acevalsl Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 sorry, I want buy this from Spain. do you have it?? wheels don't sent to Spain original charger is very hot when charging https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gen-v-5a67-2v-charger-king-song-electric-wheels/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUniCycles.eu Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 We are shipping our chargers to all EU. In case of Spain it takes 3-4 working days. Our chargers are similar to E-Wheels chargers. In our product you can setup cut-off limit on display by button (not on potentiometer). It is our product, developed in Poland. I can tell you more on priv. Our post is becomes too much commercial. Sorry guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acevalsl Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 sorry. send PM. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 left the ks-18s charging overnight but no change. still says 90% charged. if one of the three battery packs became disconnected would it still read 90% and the ks-16s reads 94%. maybe after a good workout the charger will be able to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 after reading @Jason McNeil description of his 5amp charger and the effects of overcharging, maybe charging to 90% and 94% is a good thing. not too hilly where i’m at in florida, but for around here my property is the hilliest. i’m gonna try an experiment and take the 18s to my hilly pasture on a full charge and ride it braking downhill and see if that does anything. would be a helluva way to get to 100%. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 u know, maybe, i can’t remember exactly, my problem is my fault. i happened to notice how hot these things get while riding them today, from the app of course because we are no where near the batteries, and maybe iput them on the charger before the batteries cooled enough for a full charge. idk just guessing. i did a mile in the pasture today and 3.5 miles on my road and it went from 90% down to 83% on the ks-18s, pedals set to hard(on all of them)17mph top speed.did 3.1 miles on the ks-16s and went from 94% to 81% all driveway miles and top speed 14 mph. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 15 hours ago, novazeus said: u know, maybe, i can’t remember exactly, my problem is my fault. i happened to notice how hot these things get while riding them today, from the app of course because we are no where near the batteries, and maybe iput them on the charger before the batteries cooled enough for a full charge. idk just guessing. i did a mile in the pasture today and 3.5 miles on my road and it went from 90% down to 83% on the ks-18s, pedals set to hard(on all of them)17mph top speed.did 3.1 miles on the ks-16s and went from 94% to 81% all driveway miles and top speed 14 mph. That could be the reason, you are supposed to let the batteries cool down to room temperature before connecting the charger. Maybe a few more charge cycles will condition the batteries to take more charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 i ran the ks-16s down to 70%. let the batteries cool down for hours. charged and left it hooked upovernight a good 12hours from the charger turning green and now it’s at 93%. i bought 6 wheels. 4 9bots, 2 kingsong all about the same time ans started using them at the same time, and only the kingsongs have charging issues. maybe it’s the kingsong app, or some have said on fb, bad chargers, but that doesn’t seem right. out of all the wheels kingsong sells, i get two defective ones? doesn’t seem logical. haven’t tried charging the 18s yet. was gonna run it down lower then try it, but not looking good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Onymous Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) It sounds to me like you need to use a power strip or a power strip surge protector. The ninebots have a different charger and it is more rugged and less suseptable to surges. On the power strip/ surge protector I have, I have had to reset it during and after charging my EUC. There is a little red light that goes off on the power strip that tells me when I have a surge. Then I hit the reset button. They only cost $10-20 for the best, and they are valuable when you have electronics with sensitive circuitry. Edited February 23, 2018 by Stan Onymous Grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said: It sounds to me like you need to use a power strip or a power strip surge protector. The ninebots have a different charger and it is more rugged and less suseptable to surges. On the power strip/ surge protector I have, I have had to reset it during and after charging my EUC. There is a little red light that goes off on the power strip that tells me when I have a surge. Then I hit the reset button. They only cost $10-20 for the best, and they are valuable when you have electronics with sensitive circuitry. yeah i can try that. i have a line conditioner, which is better. if anybody knows, assume it’s not the chargers, not the app, not the bms or kingsong’s board, and it’s the battery packs. what does that mean? are there bad cells or cell in the battery packs? how would u troubleshoot if i wanted to? put a meter on individual packs and look for discrepancy between packs? then what, replace the whole pack? i’m not needing range, i just want to know if these defects make the wheels less safe? i’ll ride them til they won’t charge if they are safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 If you haven't found a multimeter yet, and there is a Harbor Freight tool store nearby, you can get one for about $12. Easiest thing to check first is the voltage at the charger plug, then the battery packs individually. I still think you should try running them down to about 50% three or four times and see if the voltage goes up, It would be interesting to know what the charger outputs are. If they are a little low, sometimes you can take the case off and turn a potentiometer to raise the voltage to 67.2V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 25 minutes ago, steve454 said: If you haven't found a multimeter yet, and there is a Harbor Freight tool store nearby, you can get one for about $12. Easiest thing to check first is the voltage at the charger plug, then the battery packs individually. I still think you should try running them down to about 50% three or four times and see if the voltage goes up, It would be interesting to know what the charger outputs are. If they are a little low, sometimes you can take the case off and turn a potentiometer to raise the voltage to 67.2V I finally got a multimeter to work sorta and the output voltage is 67+ volts on both. Like I said, i don't really need a full charge unless these defects make the wheels dangerous. I don't like it but I'm not gonna waste my time trying to troubleshoot them when I have a $80k new backhoe loader I have to fix because a rat ate a starter interrupt wire. I just wanna know if this inability to obtain a full charge does anything else besides decrease range. If that's all it is, I'll live with it. I'm not shipping them back to china and the vendors and kingsong I'm sure doesn't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 1 hour ago, novazeus said: I finally got a multimeter to work sorta and the output voltage is 67+ volts on both. 67+ volts should be 100% charge and not 93% - seems like there is something wrong. I'll try to take a charger voltage measurement on my schedule for this weekend for comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 55 minutes ago, Chriull said: 67+ volts should be 100% charge and not 93% - seems like there is something wrong. I'll try to take a charger voltage measurement on my schedule for this weekend for comparison. one charger was 67.4 the other 67.7. i just hooked it up to the 67.7 one for grins. the the top two pinholes are positive and negative, i’m guessing the third hole must do something. if it’s not the chargers, and it’s the battery packs, what defect could that be in the battery packs. like i’m presuming 16 cells per pack, if one cell was a dead short, idk what batteries do when they are duds, would that cause the lower voltage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 i found this and this makes sense to me, i guess. https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/knowledge-base/batteries-aa/20988-faq-charging-batteries 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Keith Posted February 24, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, novazeus said: i found this and this makes sense to me, i guess. https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/knowledge-base/batteries-aa/20988-faq-charging-batteries Yes, bottom line is there is some misunderstanding and misinformation going on in this thread. Cycling or fully discharging Lithium Ion batteries just ages them - it doesn’t “condition” them in any way to hold more charge. That is common VERY POOR advice that is a hang over from NiCad’s! fully charged is 4.2V/cell - end of story. That is all any device is doing to indicate charge level. Zero charge is more arbitrary and needs to take a view on the average level of current flowing whilst measuring it, but it is typically 3.0 to 3.5 volts per cell. Having said the above, Some “intelligent” devices will show charge level based on power drawn and power fed back into the pack, I.e. they have a wattmeter built into them, these can go out of sync very easily and need a deep discharge/charge cycle to sync them again. I do not believe ANY EUC has such a charge mechanism built into it - it tends to be in things like smart phones. So, bottom line, one pack becoming disconnected, or any such like fault will not change the percentage charged level, it is just read as a voltage. A fully charged 16 series pack will be 67.2V and 20 series will be 84.0V. You can only be sure of this with a meter. There is a high probability that any monitoring device on the wheel or its software may not be anything like 100% accurate. The charger may go a bit higher than this if the charge line has a diode protection on it which may drop the charge voltage by 0.3 to 0.6V. If the charger output is lower than this then the battery will not fully charge - ever. Cells become damaged if charged above 4.25V per cell (16 cell =68V, 20 cell=85V) so a charger voltage above this will damage the pack and may cause a fire. Since NOT charging to 100% improves the life of cells, the only downside is balancing. Most EUC’s have a crude BMS which starts shunting current around cells at above 4.2V thus clamping those cells at that voltage. Fully charging and leaving tricking for some hours will, therefore, ensure all cells are at 4.2V. If the pack is not fully charged at least occasionally then individual groups of cells can go out of balance (I.e. higher or lower voltage than others in the pack) if the pack is discharged very low then any low out of balance cells may drop to even lower voltage than the rest or possibly even get reverse charged - that will permanently damage those cells. (Another VERY good reason for NEVER deliberately cycling or fully discharging a pack if you think you have charging problems!) The BMS should always prevent any cells gettting above 4.2V unless the charge current is too high to shunt - which will happen if the charger output is set significantly higher than 4.25V/cell. Finally one or more cells being short circuit and dragging the charge below 100% is VERY unlikely. Failing cells tend to go “leaky” not full short circuit. What is way, way more likely to happen is the wheel would charge to 100% OK, but if left unused for a few days the voltage will slowly drop. An even more likely failure mechanism within individual cells is for them to go high resistance or low capacity, or both. In this case, the wheel will charge to 100% OK, and may stay at 100% or near it if left unused, but under load the voltage (and therefore % charge) will drop abnormally quickly ( it will always drop a bit under load even with good cells) and then recover when the wheel is stopped or the load reduced. Edited February 24, 2018 by Keith 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Keith said: Yes, bottom line is there is some misunderstanding and misinformation going on in this thread. Cycling or fully discharging Lithium Ion batteries just ages them - it doesn’t “condition” them in any way to hold more charge. That is common VERY POOR advice that is a hang over from NiCad’s! fully charged is 4.2V/cell - end of story. That is all any device is doing to indicate charge level. Zero charge is more arbitrary and needs to take a view on the average level of current flowing whilst measuring it, but it is typically 3.0 to 3.5 volts per cell. Having said the above, Some “intelligent” devices will show charge level based on power drawn and power fed back into the pack, I.e. they have a wattmeter built into them, these can go out of sync very easily and need a deep discharge/charge cycle to sync them again. I do not believe ANY EUC has such a charge mechanism built into it - it tends to be in things like smart phones. So, bottom line, one pack becoming disconnected, or any such like fault will not change the percentage charged level, it is just read as a voltage. A fully charged 16 series pack will be 67.2V and 20 series will be 84.0V. You can only be sure of this with a meter. There is a high probability that any monitoring device on the wheel or its software may not be anything like 100% accurate. The charger may go a bit higher than this if the charge line has a diode protection on it which may drop the charge voltage by 0.3 to 0.6V. If the charger output is lower than this then the battery will not fully charge - ever. Cells become damaged if charged above 4.25V per cell (16 cell =68V, 20 cell=85V) so a charger voltage above this will damage the pack and may cause a fire. Since NOT charging to 100% improves the life of cells, the only downside is balancing. Most EUC’s have a crude BMS which starts shunting current around cells at above 4.2V thus clamping those cells at that voltage. Fully charging and leaving tricking for some hours will, therefore, ensure all cells are at 4.2V. If the pack is not fully charged at least occasionally then individual groups of cells can go out of balance (I.e. higher or lower voltage than others in the pack) if the pack is discharged very low then any low out of balance cells may drop to even lower voltage than the rest or possibly even get reverse charged - that will permanently damage those cells. (Another VERY good reason for NEVER deliberately cycling or fully discharging a pack if you think you have charging problems!) The BMS should always prevent any cells gettting above 4.2V unless the charge current is too high to shunt - which will happen if the charger output is set significantly higher than 4.25V/cell. Finally one or more cells being short circuit and dragging the charge below 100% is VERY unlikely. Failing cells tend to go “leaky” not full short circuit. What is way, way more likely to happen is the wheel would charge to 100% OK, but if left unused for a few days the voltage will slowly drop. An even more likely failure mechanism within individual cells is for them to go high resistance or low capacity, or both. In this case, the wheel will charge to 100% OK, and may stay at 100% or near it if left unused, but under load the voltage (and therefore % charge) will drop abnormally quickly ( it will always drop a bit under load even with good cells) and then recover when the wheel is stopped or the load reduced. thank you for taking the time to discuss this. i think the electricbike forum explanation was pretty good. i got the kingsongs sometime in august but i didn’t have the time to get started learning how to ride. i now seem to remember putting them on the charger and waiting until the brick turned green and then just setting them aside, and coming back to them a couple of days later and kinda scratching my head that the voltage was at 92%, not 100% or close. i didn’t check them coming off the charger until recently. i would charge, let them sit a day so the bms would balance the pack, or so i thought. so i’m thinking these battery packs in both wheels never got a full 67.2 volt charge, or like u say, the app or something else giving a false reading, like the app telling me my top speed is 2.1 mph and it hasn’t moved. so i’m hoping the bike guy is right and eventually the cells will balance in the packs. it’s been awhile since i was screwing around with nicads for my rc helis and like u say, totally different animal. i quit that hobby before everyone went electric. so, presuming the chargers aren’t defective, the only explanation other than the hardware or software giving a false reading, and i don’t wanna take the apart to measure the individual packs, i guess i’ll hope the bike guy is correct. i haven’t checked but i’m sure the wheels charge pins aren’t hot. i gotta research and figure out what the 3rd pin is for. i don’t think leaving the charger on after it turns green does anything, ie no trickle. like the amps are too low. just checked the 18s. at least both wheels are consistent. after sitting an hour or so after coming off an overnight charge, it still reads 90%. i’m just gonna keep riding them and i let them get to 70% and then recharge. hopefully the bike guy is right and they will balance. someday i’ll open up the ks-18s and see how everything is wearing and i’ll measure the packs at that time if the problem hasn’t gone away. sure would be nice if kingsong’s app was like 9bots showing individual battery packs. or if kingsong could read english and knew the answer and could translate better. like “don’t store in dry condition”. i keep mine in a bathtub full of water and epsom salts. if i were @Jason McNeil i would beg them to let him help them do their translations. or hire a chinese pilot. Edited February 24, 2018 by novazeus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 16 hours ago, novazeus said: i gotta research and figure out what the 3rd pin is for. i don’t think leaving the charger on after it turns green does anything, ie no trickle. like the amps are too low. Just picking up again on those above two points: the 3rd pin does nothing, there are only two wires from the charge socket to the batteries. Not actually true, the light goes green, not because charging has finished but because current has dropped below a threashold value. lithium Ion batteries do not “trickle charge” per se like NiCads do but current drops exponentially as the total voltage of The batteries gets closer and closer to the charger output voltage. I NEVER recommend leaving a LiIon charger on overnight; whilst a fault developing in the charger which could result in a serious fire is VERY unlikely indeed, it is not a zero probability. However leaving the charger on for an hour or two after it goes green, just occasionally - say once in every 10-20 charges - will help to ensure every cell is balanced fully. This was all discussed in more detail here: 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 @Keith do u have any idea why my packs are reading 90% and 93% after being on the charger? i appreciate ur great explanation but i still don’t have any idea of what is causing this less than full charge except for the electricbike guy’s explanation. do u agreewith him? what would u do if these were ur wheels? thanks in advance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, novazeus said: the electricbike guy’s explanation. do u agreewith him? what would u do if these were ur wheels? thanks in advance. Most of what he says is excellent, other than he has got it into his head that the charger shuts down, so he says things like: “charge it to 100% then cycle down a Volt or 2 and charge again to make sure the BMS balances OK”. I don’t know if bike chargers are different, but I’ve never come across an EUC one that does that (and his own charge graph also does not show the charger shut down). Just leaving the charger on after it has gone green for an hour or two is all that is required for balancing to complete OK. Admittedly the first graph on this well worth reading page from Battery University does show a charger that switches off (and then on again to “top up” when the battery voltage settles) but I am not aware of any EUC chargers that work this way? http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries 20 hours ago, novazeus said: @Keith do u have any idea why my packs are reading 90% and 93% after being on the charger? i appreciate ur great explanation but i still don’t have any idea of what is causing this less than full charge? Without actually accurately measuring the pack voltage and the charger off load voltage any idea is no more than a guess. Firstly, although we talk about 4.2V per cell being fully charged, in practice the cells do settle back a bit after being charged, so software that considers 4.2V/cell as fully charged will tend to always read low once the cells have settled a bit. Also the discharge curve starts by dropping extremely rapidly down from 4.2V to 4.0 or lower before settling to a gentle curve so, really 100% should be seen as more like 4.0V see the graph here for example: Providing the charger does charge to a true 4.2V per cell, then whilst the charger is still connected, I would expect the capacity to show as 100% even if the battery was not very healthy. So if the charge indicator never reaches 100% then the likelihood is either the charger does not reach the full voltage of 4.2V/cell times the number of series cells or the charge indicator is simply not reading correctly. A battery would have to be very, very unhealthy to be leaking charge faster than the charger can top it up, and in that case the most obvious symptom would be that the charger either never goes green (because the charge current never drops below the “charged” threshold) or takes an awful long time to go to green. There are no failure mechanisms in a battery pack (as opposed to the charger) that I can think of where the battery would take charge apparently normally (I.e. the charger lights red) yet when it goes green there is less than 4.2V per cell across each series battery. Of course the other thing you can do is get a Charge Doctor - this excellent device will tell you exactly what is going on during charging and such things as how much current is still flowing after the charger has gone green. Edited February 26, 2018 by Keith 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Valley Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 On 2/24/2018 at 7:51 PM, novazeus said: so, presuming the chargers aren’t defective, the only explanation other than the hardware or software giving a false reading, and i don’t wanna take the apart to measure the individual packs, i guess i’ll hope the bike guy is correct. i haven’t checked but i’m sure the wheels charge pins aren’t hot. i gotta research and figure out what the 3rd pin is for. Presuming are for people that go to church. you should really check the charger, it is a effective way of telling at what end you have the problem, as i said in an earlier post, i also had the problem that the original charger started to only charge to 90-92%, i quickly bought a new charger (4 amps becouse this i wanted anyways) and viola! charged again to 100%. Now i haven't checked the old charger, well because, the new one worked and the issue was gone, but i might hook it up to a voltmeter someday to see what it says. And If i have not misunderstood there is a potentiometer inside the charger, where you can fine tune the charging volt, but someone might want to pitch in and correct me on that note. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) I allready explained in our detailed PM conversation how to find out whats wrong... As nobody here is a visonar or clairvoyant i would guess it wont get any better ;-) Edited February 26, 2018 by KingSong69 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Valley Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: As nobody here is a visonar or clairvoyant i would guess it wont get any better! interesting choice of words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 the charger is putting out On 2/23/2018 at 8:06 PM, novazeus said: one charger was 67.4 the other 67.7. that’s checking the charger with a multimeter. so does that eliminate the chargers as the source of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Keith said: the charge indicator is simply not reading correctly. the charge indicator of the wheel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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