Safest EUC?

[novazeus]

just wanted to hear opinions of riders which euc available now they thought was mechanically the safest. speed shouldn’t be part of the judging because it is possible to ride slowly on a a fast euc.

[meepmeepmayer]

KS18S - great electronics, good warnings and limits, and 8 parallel battery blocks give you maximum ability to produce current spikes when you need them (no overlean at low battery percentages or low battery temperatures).

The same applies to the other KS S models (14D/S, 16S) - minus the battery thing, which isn't that big of a deal in practice.

[novazeus]

37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

KS18S - great electronics, good warnings and limits, and 8 parallel battery blocks give you maximum ability to produce current spikes when you need them (no overlean at low battery percentages or low battery temperatures).

The same applies to the other KS S models (14D/S, 16S) - minus the battery thing, which isn't that big of a deal in practice.

that’s good to hear. i’m learning and i’m really starting to like the 18s. i think my speed range will be 10-15mph. it’s quiet here at the ranch and i can clearly hear these little electric motors grunting along. nice to think just mildly cruising on flat terrain wouldn’t ever cause a failure.

[Marty Backe]

The one you're not riding.

[meepmeepmayer]

11 hours ago, novazeus said:

nice to think just mildly cruising on flat terrain wouldn’t ever cause a failure.

If you look at Marty's 18S mountain test videos, it can handle much more safely than just flat terrain at low speeds

I'd say the KS S models are the only wheels atm that can actually be called trustworthy, and you can just use them wherever without worrying about sudden hardware failure in the back of your mind.

While in fact sudden hardware failures are extremely rare, even with Gotways or Rockwheel, and this is more theoretical than a practical problem - the KS engineers actually did some thinking and design, vs. just reacting to problems and ignoring obvious flaws like paper thin cables.

[LanghamP]

I believe there's a French group that put out failure rates per brand and per wheel. I recall reading some surprising (to me) failure rates like the Inmotion V5 having double the failures of the V8, the KS16s having under a 2% failure rate, and the msuper v3 having something like 40% plus.

Someone did make a post of the French group but I can't find it.

I would not trust anecdotal evidence, as that is the weakest of all evidence. Someone telling you about a wheel is pretty bad for the general population of that wheel.

[US69]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

I believe there's a French group that put out failure rates per brand and per wheel. I recall reading some surprising (to me) failure rates like the Inmotion V5 having double the failures of the V8, the KS16s having under a 2% failure rate, and the msuper v3 having something like 40% plus.

Someone did make a post of the French group but I can't find it.

I would not trust anecdotal evidence, as that is the weakest of all evidence. Someone telling you about a wheel is pretty bad for the general population of that wheel.

That wasn't in the French Group...that was here.

There have been statistic's by Jason from ewheel and from electroway.ru, the russian seller.

[US69]

14 hours ago, novazeus said:

just wanted to hear opinions of riders which euc available now they thought was mechanically the safest. speed shouldn’t be part of the judging because it is possible to ride slowly on a a fast euc.

What all have been saying...

The KingSong S series are statisticly the best wheels available at the time!

Everyone who has owned different brand wheels and opened them up can also confirm this(If they are not blind ;-) ) 

Huge Quality difference.

 

Like said there have been statistics from Jason/ewheel and the Russian big seller providing failure/return/repairs rates they had.

Then Inmotion is following with a low failure rate.

[johrhoj]

46 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Everyone who has owned different brand wheels and opened them up can also confirm this(If they are not blind ;-) ) 

I must be blind according to @KingSong69 

My KS broke down just a few months after purchase. 

Also, the KS has far less reserve power than my Gotway, making it a hazardous to strain it.

I find my Ninebot One to be the safest wheel I owned, then my Gotway, then my KingSong.

When I opened up my KS, a wire was crushed between two plates. A very sloppy assembly of the wheel. The length of the wires inside make this easily possible. 

I want to stress that this is my personal experience, but I will not let myself be declared blind (No hard feelings )

[kasenutty]

Do you use a cane or do you have one of those dogs, johrhoj? 

[US69]

47 minutes ago, johrhoj said:

I must be blind according to @KingSong69 

My KS broke down just a few months after purchase. 

Also, the KS has far less reserve power than my Gotway, making it a hazardous to strain it.

I find my Ninebot One to be the safest wheel I owned, then my Gotway, then my KingSong.

When I opened up my KS, a wire was crushed between two plates. A very sloppy assembly of the wheel. The length of the wires inside make this easily possible. 

I want to stress that this is my personal experience, but I will not let myself be declared blind (No hard feelings )

Sure ...no hard Feelings......i hope you get that i used a Smiley on my "blind" Statement, also.

... but i may Quote your last post her in the forum:

On ‎29‎.‎01‎.‎2018 at 12:27 PM, johrhoj said:

My gotway had broken down (suddenly with no warning).

When i opened it, the motherboard was not fixed tight. Two screws holders had broken of. The main screw (with the heat-sink) had become loose too. So the controlboard had a little movement. That resulted in one of the powercables come loose.

 

So that didn't seam to be the best wheel, too, or?

On all brands there are for sure "monday" wheels and single examples of failure, so your personal experience  sure maybe that your Gotway is safer than your your KS.....

My own Gotways also didn't let me down, but having a lool inside and known the used parts, i wouldn't call that Quality, i would say i was lucky to be not in the  10%-20% failure rate of mosfet, dc converter, axle shims.

 

Seeing all statistics available over all different types of platforms and especialy getting the numbers of sellers that are not tied to one brand is a totally other Thing.

Then the question of the most reliable and trustable wheel -nowadays- is easy to answer.

But would be good not to get this thread down to a Fanboy forth and back.

When such a question like this from the OP is asked....it can be easy answered by Scrolling through the Forum....all evidence is here :-)

 

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by KingSong69

[IPS Malta]

well, I am not going to comment on Safest ( I only rode IPS with no failures [just few bugs about LED lights that they updated and one power-up thing that I didn't even bother to report], but I know maybe I ride too gently compared to you) but @johrhoj, a crushed wire is more of a QC thing and probably you fall in that 2 % of the statistics.

Never the less, yes there might be issues with Kingsong design/QC or better stuff in a Gotway, but you can admit that you can juice more power from a Gotway to a Kingsong. That being said do the better cabling and design reflect that on the same ratio?

(the last statement is based on what I read, I never saw any of them open except some random pictures so I am the least who can judge, while both seem promising wheels for performance in their own way)

@Marty Backe said it perfectly once somewhere here."he wish Gotway has from Kingsong and Kingsong has from Gotway".

As safest wheel, it will always boil down to the individual then how to use them, where, for what and what you expect from them. For me, I find IPS safe for their objectives (and you have all the right to disagree). They know their hardware is capable of 100% and they know they are less likely to fail at 70% so by 50% you're getting warnings while 70% they make it hard to go beyond. The others definitely give you 90/100% of their capability but also expect you to assess your own behaviour more. Of course, if you ride any performance wheel at the same limits of the IPS probably you are getting same or even better safety, but in the end, you still can overcome that (even unknowingly) and start loosing on your safety margin.

Edit: In the end, I commented anyway (couldn't resist apparently)

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by IPS Malta

[Demargon]

My v5f have a year. Lot of off road, trial and downhill riding. Big puddles, wet, hot and cold climates, dust and enough hits for reaching the fine texture of the picture with more than 2000km without a cut off because I don´t want stress it

Edited February 13, 2018 by Demargon

[LEO_LEO]

14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

The one you're not riding.

 

in addition to this @Marty Backe statistic that is certainly the most accurate, if somebody knows,  can post the links of other euc safe statystics ? (I can't find them  )

[LanghamP]

My recall was somewhat off in regards to specific wheel failures. kS16s looks like a good bet.

 

[duaner]

12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

...I'd say the KS S models are the only wheels atm that can actually be called trustworthy...

I partially disagree.  I think you need to compare wheels ridden similarly.  Comparing a Tesla at 50kph is more dangerous than KingSong 16s at 35kph, the KS is safer.

Comparing them both ridden at 35kph is completely different; the Tesla at "only" 35kph may well be the safer machine.

Edited February 14, 2018 by duaner

[novazeus]

i wanted opinions on safest euc’s not taking into account speed limitations. it would seem injuries related to mechanical failures on a 9bot1s1 at 12.5 mph speed limit would be less that injuries at 30 mph on a fast euc.

i guess by safer euc, is the euc least likely to have a mechanical failure totally beyond the rider’s control. like if the tesla, for example, could be ridden at 15mph, would u consider it as safe as a ks-16s ridden at 15mph. believe it or not, there are people not interested in going faster than 15mph. 15 mph is plenty fast to balance well and slow enough to brake fast enough. for me, if an euc can crank along at 15mph and warn me with tiltback if i’m asking too much, and be reliable, i’d be happy.

[Marty Backe]

26 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i wanted opinions on safest euc’s not taking into account speed limitations. it would seem injuries related to mechanical failures on a 9bot1s1 at 12.5 mph speed limit would be less that injuries at 30 mph on a fast euc.

i guess by safer euc, is the euc least likely to have a mechanical failure totally beyond the rider’s control. like if the tesla, for example, could be ridden at 15mph, would u consider it as safe as a ks-16s ridden at 15mph. believe it or not, there are people not interested in going faster than 15mph. 15 mph is plenty fast to balance well and slow enough to brake fast enough. for me, if an euc can crank along at 15mph and warn me with tiltback if i’m asking too much, and be reliable, i’d be happy.

Frankly, I think the Gotway wheels are very safe when configured for lower tilt-back. Reported failures are due to excessive speeds and high stress conditions (e.g. climbing long steep hills). Barring those situations, Gotway wheels have an abundance of reserve power which equates to safety in my mind.

[US69]

1 hour ago, duaner said:

I partially disagree.  I think you need to compare wheels ridden similarly.  Comparing a Tesla at 50kph is more dangerous than KingSong at 35kph, the KS is safer.

Comparing them both ridden at 35kph is completely different; the Tesla at "only" 35kph may well be the safer machine.

I had the KS18S and the Tesla and BOTH are capable of 50kmh....

And still the KS is at 35kmh and/or 50kmh the safer machine :-) 

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Frankly, I think the Gotway wheels are very safe when configured for lower tilt-back. Reported failures are due to excessive speeds and high stress conditions (e.g. climbing long steep hills). Barring those situations, Gotway wheels have an abundance of reserve power which equates to safety in my mind.

And here i completly disagree!

The Gotways are failing due to their low quality and quality control on.....boards/mosfets/dc converter/axle shims/wires/connectors etc etc.

And especially that we can see in the high failure statistics from ewheels/electroway.ru!

WHEN a Gotway works good it is Ok also at high speeds, its just always the question if it will be......

I can only call out everybody to examine the internals/wires/boards/construction of for example a GW V3s or a KS18S....or GW Tesla between KS16s....thats a difference like night and day....or Silicon hells against fairly engineered construction :-)

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by KingSong69

[Jason McNeil]

34 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Frankly, I think the Gotway wheels are very safe when configured for lower tilt-back. Reported failures are due to excessive speeds and high stress conditions (e.g. climbing long steep hills). Barring those situations, Gotway wheels have an abundance of reserve power which equates to safety in my mind.

Product brand reliability is definitely a point-in-time & model question. I can attest that while King Song has been pretty good with their 16S/18S, but there have been a few recent incidents of sloppy assembly & poor QC result in DoAs from the factory. To a Distributor, getting a Wheel from the factory that does not work is utterly unacceptable, because it's a demonstration of two failures: the first is that there's fault somewhere in the production process; secondly, perhaps more importantly, that the QC was side-stepped. 

One of the cases that illustrates this was with a 18S where the Customer reported he was not able to charge it beyond 58v. We did the logical steps to troubleshoot like sending out a replacement charger, same. He then shipped the Wheel back, I tested the pack, which was fine; then, the charging port, also fine; opened up the fuse junction box to see if anything was mis-wired in there. Finally, I swapped out the board & the Wheel was able to charge. The root cause was that in the 18S, the charging input is now feed into the control-board, where a reverse diode resides, & somewhere in the circuitry it was giving resistance from 67.2v to 58v. When presented with the evidence, King Song claimed to never have seen this problem before. We shipped the Customer out another 18S, which had exactly the same fault!!! Joey trekked up to LA to test charging the remaining 25x 18Ss, all were able to fully charge. So the fact that this particular Customer received two Wheels with the same fault is quite the statistical anomaly. 

In my experience, although Gotway has had a more chequered history of their product development, they have been a lot more responsive in helping their Dealers/Customers with parts. In the above mentioned case, King Song refused to send me any replacement 18S boards, released the half-baked App which cannot be registered the same day & then took the next three weeks off 

One of the topics I hinted at on another thread are that Gotway are working on a new board, they're testing out a MOSFET with a spec of 1000A peak, 300A sustained, this should make it virtually indestructible.

  

Edited February 13, 2018 by Jason McNeil

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I had the KS18S and the Tesla and BOTH are capable of 50kmh....

And still the KS is at 35kmh and/or 50kmh the safer machine :-) 

And here i completly disagree!

The Gotways are failing due to their low quality and quality control on.....boards/mosfets/dc converter/axle shims/wires/connectors etc etc.

And especially that we can see in the high failure statistics from ewheels/electroway.ru!

WHEN a Gotway works good it is Ok also at high speeds, its just always the question if it will be......

I can only call out everybody to examine the internals/wires/boards/construction of for example a GW V3s or a KS18S....or GW Tesla between KS16s....thats a difference like night and day....or Silicon hells against fairly engineered construction :-)

 

I do disagree with you. The picture that you paint of Gotway is very dire. I just don't see it with myself and the multitude of fellow Gotway riders that I ride with.

Yes, there are QC issues, but when it comes to Safety, I'm not seeing people get injured unless they are pushing the limits.

[Marty Backe]

8 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Product brand reliability is definitely a point-in-time & model question. I can attest that while King Song has been pretty good with their 16S/18S, but there have been a few recent incidents of sloppy assembly & poor QC result in DoAs from the factory. To a Distributor, getting a Wheel from the factory that does not work is utterly unacceptable, because it's a demonstration of two failures: the first is that there's fault somewhere in the production process; secondly, perhaps more importantly, that the QC was side-stepped. 

One of the cases that illustrates this was with a 18S where the Customer reported he was not able to charge it beyond 58v. We did the logical steps to troubleshoot like sending out a replacement charger, same. He then shipped the Wheel back, I tested the pack, which was fine; then, the charging port, also fine; opened up the fuse junction box to see if anything was mis-wired in there. Finally, I swapped out the board & the Wheel was able to charge. The root cause was that in the 18S, the charging input is now feed into the control-board, where a reverse diode resides, & somewhere in the circuitry it was giving resistance from 67.2v to 58v. When presented with the evidence, King Song claimed to never have seen this problem before. We shipped the Customer out another 18S, which had exactly the same fault!!! Joey trekked up to LA to test charging the remaining 25x 18Ss, which were all able to fully charge. So the fact that this particular Customer received two Wheels with the same fault is quite the statistical anomaly. 

In my experience, although Gotway has had a more chequered history of their product development, they have been a lot more responsive in helping their Dealers/Customers with parts. In the above mentioned case, King Song refused to send me any replacement 18S boards, released the half-baked App which cannot be registered the same day & then took the next three weeks off 

  

Nothing like a dose of reality (i.e. KingSong not perfect).

Testing 25-wheels to see if they can fully charge sounds painful. Poor Joey 

Thanks for the story.

[novazeus]

On 2/12/2018 at 9:28 PM, Marty Backe said:

The one you're not riding.

not helpful but entirely true. we are all kindred spirits when we push aside common sense and get on a wheel so an ongoing topic of safest wheel, not necessarily the best quality control, although u would think they would go hand in hand, is a big deal, to me at least.i mean there are only a handful of top tier euc’s that would be considered. segway, inmotion/solo, gotway, kingsong, ips, rockwheel. did i miss any. it’s not ford/chevy thing. it’s more like, if u ride an euc within it’s limits and urs, which euc it liable to screw up more frequently causing distrust or injury. even though @Jason McNeil customer couldn’t get a full charge, at least he knew that before riding it. after this evenings practice with a few laps on the s2, ks-16s and the ks-18s, i’m really leaning towards the ks-18s as my favorite. i could go faster, i think, but i hit i’m sure the highest speed of the evening and that was 20kph on the ks-18s, so segway might be on to something with their speed limit on the s1. so i’m riding at 15 to 20kph. more 15kph and a spurt of 20. so here’s a pic of my fav for @Marty Backe because i love my padding and i’ll never remove it on my ks-18s. makes it easy to store and toss in the truck. 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by novazeus

[steve454]

I agree with you, the S1 has the safest speed before tiltback and warning beeps.  I wish the E+ had a 12-13 mph tiltback setting.  Mine has gone up to 15 mph a couple times and it felt too fast to fall from if it cut out, even though it never has before.  The only two times the E+ gave out on me were when I stopped quickly and tried to go in reverse and there was not enough power to do it.

I would think that of all your wheels, the Kingsong would be the safest, because of the more powerful motor and much larger battery, especially for short range rides.  A Gotway with a larger battery might be safest of all, but for short rides would be an extra expense just for the batteries.

The padding on the Kingsong looks very comfortable and like it would not hurt much if it hit you.

[novazeus]

31 minutes ago, steve454 said:

The padding on the Kingsong looks very comfortable and like it would not hurt much if it hit you.

it is. i did the ks16s the same but those side pads on the ks-16s hit my boney ankles right on the bottom edge. if i drop either of them it’s like dropping a marshmellow.not scary at all. i practice a lot of stepping off, unintentionally..