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ACM2 1300 Wh vs. KS16s for newbie?


beast@tanagra

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I don't know your specific area, but it sounds like the Mten3, although a fun wheel, might not be the most versatile over varied terrain.  A 14-16 inch wheel I would say is the size you might want to start with.  After that have at it!

Regarding accident prediction, it's funny.  After you read the forums for a while you get a real sense of who's likely to end up experiencing a bad accident.  Scott and Charles were high on my short list, and sure enough I've seen some bad palms and tales of maximum speed cutouts.

I think for the "Old Timers," we see and understand the enthusiasm for this relatively new and fun means of transport, but we all wish to see the new people stay safe and be around for a long time like the rest of us.  It's not much fun meeting new people, getting to know them, share fun times, and then see them disappear suddenly due to something they might have avoided.  Accidents happen to anyone, but some accidents we can just see coming...  :eff05cf9bc:

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28 minutes ago, beast@tanagra said:

Radical (stupid?) thought:  What if I made an MTen3 my first wheel and tried to learn on that? Yes, I hear it's "not a beginner's wheel", but... I see a very good chance of it making it into my stable (as an ultraportable errand/trick wheel), and I can see possible advantages to taking a few months to work just on the sorts of things you can practice on it at very low, safe speeds. Assuming that -- with patience and padding -- I could make a go of it, do you think this would do more harm or good to my EUC skills in general?

In this scenario, I could wait until fall or winter to let the new wheels be released and objectively evaluated, potentially moving up to an 18" as my second wheel.

Thoughts?

This is a tough one. Although once you can ride, the Mten3 will be an amazingly fun wheel for you, offering endless fun.

Yet the Mten3 can be a challenging wheel for experienced riders, at least in the beginning. But everyone is so different. Maybe it wouldn't be harder to learn on, I just don't know.

You've probably seen a few of my Mten3 videos, so you know how much I enjoy it. If you feel adventurous ...

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41 minutes ago, beast@tanagra said:

Radical (stupid?) thought:  What if I made an MTen3 my first wheel and tried to learn on that? Yes, I hear it's "not a beginner's wheel", but... I see a very good chance of it making it into my stable (as an ultraportable errand/trick wheel), and I can see possible advantages to taking a few months to work just on the sorts of things you can practice on it at very low, safe speeds. Assuming that -- with patience and padding -- I could make a go of it, do you think this would do more harm or good to my EUC skills in general?

In this scenario, I could wait until fall or winter to let the new wheels be released and objectively evaluated, potentially moving up to an 18" as my second wheel.

Thoughts?

Put simply... The Mten3 is not a "first wheel."

Trolling around this forum you will occasionally see new riders deciding that this is "too hard" for them and they give it away. Starting on an Mten3 just increases the difficulty.

Start with a 16" wheel.

Go with the Kingsong - think of it like a potato...  Not necessarily the most exciting choice out there, but a fantastic staple that you will keep coming back to!

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10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

This is a tough one. Although once you can ride, the Mten3 will be an amazingly fun wheel for you, offering endless fun.

Yet the Mten3 can be a challenging wheel for experienced riders, at least in the beginning. But everyone is so different. Maybe it wouldn't be harder to learn on, I just don't know.

You've probably seen a few of my Mten3 videos, so you know how much I enjoy it. If you feel adventurous ...

I'm not afraid of a challenge as long as it's not going to kill me. The tiny scale on which people can do things on it fascinates me. Heck, I could probably take my first baby steps in a thinly-carpeted room of my house. My biggest fear with that wheel is more embarrassment than anything -- my family being like "you blew 1,000 bucks on... that?" I don't know. It was just a fun thought I had on my walk tonight -- imagining how I would traverse various routes on a tiny wheel. I would have to sleep on it a few nights, I think.

I do watch some of the You Tubes where people (seemingly always non-Americans) use a full-body twisting motion to do low-speed figure skating-style pirouhettes and hairpin turns on wheels that don't seem like they should be able to do that, and I wonder how much of this is down to their overall skill and experience, and how much of this is down to Americans learning first to do turns that depend more on the body lean that works only works well once you have enough speed. Are we... doing it wrong? Maybe learning on a wheel with less inertia would teach a twistier and more nimble style?

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1.  These EUCs are more difficult to learn for most people than they expect.

2.  Learning on a larger diameter wheel with some weight to it likely is easier than a smaller, light weight wheel due to the inherent stability of heavier objects tending to fall over slower.

3.  There are some wheel savants whom these generalities do not apply to.

4.  Only you know what you are capable of, and asking others is like asking what car is best to learn how to drive on.  We can only share our personal experiences and extrapolate from there as to what would work best for you.

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6 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

I truely believe @Jason McNeil  feels that way and his seal of approval is honest. Yes subjectivity will always enter the fray. Now when the Z models come out and the commentary begins: “ This is absolutely the most comfortable, awesome performing wheel ever built on planet Earth” then you just might have a case.  ;)

If pecuniary gain were the primary motivation to these claims, then I would be pushing either the GW or the KS16S, since the margins are better on these Wheels than the 10% discounted V10F. I've been too busy to spend much time on putting up any meaningful content on the V10F, a bit of counterproductive effort. 

For the claim of the most comfortable Wheel, it's not hard to see why: the battery, like the V5F/V8 is uniquely housed above the motor, so that despite the 2.5 wide tire, the profile is one [possibly THE] of the slimmest 16"s, including the V8, since there's no more protruding edges where that handle was. 

7 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I doubt the IM v10f to be more powerfull than the Tesla (and a bit even as the 16S) just because of the fact that IM is a bigger company and is more responsible!

But isn't this logic flawed? Making extremely powerful Wheels is not the issue (just the converse), it is the unregulated speed that has poses the greatest degree of risk.

I'm sure Inmotion and/or the European Distributors will have evaluation opportunities where you can test it out for yourself.

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8 hours ago, steve454 said:

598dc4615ad71_IMG_2301(1).JPG.3ff343d6473b4b40bcbd66562533d3f4.JPG

That second wheel looks like the best design.  Not much battery, but well made.

Rides like shit compared to the KS though.  The handles frequently came off, it was a weak point.  The handle was an after thought.  The peddle height was too low.  The peddles were slippery when wet.  They side battery cover was another weak point.  My battery popped out from a drop.   Are you saying it looks the best?

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6 hours ago, beast@tanagra said:

Radical (stupid?) thought:  What if I made an MTen3 my first wheel and tried to learn on that? Yes, I hear it's "not a beginner's wheel", but... I see a very good chance of it making it into my stable (as an ultraportable errand/trick wheel), and I can see possible advantages to taking a few months to work just on the sorts of things you can practice on it at very low, safe speeds. Assuming that -- with patience and padding -- I could make a go of it, do you think this would do more harm or good to my EUC skills in general?

In this scenario, I could wait until fall or winter to let the new wheels be released and objectively evaluated, potentially moving up to an 18" as my second wheel.

Thoughts?

There is a weak point in the battery.  I would be afraid to ride that wheel. 

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4 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

If pecuniary gain were the primary motivation to these claims, then I would be pushing either the GW or the KS16S, since the margins are better on these Wheels than the 10% discounted V10F. I've been too busy to spend much time on putting up any meaningful content on the V10F, a bit of counterproductive effort. 

Jason you know I have tremendous respect for you and I truely believe that your positive statements about the V10F are factually based and not for pecuniary gain. You definately experienced something unique about this wheel above the others you have ridden. Just the excitement about the wheel in your post was exhilarating to hear! With your unique opportunity to ride and compare almost every wheel on the planet there must be something special about the V10F that we all want to experience. 

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On 4/1/2018 at 2:03 AM, Marty Backe said:

With very little thought I can easily say that the two wheels I would keep would be my ACM2 and Mten3. The Mten3 gives me endless joy around town, and the ACM2 is a blast for all my distance or general purpose riding.

Of course Eddie has a valid opinion, but it must be remembered that his is like mine, an opinion. The only thing I disagree with him is his absurdness about how bad the MSuper is. I've owned the KS14 series for almost two years, and rode a KS18S for over 150-miles. KingSong wheels ride different than Gotway wheels and I quite liked the KS18S. Unlike Eddie, I actually like all wheels but do prefer some over others. Eddie on the other hand hates (he uses that word a lot) Gotway wheels. So in my opinion his view is more of the outlier than mine. There are a lot of people out that who ride Gotway wheels and seem to enjoy the experience. If I was limited to the KS16S I would be depressed. I would certainly enjoy it as a secondary wheel. But my only wheel? :cry2:

If you enjoy higher speeds and longer rides then Gotway has a lot more to offer.

Only you will know whether you enjoy higher speeds and long rides. If you do you'll grow out of the KS16S. And I try and remind people that you can configure the Gotway wheel to be just as slow as the KingSong wheels. Keep the alarms on and set the tilt-back to 22-mph and your ACM2 will behave similar to the KS16S but you'll be able to ride twice the distance :thumbup:

I actually believe that Gotway wheels can be configured to be safer than KingSong wheels. The ACM2 has an amazingly powerful motor and tough axle. Set the speed limit to 20-mph and you'll never get in an overspeed condition, yet you'll never get in a underpowered condition that could cause a cutout. The ACM2 will have endless reserve power.

Yeah.. just don’t bonk a wall, or a rock, or look at it wrong, or those Gotway mosfets are toast. ?. 

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On 3/31/2018 at 4:44 PM, Marty Backe said:

I posted a separate thread in the KingSong section. The board tilts-back all the time, like it's in an overcharge condition (it's not). It worked the night before, but not the next day.

KingSong wheels never fail, right?

I have never said they don’t fail. All electronics fail eventually. I have only said the quality is better, the mosfets tougher, and I have not seen an equal number of posts about KS dropping bodies to the ground. The reality is, I have actually never seen a single post about KS dropping anyone.. but I have seen at least 12 about Gotway dropping bodies like they’re hot. 

Im glad to hear that at least you weren’t thrown to the ground again Marty. For your sake, not KingSong’s. 

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27 minutes ago, GoinPostal said:

Yeah.. just don’t bonk a wall, or a rock, or look at it wrong, or those Gotway mosfets are toast. ?. 

Not true. I drove my ACM right into a tall (15cm) curb I didn't see on new year's eve at about 15km/h (ran it off), and nothing happened.

I guess all these sudden mosfet failures on not-too-big stresses are mosfets that are bad right from the start and blow on the first occasion (happened with the Tesla when it was new). Or, how many people reported such blowings after 1000km where everything went well?

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7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Not true. I drove my ACM right into a tall (15cm) curb I didn't see on new year's eve at about 15km/h (ran it off), and nothing happened.

I guess all these sudden mosfet failures on not-too-big stresses are mosfets that are bad right from the start and blow on the first occasion (happened with the Tesla when it was new). Or, how many people reported such blowings after 1000km where everything went well?

Is yours the ACM2?  It is beginning to look like Gotway MAY be making better wheels lately.  I saw my first Msuper V3 vid of blown mosfets while my MSuper was in shipping to my house.  Some Russian jumped his and when it landed.. POOF!

I thought wow.. ok.. don’t jump it. While training in my hallway, I lightly bonked the wall.. POOF! Three days later Ian from speedyfeet rode into some sand POOF! 

I sent my MSuper V3 back with about 1 mike on it.. and never looked back. 

I am Gotway intolerant. ?

I do hope for everyone’s sake that Gotway eventually takes quality seriously.  I will be first in line to buy a Gotway when their quality matches KingSong’s, Segways, and InMotion’s. 

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35 minutes ago, GoinPostal said:

Is yours the ACM2?

No, first generation 84V ACM from January 2017, even with slightly thinner motor cables than the ACM1 now.

Sounds like your experience fits into my explanation as well. Lack of buying quality controlled parts, but once the wheel works and so you know your parts must be good, I've heard only of mosfet blowings under very high stresses (where it still should not happen if wheels were designed correctly with better components, but it's totally expected for the mosfet they use).

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3 hours ago, GoinPostal said:

I have never said they don’t fail. All electronics fail eventually. I have only said the quality is better, the mosfets tougher, and I have not seen an equal number of posts about KS dropping bodies to the ground. The reality is, I have actually never seen a single post about KS dropping anyone.. but I have seen at least 12 about Gotway dropping bodies like they’re hot. 

Im glad to hear that at least you weren’t thrown to the ground again Marty. For your sake, not KingSong’s. 

I thought my joke was obvious.

BTW, you're not familiar with the current thread where @Scott Henley was face planted twice on his 14D? So now you've heard of one.

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21 hours ago, US69 said:

Personally isee IM more in the region of 9b.....they are just to big of a company to make „real performance“ wheels that would interest G and Ks owners....

Who ever has ridden a V8 in comparison to a 16S/Tesla knows what i mean.....

 

Jumping to conclusions about the V10. Please decelerate.

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On 4/2/2018 at 1:40 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

I guess all these sudden mosfet failures on not-too-big stresses are mosfets that are bad right from the start and blow on the first occasion (happened with the Tesla when it was new). Or, how many people reported such blowings after 1000km where everything went well?

2

@Shad0z had one that pretty much fits that description to a T (Tee?. Tea? Which one is it?)

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3 hours ago, Smoother said:

@Shad0z had one that pretty much fits that description to a T (Tee?. Tea? Which one is it?)

if you look at.my signature you can see an accurate descreption. Of which component failed :D

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WARNING, NEWBIE FIRST POST.  After recently buying a Segway Kickscooter and Ninebot Minipro, these EUCs kept popping up in related searches. In my mind, hooverboards, e-skateboards, and unis are for kids. But seeing all the related youtube vides with guys my age (Marty, I’m talking to you) having so much fun on the trails, hills, and around town made me do a lot of research and MAYBE and old guy like me CAN learn new tricks.

So in doing my research, I came upon the conclusion of most likely the KS16S or the ACM2 as well making this thread the perfect research tool and then some. I read though this entire thread and here’s what I came up with:

- There is a love/hate/comedic relationship with people on this message board, but bottom line, everyone loves EUCs and is pushing the passion for it.

- KS16S more reliable, less range, less speed

- ACM2 faster, GW brand (not necessarily this particular model) less reliable.

- everyone rides differently, some city commuters, some trail, some long range, some short, some have more endurance than others.

Okay, given what I’ve learned, I have to say given the same price point and looking at specs only, ACM2 wins out IF IT WEREN’T FOR RELIABILTY, which is a HUGE factor.

Here’s where the LOGIC in me poses a few questions that maybe you guys can answer.

IF I SPEED LIMITED THE ACM2 to the same speed as the KS16S, would it be just as reliable as the KS since overheating and cutouts wouldn’t come into play. Same logic as overclocking a computer system, so why not “underclock” the ACM2 to make it more reliable? I would just be getting a bigger battery 16S for the same price.

As I mentioned, I’m new here and new to EUCs, I live in Sunny So Cal and plan to ride on random bike paths, beach trails, and hills. Oh, and I probably did myself a disservice by “training” using a SwagRoller as it is two wheel 14” which (probably) has a way different feel than a real uni. In any case, I’m ready for the big leagues, what do you guys think?

Scot

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33 minutes ago, maltocs said:

WARNING, NEWBIE FIRST POST.  After recently buying a Segway Kickscooter and Ninebot Minipro, these EUCs kept popping up in related searches. In my mind, hooverboards, e-skateboards, and unis are for kids. But seeing all the related youtube vides with guys my age (Marty, I’m talking to you) having so much fun on the trails, hills, and around town made me do a lot of research and MAYBE and old guy like me CAN learn new tricks.

So in doing my research, I came upon the conclusion of most likely the KS16S or the ACM2 as well making this thread the perfect research tool and then some. I read though this entire thread and here’s what I came up with:

- There is a love/hate/comedic relationship with people on this message board, but bottom line, everyone loves EUCs and is pushing the passion for it.

- KS16S more reliable, less range, less speed

- ACM2 faster, GW brand (not necessarily this particular model) less reliable.

- everyone rides differently, some city commuters, some trail, some long range, some short, some have more endurance than others.

Okay, given what I’ve learned, I have to say given the same price point and looking at specs only, ACM2 wins out IF IT WEREN’T FOR RELIABILTY, which is a HUGE factor.

Here’s where the LOGIC in me poses a few questions that maybe you guys can answer.

IF I SPEED LIMITED THE ACM2 to the same speed as the KS16S, would it be just as reliable as the KS since overheating and cutouts wouldn’t come into play. Same logic as overclocking a computer system, so why not “underclock” the ACM2 to make it more reliable? I would just be getting a bigger battery 16S for the same price.

As I mentioned, I’m new here and new to EUCs, I live in Sunny So Cal and plan to ride on random bike paths, beach trails, and hills. Oh, and I probably did myself a disservice by “training” using a SwagRoller as it is two wheel 14” which (probably) has a way different feel than a real uni. In any case, I’m ready for the big leagues, what do you guys think?

Scot

I've always stated my belief that Gotway wheels can be safer that KingSong wheels (my opinion) when configured with a lower-speed tilt-back. Safer because of more powerful motors and reserve power that could potentially handle momentary surges in power better than lesser wheels.

The ACM has been a very reliable wheel in terms of 'random' cutouts. There have been issues with melting cables, etc. that only come into play when using the wheel in extreme conditions. If you're just riding the wheel (i.e., not attempting to go up steep hills for extended periods), all of our wheels are very reliable.

BTW, if you want to see some wheels in person, stop by Griffith Park this Sunday morning for our group ride. I'm pretty sure that I'll be riding my ACM2.

 

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50 minutes ago, maltocs said:

There is a love/hate/comedic relationship with people on this message board, but bottom line, everyone loves EUCs and is pushing the passion for it.

- KS16S more reliable, less range, less speed

- ACM2 faster, GW brand (not necessarily this particular model) less reliable.

- everyone rides differently, some city commuters, some trail, some long range, some short, some have more endurance than others.

You said it yourself perfectly...

I own/ed 4 KS and 4 GW....knowing how each of it is build, plus heraring all in the forum since 5500 posts, plus the experience and knowledge as mod from 2 FB groups for EUC..i honestly can not recommend a GW anymore -attention- for a newbie....

Not, when you dont know how to repair these things and have a good knowledge of the inside, and how these things work and for what typicaly crap quality you have to check pr for what you have to be prepared!

On an EUC it is not the question IF you will fall or have a fail ....it is just a question of time and probabilities that it WILL happen.

On a GW your chances for a fail and fall are higher...and thats not configurable :-)

 

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56 minutes ago, maltocs said:

WARNING, NEWBIE FIRST POST.

(...)

Scot

Hi there! Nice first post, and your conclusions are very correct.

Here's how I'd put it:

  • EUCs are very simple machines. Once they're up and running, they pretty much go without problems. Occasionally a board dies for some or for absolutely no discernible reason, that's about it.
    In regards to KS vs GW reliability: GW wheels apparently tend to have a board that can die right at the start, if you're unlucky with a low quality mosfet that just blows as soon as it gets the chance. Once that danger is over, I would say they are more or less as reliable as other wheels (boards).
  • The only real difference in reliability is, in my view/experience, steep and long hills. A KS is going to overheat there, a GW might too, or if you really push it, something can fry. It may be harder to fry a KS when really pushing it.
    If you look at the mountain rides Marty does, they're pretty substantial, and his Gotways didn't do anything but (at worst) overheat, so everything good. (Except that one where he really pushed it too far).
    So in effect, I don't think the differences in electronics (KS are undoubtedly nicer) translate to a difference in real life in 99% of cases. Unless you're a guy who expects the wheel to perform in any crazy situation you might put it, without a bit of common sense and awareness that all EUCs are still very basic, you can live with either.
  • The best insurance is still wrist guards + face-protecting helmet + knee guards (+ whatever else you feel like).
  • So essentially, speed + motor power + big battery (ACM2) vs. nice and safe(r) and sleek and thinner (16S).
    You can argue whether going slow with the ACM is safer (due to the bigger motor power reserve and battery current reserve) or the 16S is safer (due to safer construction). As said, I don't think the difference is too big, you need to think about what would happen in a crash with both wheels anyways. That's just due to how EUCs work in principle, anything wrong, you faceplant.

As always, buy the wheel that your gut tells you to. Which one is the one that tells your instinct "Buy me!!"? Get that.

Can't go wrong with either.

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47 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Hi there! Nice first post, and your conclusions are very correct.

Here's how I'd put it:

(i removed all these wise words from the quote to make it take up less space)

pretty much the same how i would put it

you explained as good as it can be

 

one thing to note is gw wheels are usually better sealed from the elements

water, dust etc

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