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Smoother

KS16 2.5" (tire) modification. My experiences

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3 hours ago, Smoother said:

The lowest pressure was 26psi, not 20, and it was fine, just a little wobbly in bumpy turns due to being on the softer side of the range, but bumpy turns are always a bit iffy at any pressure.  Also, I don't jump up or down curbs so i'm not a candidate for snake bites, generally.

Trust me. I worked for the largest independent tire retailer in the US for a few years.  Examining dozens of customer's tires every day, I know a bit more about tires than the average Joe. 

I have a "correct pressure" test.  At a low speed, I bounce up and down on the pedals a few times.  The amount of squish and rebound I get, tells me which side of ideal, I am.  It's a little more vague on this tire because of the stiff sidewalls.  That, and the unusual handling I experienced, is why I'm experimenting.

Also, just FYI. When quoting a post, take the time to remove the unnecessary parts to your response; in this case, all the photographs, and 60% of the text.  It just makes things neater.   See how I only quoted the part of your post I was replying too? ;)

Well done :thumbup:

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19 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Well done :thumbup:

:confused1:

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39 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Well done :thumbup:

marty?

. . . Context. Is the word :D

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Haha. But now Marty is even a moderator, so what can we do if even they ignore the rules and basic forum decency?:efee8319ab:

@Smoother Nice ride pictures. Why is it so bright and non-cloudy/foggy/dark/rainy/disgusting? Is there a strong spotlight nearby that creates these shadows? I can't follow... (just envious of your weather)

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1 hour ago, Smoother said:

:confused1:

Just having some fun. I was showing how I minimize the content that isn't pertinent to my response to your. Maybe I'm being to subtle :facepalm:

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Just having some fun. I was showing how I minimize the content that isn't pertinent to my response to your. Maybe I'm being to subtle :facepalm:

So how does this minimize process work? I sort of got it, except, because the whole post was still there it didn't clear up the clutter on the thread much IMHO.

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1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

 

@Smoother Nice ride pictures. Why is it so bright and non-cloudy/foggy/dark/rainy/disgusting? Is there a strong spotlight nearby that creates these shadows? I can't follow... (just envious of your weather)

 

It was a good weekend, we got lucky.  Most winter weekends we only get one acceptable riding day. Sometimes none. 

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7 minutes ago, Smoother said:

So how does this minimize process work? I sort of got it, except, because the whole post was still there it didn't clear up the clutter on the thread much IMHO.

Well, if most of the post is grayed out and the part that I'm responding to is BOLD, it's pretty easy to see what I'm responding to. Yet if someone wants to see the broader context of the discussion they still have access to the entire post (minus the pictures usually).

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Nice work @Smoother!

 

On ‎20‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 11:53 PM, IPS Malta said:

the pressure of 35psi is very normal on a 2.5". you should adjust the pressure to the weight (which is why you have a range) in most cases our weight is more than what could be ridden on the tires so most of the time we need to aim to higher pressures mentioned. p=F/A ... A is increased so p needs to be less. the IPS wheels (LHOTZ to Zero) I remeber they had a huge difference and I was kind of afraid reaching high pressure on the Zero thinking it might blow up which it never did and I think I was on 45+ psi. As being tubeless the walls are more rigid so the tube needs less pressure as it only needs to oppose the force down while a tube one will need more pressure to sustain the walls too (I might be wrong on the last as I am no expert but learning on tire technology).

Interesting... I run my 2.5" at 48psi (probably nearer 45 after removing the valve extender). 

I can't imagine how hard it would be to turn with pressure nearer 30psi.

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3 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Nice work @Smoother!

 

Interesting... I run my 2.5" at 48psi (probably nearer 45 after removing the valve extender). 

I can't imagine how hard it would be to turn with pressure nearer 30psi.

Thanks. All Fat jokes aside, how much do you weigh?  I'm 78/9 Kg and I'm guessing your a "bit" more than that :whistling: .  A tire not supporting a rider will be properly inflated at about 3psi (guess) so somewhere between that pressure and your pressure is my pressure.

To answer your question, even at 26psi it was not difficult to turn (but, remember, it has a stiff sidewall).  I can also ride it at 40-45 psi but it becomes a bit lively, and would probably get air over a pea-sized rock.  I still haven't decided on the right pressure for me; for every gain, I get a loss, or to use an old English phrase... "what I gain on the swings, I lose on the roundabout"

Edited by Smoother

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since you know so much about tires  @Smoother  what psi would you reccomend i put in my kenda ks16 tire. i want it to be pretty low but still avoid snake bites. and i weigh about 85 kg

and i want a low psi but still a sweetspot.. so what psi range from _ to _ psi would you reccomend? :) 

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6 hours ago, Shad0z said:

so what psi range from _ to _ psi would you reccomend? :) 

I know about car tires but since you weigh a little more than me and I'm happy with a mid 40psi with a stock 16" tire, I'd say anywhere around there would be fine.  Jump up and down while going slow.  You will fell if it's too soft, or too hard.  A certain amount of give is good.  Also, there's the pebble test.  Run over a roundish pebble slightly off center, if it shoots out and makes a ping sound followed by a ringing sound from your tire like you've just hit it with a stick, your pressure is too high.

Edited by Smoother
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2 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I know about car tires but since you weigh a little more than me and I'm happy with a mid 40psi with a stock 16" tire, I'd say anywhere around there would be fine.  Jump up and down while going slow.  You will fell if it's too soft, or too hard.  A certain amount of give is good.  Also, there's the pebble test.  Run over a roundish pebble slightly off center, if it shoots out and makes a ping sound followed by a ringing sound from your tire like you've just hit it with a stick, your pressure is too high.

thabks for all the usefull info ;) i will just it out

and at what psi do you think it would blow up?

(just curious. i have a powerfull compressor so a little click fills a lot of air in it almost feels scary pumping it up so i want to be calmed in some way) :D

Edited by Shad0z

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2 hours ago, Shad0z said:

thabks for all the usefull info ;) i will just it out

and at what psi do you think it would blow up?

(just curious. i have a powerfull compressor so a little click fills a lot of air in it almost feels scary pumping it up so i want to be calmed in some way) :D

These tires don't hold much volume of air, so a high volume compressor is not a good idea unless the max pressure is limited to 70psi or less. An exploding bicycle tire can cause injuries and an exploding car/truck tire can kill.  The chain I worked for had big steel cages where ALL tire filling took place.  Nationwide we probably inflated 10,000 tires a day.  If one in 10,000 tires, explodes when filled, that's one corporation-wide tire explosion per day (just an example). No more tire questions.:angry: :D

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8 hours ago, Smoother said:

Thanks. All Fat jokes aside, how much do you weigh?  I'm 78/9 Kg and I'm guessing your a "bit" more than that :whistling: .  A tire not supporting a rider will be properly inflated at about 3psi (guess) so somewhere between that pressure and your pressure is my pressure.

To answer your question, even at 26psi it was not difficult to turn (but, remember, it has a stiff sidewall).  I can also ride it at 40-45 psi but it becomes a bit lively, and would probably get air over a pea-sized rock.  I still haven't decided on the right pressure for me; for every gain, I get a loss, or to use an old English phrase... "what I gain on the swings, I lose on the roundabout"

Yes, the stiffer (tubeless) tyres change things up a little...

With a riding weight of ~250lb (including a packed lunch), on a 16" x 2.5" tyre, 45-50 psi works well. 

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1 minute ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

(including a packed lunch)

Don't try and blame it on the packed lunch.  You'll be quoting unusually thick socks next. :D

Maybe, sometime in the future, I'll try and get a tubed 2.5" tire for the lightness, to reduce the gyroscopic precession' I didn't know this one was tubeless when I ordered it.  Unfortunately, I didn't think to weigh them both when they were loose.

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1 hour ago, Smoother said:

Don't try and blame it on the packed lunch.  You'll be quoting unusually thick socks next. :D

Actually... My socks are quite thick, so I think they will definitely be a factor! 

But you are right about the lunch... I weighed myself holding it, and then again without (after finishing it) and the numbers were the same... Go figure!

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8 hours ago, Smoother said:

These tires don't hold much volume of air, so a high volume compressor is not a good idea unless the max pressure is limited to 70psi or less. An exploding bicycle tire can cause injuries and an exploding car/truck tire can kill.  The chain I worked for had big steel cages where ALL tire filling took place.  Nationwide we probably inflated 10,000 tires a day.  If one in 10,000 tires, explodes when filled, that's one corporation-wide tire explosion per day (just an example). No more tire questions.:angry: :D

im extremely sorry.. But how do you istall the tubeless tire on euc that had a tire with tube? Would it be possible on my tesla?  (no more questions sorry)

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44 minutes ago, Shad0z said:

im extremely sorry.. But how do you istall the tubeless tire on euc that had a tire with tube? Would it be possible on my tesla?  (no more questions sorry)

I just put the tube back in it with lots of talcum powder to reduce friction between the two.  Only time will tell if this causes a problem. So far so good. Some wheels where the motor is much smaller than the rim of the wheel (KS18, Monster) there's plenty of room to put a traditional tubeless valve in, but not on my wheels or your wheel.  The motor restricts valve installation, and there is always the issue of if the valve will seal in a hole that was not designed for it.  Conventional wheels like those on cars, have a precisely machined hole that accepts the tubeless valve exactly. Not so on our tubed wheels.

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47 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I just put the tube back in it with lots of talcum powder to reduce friction between the two.  Only time will tell if this causes a problem. So far so good. Some wheels where the motor is much smaller than the rim of the wheel (KS18, Monster) there's plenty of room to put a traditional tubeless valve in, but not on my wheels or your wheel.  The motor restricts valve installation, and there is always the issue of if the valve will seal in a hole that was not designed for it.  Conventional wheels like those on cars, have a precisely machined hole that accepts the tubeless valve exactly. Not so on our tubed wheels.

thanks for all the information.. And now.. No more tire questions ;) 

Edited by Shad0z

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Posted (edited)

Very well documented, Smoother! I meant to write on my process last fall, but never got around to it.

One thing to note, when lifting the shell up to the 4 remaining bolt holes, mine wasn’t completely straight anymore. Took a while to find out why I felt the wheel was pulling left when my feet got tired! When first doing this, I recommend fitting the lifted shell on the motor without a tire, and making sure the shell sits exactly vertical.

  Tire patterns

I learned that the forceful uprighting during speedy cornering is HUGELY affected by the profile and tread pattern of the tire. The profile on your tire looks quite flat, so I’m sure you have it a lot worse than with a tire that has a pronounced center ridge like the CST on Msuper v3. I believe the bouncyness is mostly affected by the inherent stiffness of the rubber used.

CST.jpg.69e356d199e08d6bc6b03aa0184cdd47.jpg5146.png.695b821e24137dd03adfb566f1e34bad.pngKenda.jpg.3009f40ce51f9dc7ac5c713406f494bc.jpg

The CST handles closer to a 2.125” tire, but it is wavy on fast acceleration or on sandy asphalt. This is the least bouncy of my 2.5”s. 

Chao Yang H-5146 is incredibly stable and predictable on all surfaces, but makes a growl on asphalt which makes the rolling feel laboured. Mileage is not affected though.

Kenda (from Lhotz) has good grip when cornering on dirt, but is the bounciest of the bunch.

 

i’m sure the Chao Yang H-5167 would be a near perfect 2.5” tire, but the tire literally doesn’t exist. All the sellers on Ebay, Yoycart and English-Taobao would’ve sent the H-5146 instead (which is why I have the H-5146 in the first place...). Currently considering the H-5168.

5167.jpg.d8f3b208236bf414d86e0daacfae628f.jpg5168.png.d1f13222c27795b8e8f49e552fc43508.png

Edited by mrelwood
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@mrelwood interesting you comment about relative tire designs now.  Just yesterday @IPS Malta has returned to Europe with a different 16x2.5 tire to try.  It's a ChaoYang H-5102. He says he got it directly from IPS and we are assuming it's a replacement for the 5146, because that Is the tire on @The Fat Unicyclist Lhotz.  @IPS Malta is going to send it to me and I'm sending him my slightly used semi slic.  Since I last reported on this mod.  I'm still of the mind that the original Kenda handled better.  So, since I've already passed the point of no return (modified shell) I thought I'd give the 5102 a try since it comes from IPS.  If I'm not happy with it, I can still put the original Kenda back on.  Who know; with my "Big Foot" pedal mod, maybe that's all I actually need.

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Posted (edited)

The H-5102 looks promising, I considered it too. I’m sure it suits an EUC a whole lot better than your semi-slick, and will grip on grass and dirt like crazy.

When searching for tire images, I noticed that a lot of Lhotzes come with the H-5102. Mine came in March 2017 with the Kenda.

I got confirmation from a new supplier that they do have the H-5167 in stock! I bought it, but since this is dealing with China, there’s still a chance they’ll contact me in a week saying they don’t have it after all. If so, I’ll go with the H-5168.

Sucks to pay $40 postage on a $10 item though. I used to think more price equals more quality. Nuh-uh, usually one pays just for bad logistics (or marketing).

Edited by mrelwood
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11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The H-5102 looks promising, I considered it too. I’m sure it suits an EUC a whole lot better than your semi-slick, and will grip on grass and dirt like crazy.

When searching for tire images, I noticed that a lot of Lhotzes come with the H-5102. Mine came in March 2017 with the Kenda.

I got confirmation from a new supplier that they do have the H-5167 in stock! I bought it, but since this is dealing with China, there’s still a chance they’ll contact me in a week saying they don’t have it after all. If so, I’ll go with the H-5168.

Sucks to pay $40 postage on a $10 item though. I used to think more price equals more quality. Nuh-uh, usually one pays just for bad logistics (or marketing).

Good to get confirmation that IPS uses the 5102 as @IPS Malta stated.  Hopefully it was chosen by them for its combination of ride characteristics.  I paid over £40 tax, mostly on the airmail for two tires from China.  Tax on shipped goods is based on the total cost of the shipment, including shipping.  So if you buy a $10 item and pay $40 to ship it fast from China, you pay import tax on $50. Better to use the cheap shipping if you can afford to wait.

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Got an email, shipping is after all $50, so I would have to pay more. First tire last fall had a shipping weight of 900g. The second was 1200g. Now it's 1600g. All Chaoyangs, same size.

Although I have hunted this tire for months, I'm seriously considering cancelling the Yoycart order and going with a Taobao Agent instead.

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