the first 1000 for £3 each, but then the market was fairly saturated and sales dropped off.

The next week he put the others out for sale at 50p each - half what he paid for them. The guy on the next stool was furious, he had also paid £1 each and sure as hell was not going to sell them at a loss.

My friend sold his last 1000 at 50p each OK, the guy on the next stool didn’t sell any more.

My friend’s view was “I paid £2000 for the stock and when I sold them all I had a revenue of £3500 - a profit of £1500 - I absolutely did not sell at a loss, I just made sure I realised the best return I could.”

Capitalism :thumbup:

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18 hours ago, Keith said:

The ideal scenario is an affordable wheel with a relatively small battery but lots of motor power that can easily and simply be upgraded as required. For many, perhaps who cannot comfortably carry a high weight and/or need only to use it for last mile, maybe it’s spec will remain enough, for others being able to upgrade to increase the battery size would make the purchase a safer bet. If top speed was also limited by battery size as well such that an upgrade also released extra speed then I think such a wheel would really be a winner.

O H.      M Y.     G O D.

2 hours after I posted the above, @Jason McNeil posts this:

How is that for service ???. Or is it just spooky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Keith
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2 hours ago, Keith said:

O H.      M Y.     G O D.

2 hours after I posted the above, @Jason McNeil posts this:

 

2 hours ago, Keith said:

How is that for service ???. Or is it just spooky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lotto numbers please!  :innocent1:

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On 4/14/2018 at 5:47 PM, WARPed1701D said:

They also used different Lithium battery tech with increased safety from runaway fires and significant current discharge ability. Sadly I believe this tech is more expensive than standard Li-Ion cells. 

these are the prices I found for replacement batteries

480Wh Li-Ion for V8:
$385 https://www.ewheels.com/product/v8-480wh-removeable-battery-pack
€549 https://store.urban360.com/produit/batterie-inmotion-v8

meaning $0.75 or €1.14 per Wh 

132Wh LiFe (1.2kg) for Uniwheel:
£150  http://uniwheel.co.uk/shop

meaning £1.14 per Wh

Edited by Mono
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1 hour ago, Mono said:

these are the prices I found for replacement batteries

480Wh Li-Ion for V8:
$385 https://www.ewheels.com/product/v8-480wh-removeable-battery-pack
€549 https://store.urban360.com/produit/batterie-inmotion-v8

meaning $0.75 or €1.14 per Wh 

132Wh LiFe for Uniwheel:
£150  http://uniwheel.co.uk/shop

meaning £1.14 per Wh

I stand corrected.

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52 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

I stand corrected.

Literally you were correct, only that the (smallish) price difference is probably not all too relevant.

Assuming the superior power and smaller voltage drop of LiFe, it even seems not "fair" to compare the same capacity (for usage in an EUC). This alleviates the weight disadvantage, possibly close to zero (not sure what the "fair" comparison would be).

Edited by Mono
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3 hours ago, Mono said:

Assuming the superior power and smaller voltage drop of LiFe, it even seems not "fair" to compare the same capacity (for usage in an EUC). This alleviates the weight disadvantage, possibly close to zero (not sure what the "fair" comparison would be).

Not quite sure how this Inmotion V10 thread ended up as LiFePO4 but never mind.

The one BIG feature of LiFe cells, which Uniwheel do point out, is that internal cell resistance is VERY low. They hold voltage superbly under load even when nearly empty. This means an EUC powered by a LiFe battery will have good strong power right down to 10% charge or even lower. So whilst it might have half the range of a similar weight and size LI Ion all that range is comfortably usable.

The voltage of a Li Ion 18650 pack  will have dropped by the time it’s got down to 40% or so to the point where power, top speed, etc. are reduced enough to not be nice to ride - in reality you might actually only really get 10 or 15% more usable range from a Li Ion pack of twice the capacity of a LiFePO4 pack AND, discharging LiFePO4 packs right down does way, way less harm to them than Li Ion packs which, ideally, you do not want to regularly discharge below 30%.

Actually that very good voltage holding does have a down side as well, the packs I use as model aircraft receiver packs hold 3.3V per cell from around 90% capacity right down almost to the death, which means it is damn difficult to actually know how much range is left in a pack. Ideally you are going to need a Wattmeter to measure battery capacity based on how many watt hours you have consumed since last charge.

Edited by Keith
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22 minutes ago, Keith said:

Not quite sure how this Inmotion V10 thread ended up as LiFePO4 but never mind.

By wanting a beginner wheel which can transform into a long range wheel.

Then the conclusion seems to be that LiFe generally are the better choice for EUCs!?

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