Would it Influence Your Decision to Buy a Gotway Wheel, if the Max Speed in the Firmware Were Limited to 30MPH/48KPH?

[Jason McNeil]

After witnessing a couple hairy GW cutout videos of people pushing through the triple alarm level, I'm discussing with GW about the possibility of setting a hard limit in the firmware that cannot be disabled, at 30MPH. Taking a poll to assess what, if any, factor it would have on the purchasing preferences it would have for people on the forum.

[Rehab1]

2 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Poll

Great poll. You already knew my answer.

[eddiemoy]

If they were safer, I would buy their wheels.  They need to improve the safety.  When I ride my Msuper, it is always in the back of my mind that it will cut out.  I don't have such thoughts on the KS18S.  I go as fast as the unit allows based on safety margins.  

One day someone will die from an accident and it will put unwanted scrutiny on EUC's.  Then comes regulation that will affect us all.  

 

[houseofjob]

My 2 Cents:

It's more about the buffer threshold between cutout max and software restricted max than a solid number. That and force propaganda educating the buyer, which seems lacking sometimes for the newbie buyers.

And once upon a time, anything above 20MPH was considered dangerous and risky, albeit the motors were less powerful back then.

 

Plus, I'd be super scared to do the max on a Gotway with a hard cap tiltback you couldn't turn off, considering the issues Gotway tiltback implementation has had (set at high speeds).

None of the NYC Gotway riders here use tiltback because of this past history, and one of the new guys here, riding a Tesla, had a high speed cutout (injuring only his pinky thank God), because he relied on Gotway tiltback, set at I think at 48kph, but the tiltback did not trigger at 48kph, and he pushed way past max, not having heard the beeps.

[NECway]

53 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

After witnessing a couple hairy GW cutout videos of people pushing through the triple alarm level, I'm discussing with GW about the possibility of setting a hard limit in the firmware that cannot be disabled, at 30MPH. Taking a poll to assess what, if any, factor it would have on the purchasing preferences it would have for people on the forum.

I think a limit at 30MPH is the wrong number, it should be 50Km/h.

[Jason McNeil]

13 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

relied on Gotway tiltback, set at I think at 48kph, but the tiltback did not trigger at 48kph, and he pushed way past max, not having heard the beeps.

Yeah, I agree the implementation would most certainly need to be the standard combination of both power/voltage-drop & max speed. If he selected the 48kph, it's just one small selection away from disablement, do you think he might have chosen this by mistake?  

7 minutes ago, NECway said:

I think a limit at 30MPH is the wrong number, it should be 50Km/h.

Maybe, to be on level pegging with the fastest KS. 

[houseofjob]

1 minute ago, Jason McNeil said:

If he selected the 48kph, it's just one small selection away from disablement, do you think he might have chosen this by mistake? 

I could be wrong, but I think that's what he said he had set it to (I'll ask again). Maybe because he's still a relative newbie(?) (although rides very well despite the fact, coming from being eboards). To be fair, also, he's a need for speed kinda guy.

If Gotway tiltback could be reliable, that would be awesome! But old memories die hard 

[WARPed1701D]

I fully support the idea of restricting the rider such that a large torque reserve remains in the wheel in the event of unexpected bumps requiring extra power to remain upright. If manufacturers want to make 35mph wheels they should be fitted with 3 to 4000W motors to ensure such a reserve is maintained.

As already mentioned all manufacturers really need to look beyond just speed as a sensor input and take into account battery level, max amp draw allowed, and even current/historical riding data such as current draw needed to maintain speed, ride style (lot of harsh accelerations or a more smooth rider), terrain (a wheel ridden in San Francisco would react differently to one normally ridden in Florida), current cell temperature and cooling/heating trend. Most importantly tiltback needs to be consistent at any speed taking the same amount of time to activate regardless of how you are riding. It should determine acceleration and time until reaching max tiltback speed at those acceleration rates so it is initiated at different speeds. At hard acceleration it may start to engage at 15mph. Gentle acceleration should engage it at a higher speed. The important point is a consistent feel so you never blast up to max speed and then get dumped backwards by sudden and extreme tiltback that happens in less than a second.

[Marty Backe]

I'm conflicted about answering this poll. I essentially never ride above 25-mph but I'd still prefer freedom of choice.

What I don't get is if safety is important enough to someone that they will now consider a Gotway wheel if it has a 30-mph limit, why don't they simply enable the tilt-back that's already there.

People can set the Gotway tilt-back to 20-mph and have a super safe wheel. Nobody is stopping them. But for the daredevils out there, let them have their fun.

 

So I'd like to answer No because I don't like this proposed 'feature', yet I'm certainly not going to buy another wheel if you're successful.

I think I'll abstain.

[who_the]

I'm with Marty: Conflicted.

I am against hard limits. But riders pushing their wheels — and their own capabilities — beyond the boundary of safety is dangerous; not just for the individual, but for the entire genre of personal electric vehicles.

I rarely exceed 30 mph. But I ride 25-30 all the time. I'd hate to be endangered by an inelegant tiltback, especially when my wheel may still have more left in it.

Audi limits their vehicles, Porsche does not. Room in the marketplace for both. 911s are fabulous cars, but can be widowmakers in the wrong hands.

[diegoxxx]

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Moje 2 centy:

Chodzi raczej o próg bufora między maksymalnym wycięciem a maksymalnym ograniczeniem oprogramowania niż liczba całkowita. To i wymusza propagandę  edukacyjną dla kupującego, która czasami wydaje się nie mieć początkujących nabywców.

I raz na jakiś czas ponad 20MPH uważano za niebezpieczne i ryzykowne, choć wtedy silniki były mniej potężne.

 

Poza tym byłbym bardzo przerażony, gdyby zrobił maxa na Gotway z tiltbackiem, którego nie można wyłączyć, biorąc pod uwagę problemy, jakie miała implementacja tiltbacka w Gotvie (ustawiona przy wysokich prędkościach).

Żaden z jeźdźców z NYC Gotway nie używa tutaj tiltbacku z powodu tej przeszłości, a jeden z nowych facetów, jadący na Tesli, miał wysoką prędkość wycinania (raniąc tylko jego pinky dzięki Bogu), ponieważ polegał na tiltbacku Gotway, ustawionym na Wydaje mi się, że przy 48 km / h, tiltback nie wyskoczył z prędkością 48 km / h, i przejechał daleko poza zasięgiem maksimum, nie słysząc sygnałów dźwiękowych.

you are talking about Tesla?? and the tiltback problem 48km / h

[Esash]

I think it would be a good business move by Gotway (50km/h limit).

There's a market for 34-35 mph, but it dwindles with every high speed tumble.

Gotway already has a reputation for disregarding safety. Maybe save the 35 mph top speed for the next generation of wheels that can actually go 40 mph.

 

 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm conflicted about answering this poll. I essentially never ride above 25-mph but I'd still prefer freedom of choice.

What I don't get is if safety is important enough to someone that they will now consider a Gotway wheel if it has a 30-mph limit, why don't they simply enable the tilt-back that's already there.

People can set the Gotway tilt-back to 20-mph and have a super safe wheel. Nobody is stopping them. But for the daredevils out there, let them have their fun.

 

So I'd like to answer No because I don't like this proposed 'feature', yet I'm certainly not going to buy another wheel if you're successful.

I think I'll abstain.

 

1 hour ago, who_the said:

I'm with Marty: Conflicted.

I am against hard limits. But riders pushing their wheels — and their own capabilities — beyond the boundary of safety is dangerous; not just for the individual, but for the entire genre of personal electric vehicles.

I rarely exceed 30 mph. But I ride 25-30 all the time. I'd hate to be endangered by an inelegant tiltback, especially when my wheel may still have more left in it.

Audi limits their vehicles, Porsche does not. Room in the marketplace for both. 911s are fabulous cars, but can be widowmakers in the wrong hands.

 

Knowing a little about these two crash-test-dummies, i understand their conflict.

So let's put the question into some more mainstream terms... Would you buy a car that was limited to a top speed of 60mph (100km/h)?

[Pasi]

21 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

 

 

Knowing a little about these two crash-test-dummies, i understand their conflict.

So let's put the question into some more mainstream terms... Would you buy a car that was limited to a top speed of 60mph (100km/h)?

Here max.speed limit for car is 120kmh. Car limited 160kmh, I would buy.

Here EUC max.speed limit is 25kmh. EUC limited 45 kmh, I would buy.

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

So let's put the question into some more mainstream terms... Would you buy a car that was limited to a top speed of 60mph (100km/h)?

Yes if the car manufacturer had a history of their steering wheels coming off at 65mph (104 km/h).

[Adel]

10 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

After witnessing a couple hairy GW cutout videos of people pushing through the triple alarm level, I'm discussing with GW about the possibility of setting a hard limit in the firmware that cannot be disabled, at 30MPH. Taking a poll to assess what, if any, factor it would have on the purchasing preferences it would have for people on the forum.

@Jason McNeil, I think maybe an implementation in the control firmware where it becomes progressively harder to accelerate the wheel from 25mph to 30mph.

This way there is gradual feedback to the rider versus a sudden drop off threshold.

[FreeRide]

10 hours ago, NECway said:

I think a limit at 30MPH is the wrong number, it should be 50Km/h.

I think you meant 50km/h. 

[FreeRide]

I think things could be improved, and i'm not against the limit per say.  Obviously the tiltback would need to be flawless, and other huge safety improvements could be done in software both firmware, and the app.  High torque requires better batteries, why do they still use just average cells instead of high current ones? 

These people seem very poor at software, and software is the key.

If they are going to make any change they need MORE rigerous testing. At least now the wheels behavior are pretty well understood and that has a safety aspect to it. If the behaviour changes then it all has to be learned again to get trust.  The Tesla seems to have a couple safety quirks, i hope they are working on those and not trying to use the speed limit as a bandaid that hides the issues. 

[Stan Onymous]

8 hours ago, who_the said:

Audi limits their vehicles, Porsche does not. Room in the marketplace for both. 911s are fabulous cars, but can be widowmakers in the wrong hands.

A little context is necessary for the Audi Porsche comparison. In the 80's Audi had a little problem with stuck accelerator pedals. Back then their cars were capable of 135 mph. Now Audi can go nearer to 200mph and to assuage the nanny EU regulators after the scandal that almost ruined the company,(yes Audi almost went out of business for quality concerns. My, my, how times change) they limit the speed to limit their liability should this same mistake happen again . The limiter is a result of this safety concerns from their past.

So, if you are using this as a comparison, it would only be right to use a limiter on the Gotways because of the similar type of past failures. You can always buy an Audi from a styling company like Mayback who will style it to their own liking which includes full speed. That will probably happen with Gotway firmware or the apps used to control that functionality. For the newbie, it will be safer, and for the enthusiastic rider, they will be able to customize their eventual hospitalizations.

[Jason McNeil]

9 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

What I don't get is if safety is important enough to someone that they will now consider a Gotway wheel if it has a 30-mph limit, why don't they simply enable the tilt-back that's already there.

This is because the consequences of making a split-second mistake can be so profound & life-altering. Even for yourself, who is the very model for prudence & exercising due-care  had an incident where your helmet blocked the noise of the triple beep. At that moment, the probability of falling off the torque cliff was perilously grave—think of us forum members who would have been bereft of your insights & humour.

Consider the personal pain & suffering of high-speed related accidents: in the case of @Rehab1, a [now] comparatively low-speed 20MPH crash resulted in major surgery, loss of income during convalescence & a whopping $75k medical bill. I'm certain that many serious injuries do not  get reported. As some others have pointed out, all it takes is for one highly-publicized high speed cut-outs to go viral (e.g. witness the kamikaze chap on the highway), so that Wheeling, instead of being the transportation solution to the future, will become stigmatized, with ensuing draconian legislation, just as we witnessed the association between Hoverboards & incendiary domestic scenes a few years ago. 

The immediate objective is not to Nanny-proof the Wheel, but to do everything that's reasonably possible to reduce the probability of Operator error in a momentary lapse of concentration, thus impairing his future.

One of the problems of the current high-performance class Wheels, is that they bestow a false sense of invulnerability. I have to admit to being personally guilty of this, 'Yes', we think to ourselves, 'Wheeling can be dangerous & others have suffered misfortune, but I'm endowed exceptionally unique skills, so that this won't happen to me!'

Here is a clip of a local Miami Rider (we've never met in person) in the moment right before his crash, prompting me to try to do something about preventing this scenario. 

 

[novazeus]

5 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

This is because the consequences of making a split-second mistake can be so profound & life-altering. Even for yourself, who is the very model for prudence & exercising due-care  had an incident where your helmet blocked the noise of the triple beep. At that moment, the probability of falling off the torque cliff was perilously grave—think of us forum members who would have been bereft of your insights & humour.

Consider the personal pain & suffering of high-speed related accidents: in the case of @Rehab1, a [now] comparatively low-speed 20MPH crash resulted in major surgery, loss of income during convalescence & a whopping $75k medical bill. I'm certain that many serious injuries do not  get reported. As some others have pointed out, all it takes is for one highly-publicized high speed cut-outs to go viral (e.g. witness the kamikaze chap on the highway), so that Wheeling, instead of being the transportation solution to the future, will become stigmatized, with ensuing draconian legislation, just as we witnessed the association between Hoverboards & incendiary domestic scenes a few years ago. 

The immediate objective is not to Nanny-proof the Wheel, but to do everything that's reasonably possible to reduce the probability of Operator error, in a momentary lapse of concentration, thus impairing his future.

One of the problems of the current high-performance class Wheels, is that they bestow a false sense of invulnerability. I have to admit to being personally guilty of this, 'Yes', we think to ourselves, 'Wheeling can be dangerous & others have suffered misfortune, but I'm endowed exceptional unique skills, so that this won't happen to me!'

 

exactly. whether u realize it or not, with this relatively new activity, it will only take a few riders that think “i know what i’m doing and it will never happen to me” to ruin this for everybody. i’m all for freedom to kill yourself, just do it on a closed circuit or off road, not around innocent bystanders, not on public streets or sidewalks or trails like i see waay too many videos depicting this. once these videos and statements are put on the web, there’s no pulling them back and if something happens, trust me, plaintiffs attorney will be using it against u to deny insurance claims and possibly criminal prosecution.

please don’t take this the wrong way, but my opinion, i repeat, my opinion is that the mentality of many riders is of a “show off” nature. men are usually more inclined that way, also in nature. with euc’s, and many, many other things, that is a dangerous combination. one euc rider might go at his own pace, add one or two more riders, and then it becomes a race. same with cars, motorcycles, skates, bicycles etc etc, it’s our dna. 

look, i think these are nifty little tools for me to traverse the distances around the ranch. do i think i look “cool” riding one, ha ha, no. i wear coveralls and a long beard in public, so i’m not really concerned what the public thinks about my appearance, but i gotta admit, i would be embarrassed riding one of these in public. i realize my personality is very different from most people, but i don’t want any additional attention. trust me, i have a boat load of haters everywhere i go. now with Bob by my side, he seems to offset it. u can imagine me out at dinner with an attractive girl 35 to 40 years younger than me. 

[Rehab1]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Here is a clip of a local Miami Rider (we've never met in person) in the moment right before his crash, prompting me to try to do something about preventing this scenario. 

Thanks for sharing!! I’m curious how many members watching the riders in the video as they weaved in and out of traffic and dodged pedestrians at high speeds were responding “What Idiots”! Those of us with that impression will have a less likely chance of ever ending up in a hospital. 

[eddiemoy]

5 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

This is because the consequences of making a split-second mistake can be so profound & life-altering. Even for yourself, who is the very model for prudence & exercising due-care  had an incident where your helmet blocked the noise of the triple beep. At that moment, the probability of falling off the torque cliff was perilously grave—think of us forum members who would have been bereft of your insights & humour.

Consider the personal pain & suffering of high-speed related accidents: in the case of @Rehab1, a [now] comparatively low-speed 20MPH crash resulted in major surgery, loss of income during convalescence & a whopping $75k medical bill. I'm certain that many serious injuries do not  get reported. As some others have pointed out, all it takes is for one highly-publicized high speed cut-outs to go viral (e.g. witness the kamikaze chap on the highway), so that Wheeling, instead of being the transportation solution to the future, will become stigmatized, with ensuing draconian legislation, just as we witnessed the association between Hoverboards & incendiary domestic scenes a few years ago. 

The immediate objective is not to Nanny-proof the Wheel, but to do everything that's reasonably possible to reduce the probability of Operator error in a momentary lapse of concentration, thus impairing his future.

One of the problems of the current high-performance class Wheels, is that they bestow a false sense of invulnerability. I have to admit to being personally guilty of this, 'Yes', we think to ourselves, 'Wheeling can be dangerous & others have suffered misfortune, but I'm endowed exceptionally unique skills, so that this won't happen to me!'

Here is a clip of a local Miami Rider (we've never met in person) in the moment right before his crash, prompting me to try to do something about preventing this scenario. 

 

i saw this guy when he first got his gotway tesla and did his speed test.  crazy how he was had the final alarm beeping away and he thinks the gear he had on will protect him in a 30+ mph crash.  i like the idea of trying to make videos to further the adoption of euc's but i think the riding on the side walk and weaving around pedestrians could be viewed as menacing...  again ruining it for the rest of us when they start cracking down on these due to some people appearing to be menacing to the public on their electric vehicles.

hope he recovers and to respect the speed and how dangerous it really is at those speeds.

[Smoother]

17 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

I fully support the idea of restricting the rider such that a large torque reserve remains in the wheel in the event of unexpected bumps requiring extra power to remain upright. If manufacturers want to make 35mph wheels they should be fitted with 3 to 4000W motors to ensure such a reserve is maintained.

As already mentioned all manufacturers really need to look beyond just speed as a sensor input and take into account battery level, max amp draw allowed, and even current/historical riding data such as current draw needed to maintain speed, ride style (lot of harsh accelerations or a more smooth rider), terrain (a wheel ridden in San Francisco would react differently to one normally ridden in Florida), current cell temperature and cooling/heating trend. Most importantly tiltback needs to be consistent at any speed taking the same amount of time to activate regardless of how you are riding. It should determine acceleration and time until reaching max tiltback speed at those acceleration rates so it is initiated at different speeds. At hard acceleration it may start to engage at 15mph. Gentle acceleration should engage it at a higher speed. The important point is a consistent feel so you never blast up to max speed and then get dumped backwards by sudden and extreme tiltback that happens in less than a second.

I was going to write something like this but now I don't have to. 

Remember folks, Jason said " gentle tilt-back warning " not "thrown off by tilt back".  I still haven't had the guts to see if the full speed 16s tilt back is gentle, or body tossing like it is on my 14c.  So I see this less about Gotway speed, and more about quality tilt back, across all manufacturers, that you can ride up to at any speed, any battery charge level, any gradient, any bump, and not live in fear of being thrown down the road by tilt back.  If Gotway had a tilt back like that, then people could set it above their third beep and below cut off and be reassured that if they miss the beeps, they will be kept safe by a smooth, progressive tilt back. If that was the case for King Song or Gotway, I'm not even sure the 30mph max would be necessary, as this quality tilt back could be set at any reasonable speed but could not be turned off.  That way the safety is there, and the speed is there for those that want it.

[FreeRide]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

I was going to write something like this but now I don't have to. 

Remember folks, Jason said " gentle tilt-back warning " not "thrown off by tilt back".  I still haven't had the guts to see if the full speed 16s tilt back is gentle, or body tossing like it is on my 14c.  So I see this less about Gotway speed, and more about quality tilt back, across all manufacturers, that you can ride up to at any speed, any battery charge level, any gradient, any bump, and not live in fear of being thrown down the road by tilt back.  If Gotway had a tilt back like that, then people could set it above their third beep and below cut off and be reassured that if they miss the beeps, they will be kept safe by a smooth, progressive tilt back. If that was the case for King Song or Gotway, I'm not even sure the 30mph max would be necessary, as this quality tilt back could be set at any reasonable speed but could not be turned off.  That way the safety is there, and the speed is there for those that want it.

It does not matter so much as what Jason said though, it only matters what Gotway can deliver.  If they have not delivered it yet, there is no reason to believe they can until it happens.  There are a lot of questionable areas of safety and they start with the battery, bms, and software.  All those have to work and be the right design matched to a specific motor.  People who don't work in product development probably see the limit as a 2 minute change, but it isn't.  I suspect Jason thinks he can have this change quickly and it will be good, when in reality it is not a quick change if it is to be done right, and not done just to hide other issues.