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ACM2 1300 Wh vs. KS16s for newbie?


beast@tanagra

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I really don't know what the issue is with the battery size.  840wh is plenty for me, I'm 150lbs.  My riding style is cruise and bursty.  I had this one ride where I rode for 3 hours and it only used 30% of my battery,  leaving me with 70%.  Remember that when you ride about 1 hour, your feet go numb.  I don't know how a few people keep pushing the 1300wh, 1600wh, 2400wh is thinking.  There are fast chargers and unless you are in the middle of nowhere and plan to bring your lunch on your ride, you can charge when you are eating at a restaurant.  

We did this on our last ride.  We rode for 15 miles, took us about 3 hours and we had multiple stops then we got hungry and stopped in a restaurant to charge.  This is the same thing you do when you go with an Electric Car, Tesla Motors makes.  They built a supercharging infra which is for the most part where you would most likely stop to get a bite to eat.  Their batteries can get you about 2-300miles of range and after about 3-4 hours of driving, you need to stop and use the bathroom and eat.  The 30 minutes it takes you to do that, the car charges 170 miles or more.  

I guess the battery is only an issue if you plan on riding in the middle of nowhere.

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28 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I had this one ride where I rode for 3 hours and it only used 30% of my battery,  leaving me with 70%.

That's not normal unless you go very slow or are very light (probably both applied to you).

28 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Remember that when you ride about 1 hour, your feet go numb.

No. And even if they do, step off for 2 minutes and you're good again.

28 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

There are fast chargers and unless you are in the middle of nowhere and plan to bring your lunch on your ride, you can charge when you are eating at a restaurant.

Charging takes time, fast charging too. Do you really want a 2-3 hour charge break on an 2-3 hour ride?

For example, my 1300Wh ACM has about 60km range with the current temperatures and wind state here. That means only 2 hours of pure riding time at 30! Ride one hour, charge one hour or two hours, ride one hour back - such a charge break would have to be forced, nobody would voluntarily do that every time.

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36 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's not normal unless you go very slow or are very light (probably both applied to you).

No. And even if they do, step off for 2 minutes and you're good again.

Charging takes time, fast charging too. Do you really want a 2-3 hour charge break on an 2-3 hour ride?

For example, my 1300Wh ACM has about 60km range with the current temperatures and wind state here. That means only 2 hours of pure riding time at 30! Ride one hour, charge one hour or two hours, ride one hour back - such a charge break would have to be forced, nobody would voluntarily do that every time.

60km per charge on the 1300wh battery seems low.  

For me, two minutes not enough to shake off the numbness.  

Not sure where you are riding that you can go 2 hours at 30kmph constant.  

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40 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

60km per charge on the 1300wh battery seems low.  

Well, it's about what I get with temps around 10°C, speedy riding (mostly around 30km/h), my winter tire (the profile may eat some percent of range), 80k rider, some wind and hills. Ok, maybe closer to 65km, but it was for the sake of example simplicity (with colder temps, the range can easily drop under 60).

You are Mr. Magic Range for some reason, but unfortunately that does not seem to generalize to nearly everyone else:efee47c9c8:

40 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Not sure where you are riding that you can go 2 hours at 30kmph constant.  

It's not 30 constantly, but close to it mostly. Bike paths (where you just occasionally cross a road or bridge), side roads between villages where nothing's going on, farm roads through fields and forests, ...

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27 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Well, it's about what I get with temps around 10°C, speedy riding (mostly around 30km/h), my winter tire (the profile may eat some percent of range), 80k rider, some wind and hills. Ok, maybe closer to 65km, but it was for the sake of example simplicity (with colder temps, the range can easily drop under 60).

You are Mr. Magic Range for some reason, but unfortunately that does not seem to generalize to nearly everyone else:efee47c9c8:

It's not 30 constantly, but close to it mostly. Bike paths (where you just occasionally cross a road or bridge), side roads between villages where nothing's going on, farm roads through fields and forests, ...

I see most people use it in the cities, so i guess you are an exception.  I ride in the city where there are bike paths, but also many lights.  I can't really ride to another city here and I wouldn't find that any fun.  When there are just stretches of nothing, you don't really fell like you are going all that fast.  But in the city, it is pretty fast.

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2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Get an ACM2. The magic of long range is unparalleled:efeeec645d: So the only question is 1300Wh or 1600Wh:efeebb3acc: I mean it.

I have a 1300Wh ACM1 and could easily, EASILY go through 2000Wh or even 2500Wh in a day. After 1000Wh you barely got started after a paltry 30 miles:efee8319ab:

The 16S is a wonderful, snappy, thinner, trolley-handled commuter wheel if that's what you want. But seriously, $1300 for 840Wh or 1300$ for 1300Wh on a more powerful wheel, I know which choice I'd make ($1600 for 1600Wh actually).

Keep in mind, the comparisons are usually 16S vs ACM, not ACM2. The ACM2 has harder ride modes and a stronger motor in comparison which maybe makes it (I guess) closer to 16S behavior.

Higher speed is not a problem, simply set some beeps and you won't go too fast. But you'll be surprised how quickly "25km/h (16mph) is plenty enough for me" becomes "25km/h is unbearably, mind-torturingly slow". The 35km/h of the 16S are fine as a max speed for a 16 incher, though, but not a single km/h less.

-

But it's a matter of what you instinctively prefer. "Trust your (initial) intuition, your gut feeling" is a great tip to choose the right wheel. 16S and ACM2 are both fantastic wheels, so it's a choice between good and better (battery size:efeebb3acc:).

@meepmeepmayer, a man after my own heart :cheers:

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3 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I love this forums..and especially Marty! :-)

I have to disagree....having owned several KS AND GW wheels for me the main problem with GW is there —honestly— absolutly bullshit quality! GW failures have nothing to do with Overspeed Conditions, i mean some people sure have as they are stupid and keep on pushing to the cutout! But thats not the main reason....the only thing that is good on a GW is there performance...the rest is, depending that we bet our life on this wheels, abolut outreagous cheap 4th world product quality....

 

@KingSong69 is always at the ready to put a damper on my enthusiasm for Gotway :D He keeps me in check ;)

You know, the vast majority of complaints against Gotway here and on Facebook is regarding cutouts and safety, so that's what I focus on here.

You know that I don't disagree with you regarding quality.

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2 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

I really don't know what the issue is with the battery size.  840wh is plenty for me, I'm 150lbs.  My riding style is cruise and bursty.  I had this one ride where I rode for 3 hours and it only used 30% of my battery,  leaving me with 70%.  Remember that when you ride about 1 hour, your feet go numb.  I don't know how a few people keep pushing the 1300wh, 1600wh, 2400wh is thinking.  There are fast chargers and unless you are in the middle of nowhere and plan to bring your lunch on your ride, you can charge when you are eating at a restaurant.  

We did this on our last ride.  We rode for 15 miles, took us about 3 hours and we had multiple stops then we got hungry and stopped in a restaurant to charge.  This is the same thing you do when you go with an Electric Car, Tesla Motors makes.  They built a supercharging infra which is for the most part where you would most likely stop to get a bite to eat.  Their batteries can get you about 2-300miles of range and after about 3-4 hours of driving, you need to stop and use the bathroom and eat.  The 30 minutes it takes you to do that, the car charges 170 miles or more.  

I guess the battery is only an issue if you plan on riding in the middle of nowhere.

What you write here shows that you are the outlier. Feet go numb after 10-miles??? 3-hours for a 15-mile ride???

Our last group ride was about 50-miles in ~4-hours.

Looks like your group rides are more like BS sessions rather than rides :laughbounce2:

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49 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I see most people use it in the cities, so i guess you are an exception.  I ride in the city where there are bike paths, but also many lights.  I can't really ride to another city here and I wouldn't find that any fun.  When there are just stretches of nothing, you don't really fell like you are going all that fast.  But in the city, it is pretty fast.

Most people ride in cities? Eddie, you make these sweeping generalizations that just aren't true. Around my area most people ride trails and such. It's a mix depending on where you live. 

I'm not the outlier and neither are you, we just live and ride in different areas.

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5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

What you write here shows that you are the outlier. Feet go numb after 10-miles??? 3-hours for a 15-mile ride???

Our last group ride was about 50-miles in ~4-hours.

Looks like your group rides are more like BS sessions rather than rides :laughbounce2:

Marty, I think we enjoy our rides and take it leisurely in the City.  We don't just ride full speed in a group.  What fun is that?  Also what is the point of riding in a group if you are not going to interact with each other.  10 miles in the City is different than just going 10 miles in the middle of no where.  I'm sure you understand the difference.  

I'm not used to standing for a living, so yes, my feet still go numb in about an hour.  

Don't judge our group rides and I won't judge your group rides.  

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5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Most people ride in cities? Eddie, you make these sweeping generalizations that just aren't true. Around my area most people ride trails and such. It's a mix depending on where you live. 

I'm not the outlier and neither are you, we just live and ride in different areas.

It is what I see, not generalizations.  Your group is tiny.   Just ask yourself where are these wheels the most popular.   Stop being so blind or arguing for the sake of arguing.  

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You know, I had actually gone to bed pleased that I hadn't started a KS vs. Gotway flamewar with a thread that could have easily gone that way. Now look at you.:facepalm: As long as it's all in good fun, I guess ;)

I have a feeling there will be a bit of buyer's remorse no matter what I get, because I'll want to experience what I'm missing on the other side. I'm just glad that you guys are helping me understand the differences.

30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

But it's a matter of what you instinctively prefer. "Trust your (initial) intuition, your gut feeling" is a great tip to choose the right wheel. 16S and ACM2 are both fantastic wheels, so it's a choice between good and better (battery size:efeebb3acc:).

So here's where I stand: my gut feeling is still saying KS16S. This is probably because it's hard for me to truly imagine riding any way other than how I rode my bicycle as a kid: slaloming around empty residential streets and sidewalks, probing for bike paths and shortcuts into other neighborhoods that kept me off busy streets, mapping out new paths to "distant" lands that in reality were not more than a few miles from my home, and stumbling on others' little dirt bike jumps and the like -- which I would incrementally start trying to tackle. In my imagination, an EUC will let me relive this fond memory on steroids. I find this kind of curvy mixed joy ride easier to imagine on the lighter, svelter 16S. (Eddie's style of group ride appeals to me just as much as Marty's!)

It was this video of a Muscovite navigating an obstacle course of mixed pedestrian, bike, and car pathways -- some in terrible condition -- that blew my mind and made see the KS16S as a superhero jack-of-all-trades wheel. I don't see myself riding that aggressively around cars or pedestrians, but seeing how fluidly he could cut a line, pick up the wheel, put it back down, get going again, without anyone screaming at him -- including the various authority figures he went by -- was really cool to me.

I think being minimally menacing to the locals is something I need to optimize for, and the KS does seem friendlier in that respect: a little less Bat Tumbler and a little more classic Tron Light Cycle. This will absolutely be the first EUC seen by just about everyone, and I don't want to get me or others in the crosshairs for blanket bans or aggressive enforcement. I'm selecting a helmet partly along this same criteria; I want to look both responsible and approachable.

I live right at the edge of dense suburban civilization, where the greater Phoenix area can't sprawl any farther because of regional parks and indian reservations. A one-minute ride in one direction can put me on a dirt trail in the direction of the regional mountain park and desert badlands six miles distant. A one-minute ride in the other direction puts me in a concrete ocean of contiguous retail blocks spanning nearly a square mile. If I want to just meander around residential neighborhoods, I certainly have plenty of options there, too. I don't need epic range to sample these different riding styles, and at least for the next six months the weather will be hot enough that I would probably crap out on a long ride long before my batteries would.

Come winter, all bets are off. If I decide I'm in the market for an endurance machine, I'll judge whether my legs can handle it and decide whether I want something seatable or not. I'll also have the added benefit of seeing what people think of the new wheels.

When it's time to place my order in a couple weeks, maybe I'll feel different? Who knows! Thanks again, everyone!

 

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58 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You know, the vast majority of complaints against Gotway here and on Facebook is regarding cutouts and safety, so that's what I focus on here.

You know that I don't disagree with you regarding quality.

What i find absolutely stunning is that we have totally different opinions(ok, on some things only) but still respect each other and keep it friendly!

Respect for that!

 

Regarding quality  am eager to know where the quality of a GW is, then...beside nice performance!

The brittle shells, holding together by screws that snap after one or at least two openings? The silicon hell used on the board? The to thin wires used? the 3rd party produced board, which is to small in size to use big and reliable enough Mosfets? The clumsy fans for pseudo cooling? Or was it the battery design on certain models which burned through? The nice wheel nut/shims and pedal hold design on all GW?

Aaah, wait, yes, respect! the axles has become bigger :-) I forgot.....

Nope, that isnt even a thing i would call „subjectiv“....and again, i own/owned several GW wheels and still drive and love them, so thats far from hate/bashing, but for a beginner/novice i just cant recommend them, their quality is crap, period!

Will be interesting to see you opening the 14d. Yes, your board is defect, like you said, every wheel/part can fail. But i really hope you will not have to much tears, when seeing how a quality wheel CAN look from the inside ;-)

 

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21 minutes ago, beast@tanagra said:

You know, I had actually gone to bed pleased that I hadn't started a KS vs. Gotway flamewar with a thread that could have easily gone that way. Now look at you.:facepalm: As long as it's all in good fun, I guess ;)

You absolutely dont have to worry...

Ok, perhaps sometimes it all got a bit out of topic or out of sight!

I can honestly only recommend to make your own picture! Here on the forum thereis evidence and arguments for all wheels, really!

You want the crazy peformance? You are more for reliability? search and make your own choice, look as much videos, threads, whatever!

Dont worry about some flames/sarcasm/ironism like between @Marty Backe and me or others ...we all have one common faible: One wheel/Euc driving :-)

And in the end, whatever choose you made, we ALL are here to help in case of problems :-)

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2 hours ago, beast@tanagra said:

I have a feeling there will be a bit of buyer's remorse no matter what I get, because I'll want to experience what I'm missing on the other side. I'm just glad that you guys are helping me understand the differences.

You might also want to consider switching up the order for the V10/V10F. I'm back from the first long ride ride with this Wheel, averaging 35-40kph of high speed cruising, some off-road trail riding, roads, pavements, testing on some really steep inclines, have clocked up around 50km so far. I suspect that it's going to eat up a lot of the current market-share for the KS16S & Tesla. It handles better, feels more powerful (than the KS16S), is the most comfortable Wheel that's ever been made, has the most bonus items like the under handle cut-off switch, brightest headlight, most LEDs, super powerful speakers, largest pedals, the list is quite extensive. With the $200 deposit system that both we & myinmotion.com are offering, there's a 10% discount on the ESRP before the official unveiling, which will place this model in the same price region as the other two Wheel.  

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2 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

You might also want to consider switching up the order for the V10/V10F. I'm back from the first long ride ride with this Wheel, averaging 35-40kph of high speed cruising, some off-road trail riding, roads, pavements, testing on some really steep inclines, have clocked up around 50km so far. I suspect that it's going to eat up a lot of the current market-share for the KS16S & Tesla. It handles better, feels more powerful, is the most comfortable Wheel that's ever been made, has the most bonus items like the under handle cut-off switch, brightest headlight, most LEDs, super powerful speakers, largest pedals, the list is quite extensive. With the $200 deposit system that both we & myinmotion.com are offering, there's a 10% discount on the ESRP before the official unveiling, which will place this model in the same price region as the other two Wheel.  

Geezus. That's pretty wild. How long a wait are we talking, though? I'm going nuts!

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6 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

You might also want to consider switching up the order for the V10/V10F. I'm back from the first long ride ride with this Wheel, averaging 35-40kph of high speed cruising, some off-road trail riding, roads, pavements, testing on some really steep inclines, have clocked up around 50km so far. I suspect that it's going to eat up a lot of the current market-share for the KS16S & Tesla. It handles better, feels more powerful, is the most comfortable Wheel that's ever been made, has the most bonus items like the under handle cut-off switch, brightest headlight, most LEDs, super powerful speakers, largest pedals, the list is quite extensive. With the $200 deposit system that both we & myinmotion.com are offering, there's a 10% discount on the ESRP before the official unveiling, which will place this model in the same price region as the other two Wheel.  

That's a pretty heavy endorsement.  So i'm take it that the V10 lives up to the hype that's they've been building?  If it feels more powerful, wonder when they finally come out with the specs will it have a motor north of 2000 watts.

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4 minutes ago, beast@tanagra said:

Geezus. That's pretty wild. How long a wait are we talking, though? I'm going nuts!

If the timetables are kept, the V10Fs should be getting shipped out of China near the official release date, this is only a week later from when your KS16Ss is expected in. 

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1 minute ago, Jason McNeil said:

If the timetables are kept, the V10Fs should be getting shipped out of China near the official release date, this is only a week later from when your KS16Ss is expected in. 

Well heck, then this is something I'll definitely do. With the deposit being refundable, I guess I'm not risking anything but extra delay. Do I specify 10 or 10F once we have official specs?

Side note, do we know anyone who wants to rent me a disused clunker wheel to learn on while I keep on waitin'? :)

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12 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

You might also want to consider switching up the order for the V10/V10F. I'm back from the first long ride ride with this Wheel, averaging 35-40kph of high speed cruising, some off-road trail riding, roads, pavements, testing on some really steep inclines, have clocked up around 50km so far. I suspect that it's going to eat up a lot of the current market-share for the KS16S & Tesla. It handles better, feels more powerful, is the most comfortable Wheel that's ever been made, has the most bonus items like the under handle cut-off switch, brightest headlight, most LEDs, super powerful speakers, largest pedals, the list is quite extensive. With the $200 deposit system that both we & myinmotion.com are offering, there's a 10% discount on the ESRP before the official unveiling, which will place this model in the same price region as the other two Wheel.  

Sure wish we could see some real-world riding videos. Maybe by summer we can get some objective stats and experiences about this wheel.

You're not actually saying that it outperforms the Tesla right? Just that it'll sell better than the Tesla?

What's the realistic range, or is that still a secret? ;)

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10 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

That's a pretty heavy endorsement.  So i'm take it that the V10 lives up to the hype that's they've been building?  If it feels more powerful, wonder when they finally come out with the specs will it have a motor north of 2000 watts.

The Motor is exaspected to have 1200Watt-1500Watts max....while i would exspect more 1200Watt.

Pretty hard to operate a more powerfull motor with 680wh....

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21 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

You might also want to consider switching up the order for the V10/V10F. I'm back from the first long ride ride with this Wheel, averaging 35-40kph of high speed cruising, some off-road trail riding, roads, pavements, testing on some really steep inclines, have clocked up around 50km so far. I suspect that it's going to eat up a lot of the current market-share for the KS16S & Tesla. It handles better, feels more powerful, is the most comfortable Wheel that's ever been made, has the most bonus items like the under handle cut-off switch, brightest headlight, most LEDs, super powerful speakers, largest pedals, the list is quite extensive. With the $200 deposit system that both we & myinmotion.com are offering, there's a 10% discount on the ESRP before the official unveiling, which will place this model in the same price region as the other two Wheel.  

That is a pretty mighty endorsement. 

" It handles better, feels more powerful, is the most comfortable Wheel that's ever been made.."

:blink: Wow.

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1 minute ago, KingSong69 said:

The Motor is exaspected to have 1200Watt-1500Watts max....while i would exspect more 1200Watt.

Pretty hard to operate a more powerfull motor with 680wh....

But how does it feel more powerful than the Tesla wheel which has a 2000 watt motor?  both 16" wheels...

I totally disregarded this wheel and was sure I was going to get the 18L, but now I'm not so sure.  I might end up getting this one.  We have a group demo in NYC two weeks from now.  

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