Popular Post Smoother Posted February 19, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) So A few weeks back I asked about this modification to a KS16 (replacing the 2.125" tire with a 2.5" tire). I also started asking about 2.5" tires. The tires I bought are in the first link. Photos of someone else's 2,5" mod in the second link. Obtaining a 2.5" tire in Europe proved difficult, although I'm sure someone has them in stock, somewhere. @IPS Malta came to my rescue by shipping me 2, 2.5" tires from China (he spends time in China). The 2nd. tire is for my KS14. I was trying to buy them via Chinese websites, but wasn't sure what I was doing. @IPS Malta did all the thinking for me and made it a simple error free experience. He sent me the two tires I asked for. He did not imfluence my decision in any way. So A BIG shout out to @IPS Malta, who went out of his way to help me even though he doesn't know me from @Adam Hi @Adam . Fitting the tire was my usual routine, you know, fit it wrong, do it all over again, that old chestnut. Actually, I didn't fit it wrong, but with the 14" tire, I tried to fit it as it was intended, i.e. tubeless, with a stand-alone valve. The first problem was the existing vale hole in the rim was too small to pull the new valve stem through. So I drilled it out a bit. But the hole is so close to the edge of the rim that the rubber base of the valve intrudes into the space where the tire meets the rim. As a tubeless tire, it is critical that this interface is sound. So I cut back some of the valve base, to clear the bead of the tire. Of course, as you can guess, when I put the tire on, this area would not hold air. So off with the tire, and in with the factory innertube. Then I read a thread where someone's innertube had sprung a leak from rubbing against the tire. So off comes the tire... no, not really. I let the air out and sprinkled in a liberal dose of talcum powder, to reduce the friction. Cleaned the talc from the bead to prevent the tire from slipping and ripping the valve out of the tube. For the 16", I went straight to the innertube/talc route. So far this seems to be working fine. Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) FIRST IMPRESSION (ride one, Friday morning) I'm not impressed. Turning has become very strange and unnatural. Let me try and explain it: When turning the wheel tries quite hard to stay upright, putting noticeable pressure on the inside edge of my outside calf. In addition, the nose of the wheel wants to fall into the turn; creating an alarming over-turn scare. I tried riding it for 20 or so minutes before I had to leave for the weekend. But although I took my wheel with me to the coast, as I do every weekend, I was not happy. I DON'T LIKE IT. Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) SECOND IMPRESSION (ride two Saturday Morning) So I started playing with the air pressure. Initially, it was 31psi. (all pressures are approximate). I also tried it at 26psi. This seemed better, but I discovered that at 26psi, if I hit a bump(edit..in a corner) (also known as a @Rehab1 ), I got an alarming wobble. Not wanting photos of my nipples censored by @Marty Backe I fought hard to not fly straight into a hospital bed. (Just kidding, it wasn't that bad, in reality, but a wake-up call, that stability wasn't any better yet). I was feeling a bit more comfortable on flat, level paved or bricked surfaces, so I took to the hills, literally. When the west end of Eastbourne (Sussex, UK) promenade runs out, the grassy slopes and chalk cliff leading to Beachy Head (famous lighthouse and popular suicide jump off cliff), begin. My new tire, being somewhat of a slick, I was curious, and apprehensive how it would handle moist grass and soft mud, on slopes. Initially, it was pretty good, so I attempted a challenge; a steep damp grassy slope which was about 15 feet long but steep enough that I couldn't see over the top of it. I rode with my arms outstretched, expecting a face plant at any second, but, no, nothing! It made it no problem. So I got more adventurous and climbed more grassy slopes. Soon I was a few hundred feet above sea level (having started near sea level). It handles everything just fine. I was impressed. But, my battery was at 40% and the car was all the way at the other end of the seafront, with some hills in the way, so I took some photos, and headed home; even though I wanted to climb some more. Even descending on damp grass over soft mud, to sea level was a non-event. I'M STARTING TO LIKE IT. Part way to Beachy Head. Town of Eastbourne in the background. The path I took to get here is below the white tower block, but the path turns to wet soft grass as the path disappears below the hill. This is the way I came up. Look carefully on the right of the path, in the mud. That's my tire track. Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) THIRD IMPRESSION (Ride three, Saturday Afternoon.) Came back to the seafront after a charge. Bumped pressure up to 40psi but soon found it too darty, so backed it off. Discovered it was at 31psi again, but rode it anyway. Experimenting with foot positions seemed to make a difference. Experimenting with the way I execute turns, also made a difference. Bending the knees/ankles differently, seemed to make a difference. The standing up in corners, and nose-diving into corners was becoming less distinct, and less noticeable. Lots and LOTS of turns, slaloms, 180s 360s figure 8s etc. Lots and LOTS of experimenting with feet, knees, ankles, hips, (no, not the hips) and Its starting to feel good. Higher speeds and bumps still create wobbles. I LIKE IT. Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 FORTH IMPRESSION (Ride four, Brighton seafront, Sunday) 31 psi seems ok. Might try a little higher, but not so much that I'm pinging off every raised object that I run over. Things are starting to feel very normal. I can't feel the wheel standing up in turns. I can't feel the nose-diving into turns, and it doesn't feel darty. I'm pulling off large, deep, slalom turns, one after the other, for miles. Keeping in time with my music, I'm having a great time. Making adjustments mid-turn is easy and effortless. The nature of my slaloms is more smooth and uniform than with the original Kenda tire. I'm swooshing effortlessly through the thousands of people out for a Sunday stroll at the beach, Even their unleashed dogs, and wayward kids are no problem (mostly). Honestly, I can't quite put my finger on it, but somewhere along the way, I've adjusted to a tire, that 2 days earlier, I was swearing I was going to have to remove. It's not all strawberries and cream, however. Bumps still create wobbles, and riding over rough terrain ( a series of bumps) is Wobble City. So the stability I was after is not there yet. I'm hoping its something I'm doing that can be changed. I REALLY LIKE IT! Sometime soon I'm going to start where the blacktop ends and climb those grassy cliffs all the way to Beachy Head. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 47 minutes ago, Smoother said: so I took some photos Post plz. Of the wheel+tire would be interesting, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Above. Original Tire with about 250km on it. 18650s in the background getting a charge for a different project. New tire. Also of note in this photo: Tape over pedal attachment holes to keep dirt, and water out. Rubber shipping bumpers as redneck suspension. 6Amp SKY RC charger in the background. Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Smoother said: SECOND IMPRESSION (ride two Saturday Morning) So I started playing with the air pressure. Initially, it was 31psi. (all pressures are approximate). I also tried it at 26psi. This seemed better, but I discovered that at 26psi, if I hit a bump (also known as a @Rehab1 ), I got an alarming wobble. Not wanting photos of my nipples censored by @Marty Backe I fought hard to not fly straight into a hospital bed. (Just kidding, it wasn't that bad, in reality, but a wake-up call, that stability wasn't any better yet). Bumps and nipples. @Hunka Hunka Burning Love I need some help over here! BTW I hope to drop off the motor to my friend this weekend. We have a non/ hydraulic press at work and my employees could not get the axle to budge. Edited February 20, 2018 by Rehab1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Gold markings are second or third trim lines. Note that bottom shell outer half is currently separated from the inner. I trimmed both shells (inner and outer) equally, then sculped the inner edge. If I had to do it again, I would trim the inner and outer separately, trimming and sculpting only the inner to the tire, and then trimming the outer only where necessary. Ribbed padding has been cut away to make way for the electric jigsaw. Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) This damage is from the plastic inner shell as it is slid over the wires to be installed or removed. The plastic between these six pedal mounting holes, does the damage. 30 seconds with the jigsaw, fixed it forever. I see no reason for this plastic to be here; It adds no structural strength. The worst of the damage insulated with electrical tape. The rest gets protected too (no Photo). Notice that in this final position (shell raised so that only 4 pedal bolts can be used) all four holes do not line up. The plastic had to be drilled out a bit so the bolts would go in. Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2018 This is a view from the other side (away from the motor wires) The holes in the inner shell did not line up with the holes in the outer shell. I trimmed the plastic with a knife. One side finished. It's not perfect, but it's no gaping hole either. Other side finished. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2018 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, Smoother said: Great modification, it kind of looks like a KS18 now the way the shell is cut away. It looks good. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litewave Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Nice write-up - I hope you will continue to update us. I was impressed by the dramatically improved traction and handling, except for the wobbles. This reinforces my anticipation for the Ninebot Z and 4" tyre. I'm baffled as to why you are experiencing wobble and instability after hitting small bumps, unless caused by a collision of the tyre and shell due to the close tolerances even after widening the shell. I trust that the Ninebot Z which is programmed and engineered for a wide tyre, will not exhibit this problem. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, litewave said: Nice write-up - I hope you will continue to update us. I was impressed by the dramatically improved traction and handling, except for the wobbles. This reinforces my anticipation for the Ninebot Z and 4" tyre. Thanks. Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with the Kenda grip, it's just that this tire is almost a slick, so i was expecting it to slip and slide on damp grassy slopes. I did get some sideways sliding, navigating the tire ruts on the trail but the orig. tire would have done the same. 45 minutes ago, litewave said: I'm baffled as to why you are experiencing wobble and instability after hitting small bumps, unless caused by a collision of the tyre and shell due to the close tolerances even after widening the shell. I trust that the Ninebot Z which is programmed and engineered for a wide tyre, will not exhibit this problem. I get wobbles with the orig. tire too. My new tire makes no contact with the shell. It could be me. I'm hoping it's me. Although, as we all know, wobbles exist and can be dangerous. Of course, with a wider tire, there are more opportunities for parts of the tread to come into contact with raised parts of the path that are not directly under the central rib of the tire. So if you run over a rock on the far right side of the tire ( a pebble that a thinner tire might miss) the wheel will want to pivot away from this rock, to the left, especially with high pressure/little give. Then repeat this process on the left, and you pivot the other way. I took a mud and rock path for about 1/2 a mile, and tried to go as fast as I could. That's where I discovered Wobble City. Also, I was aware of marked tram-lining. When riding on a level surface parallel with another surface with a slight height difference 3 or more mm, and the wheel pulls hard to one side. I almost never experienced this on my two 2.125" Kendas (14" and 16") I would even tempt the tram-line gods by deliberately riding where tram-lining should be induced, nothing. So watching out for possible tram-line scenarios has come back into my arsenal. No biggie; don't ride on or near an obvious line going your way. I would suspect that if the edge of a Ninebot Z tire runs over a raised object, it would tip quite markedly to the other side, especially as the large distance of the edge of the tire from the center, could produce significantly more leverage than a thin tire. All the test rides are on finished, flat surfaces, or slickly produced promotional videos. I wouldn't buy one without know how it handles irregular surfaces. (Not Ninebot bashing, I like the look of the Z, very mean looking) Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litewave Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, Smoother said: I get wobbles with the orig. tire too. My new tire makes no contact with the shell. It could be me. I'm hoping it's me. Although, as we all know, wobbles exist and can be dangerous. In my experience, wobbles are likely if foot placement is too far to the front or rear. A small bump is enough to trigger the wobble. 11 minutes ago, Smoother said: Also, I was aware of marked tram-lining. When riding on a level surface parallel with another surface with a slight height difference 3 or more mm, and the wheel pulls hard to one side. I almost never experienced this on my two 2.125" Kendas (14" and 16") I would even tempt the tram-line gods by deliberately riding where tram-lining should be induced, nothing. So watching out for possible tram-line scenarios has come back into my arsenal. No biggie; don't ride on or near an obvious line going your way. I was hoping that a wide tyre would better handle grooved surfaces, like trails with dried bicycle ruts that my 2" tyre would get caught in. 14 minutes ago, Smoother said: I would suspect that if the edge of a Ninebot Z tire runs over a raised object, it would tip quite markedly to the other side. All the test rides are on finished, flat surfaces, or carefully edited promotional videos. I wouldn't buy one without know how it handles irregular surfaces. I have wondered about this as well, but it won't deter me from buying the Z within a few months of its release, unless major defects are widely reported. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Another thing I noticed, was that occasionally and with no obvious warning or reason, the wheel would forceably want to be something other than upright (on a left to right basis), even though I had not directed it so. I think this is a result of one side of the tire or other being pushed up by uneven ground on one side. In other words the force pushing up (the edge of the tire in contact with the higher ground), is not directly below the force pushing down(ride'rs all up weight acting directly through the center of the wheel). I also noticed this when riding a motorcycle with a wide rear tire. When riding diagonally across a sloping driveway or edge-of-the-road drop off, I had to fight to stop the bike actively leaning towards the lower side of the road; sometimes quite un-safely. I suspect riding a Nine Z diagonally across a slope would also create this, quite forceful, lean. Even at 2.5" it is hard to counteract. I just end up riding with the wheel in its new "normal" angle until it rights itself, on more level ground. Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Nice mod and documentation. I've seen this done with the ACM too. Just couldn't get myself to hack up the shell like that. ~31-psi seems incredibly low. I run 65-psi on my KS14S and 45-psi on the ACM & MSuper. Basically I like to fill the tires to the max rating printed on the tire. Just be aware that you increase the odds of getting a snakebite puncture when running your tire almost flat BTW, I appreciate you saving me the effort of having to censor more pictures. That @Rehab1 guy can keep someone busy with all his flashing 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: ~31-psi seems incredibly low I go by feel, not psi. This is a tubeless tire and it is about 4 times stiffer (not a scientific number) than the factory tire. At 40psi the contact patch is about the size of a quarter (again, not scientific) so it's alarmingly twitchy. I used to run my 14c at 65psi for the first 800 miles, until I realized that softer was more relaxing, and I stopped pinging off every little pebble and pavement crack. But we've had this discussion before. With the 16s stock tire, I think I ran in the mid-40s. I guess the message here, is; if you don't like some aspect of your wheels handling, experiment with the tire pressure. But, as @Marty Backe says, not too low or you run the risk of getting a snake-bite flat. Also, handling becomes very ponderous. On a related note. I used to race shifter karts, and tire pressure was critical. We had special tire temperature probes to measure after practice at both edges and the middle. The spread of temperature told you if your pressure needed adjusting to optimize the contact patch. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPS Malta Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 the pressure of 35psi is very normal on a 2.5". you should adjust the pressure to the weight (which is why you have a range) in most cases our weight is more than what could be ridden on the tires so most of the time we need to aim to higher pressures mentioned. p=F/A ... A is increased so p needs to be less. the IPS wheels (LHOTZ to Zero) I remeber they had a huge difference and I was kind of afraid reaching high pressure on the Zero thinking it might blow up which it never did and I think I was on 45+ psi. As being tubeless the walls are more rigid so the tube needs less pressure as it only needs to oppose the force down while a tube one will need more pressure to sustain the walls too (I might be wrong on the last as I am no expert but learning on tire technology). As for the tire and wobble, I can understand that a more round surface might give you a feeling of a narrow wheel to which you need to adopt a bit (you're more like traveling on a rope now). There is also a factor of wearing the tire a bit (I was always suggested not to stress new tires for the first few hundreds of km (probably less on an EUC) on a car until they do their run-in period and get to their optimal state). Also is the rotation of the tire right? Did you see improvement in turning at higher speeds and wider turns as you have to lean sideways a bit on those? I think there it performs better with more road hold and less risky to skids on turns from what I can think about. I was also thinking that maybe the board didn't balance on closing it back. Did you try to hold it steady on flat and see if the wheel pushes more/less forward/ backwards when not loaded? If so maybe a calibration might help. Well done for the job, that new tire really looks nice and even the wheel have a new look now... you're making me want to experiment on my i5 here but that doesn't have the room for changes as you have on your KS. I need to dig deeper for a perfect different road type tire while trying to achieve something new, but will definitely have to wait for now (maybe mid 2018) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Awrsome mods and documentary of the process. @Smoother! Doesn’t it feel great to create a unique wheel? A little slicing and grinding and presto you have your own signature wheel. Your.a brother from a different mother. Edited February 20, 2018 by Rehab1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad0z Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Smoother said: SECOND IMPRESSION (ride two Saturday Morning) So I started playing with the air pressure. Initially, it was 31psi. (all pressures are approximate). I also tried it at 26psi. This seemed better, but I discovered that at 26psi, if I hit a bump (also known as a @Rehab1 ), I got an alarming wobble. Not wanting photos of my nipples censored by @Marty Backe I fought hard to not fly straight into a hospital bed. (Just kidding, it wasn't that bad, in reality, but a wake-up call, that stability wasn't any better yet). I was feeling a bit more comfortable on flat, level paved or bricked surfaces, so I took to the hills, literally. When the west end of Eastbourne (Sussex, UK) promenade runs out, the grassy slopes and chalk cliff leading to Beachy Head (famous lighthouse and popular suicide jump off cliff), begin. My new tire, being somewhat of a slick, I was curious, and apprehensive how it would handle moist grass and soft mud, on slopes. Initially, it was pretty good, so I attempted a challenge; a steep damp grassy slope which was about 15 feet long but steep enough that I couldn't see over the top of it. I rode with my arms outstretched, expecting a face plant at any second, but, no, nothing! It made it no problem. So I got more adventurous and climbed more grassy slopes. Soon I was a few hundred feet above sea level (having started near sea level). It handles everything just fine. I was impressed. But, my battery was at 40% and the car was all the way at the other end of the seafront, with some hills in the way, so I took some photos, and headed home; even though I wanted to climb some more. Even descending on damp grass over soft mud, to sea level was a non-event. I'M STARTING TO LIKE IT. Part way to Beachy Head. Town of Eastbourne in the background. The path I took to get here is below the white tower block, but the path turns to wet soft grass as the path disappears below the hill. This is the way I came up. Look carefully on the right of the path, in the mud. That's my tire track. hmm good that you could find a tire but i think 20-30 psi.. that is alarmingly low but i just read it was tubelsess.. but i still think 20 psi pretty damn low i mean does the tire even old out properly??? Edited February 20, 2018 by Shad0z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Shad0z said: but i think 20-30 psi. The lowest pressure was 26psi, not 20, and it was fine, just a little wobbly in bumpy turns due to being on the softer side of the range, but bumpy turns are always a bit iffy at any pressure. Also, I don't jump up or down curbs so i'm not a candidate for snake bites, generally. Trust me. I worked for the largest independent tire retailer in the US for a few years. Examining dozens of customer's tires every day, I know a bit more about tires than the average Joe. I have a "correct pressure" test. At a low speed, I bounce up and down on the pedals a few times. The amount of squish and rebound I get, tells me which side of ideal, I am. It's a little more vague on this tire because of the stiff sidewalls. That, and the unusual handling I experienced, is why I'm experimenting. Also, just FYI. When quoting a post, take the time to remove the unnecessary parts to your response; in this case, all the photographs, and 60% of the text. It just makes things neater. See how I only quoted the part of your post I was replying too? Edited February 20, 2018 by Smoother 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Rehab1 said: Doesn’t it feel great to create a unique wheel? Yeah, right up until some Californian is photoshopping your nipples. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad0z Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Smoother said: When quoting a post, take the time to remove the unnecessary parts to your response; in this case, all the photographs, and 60% of the text. It just makes things neater. See how I only quoted the part of your post I was replying too? ah thank you.. i will do that so you have experience with tyres.. always a good thing. . . dont you get tyred? Edited February 20, 2018 by Shad0z 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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