EUC’s and rhe police . US laws and ordinances.

[Stan Onymous]

I am sure there is a head of the bicycle department for the Mass DOT. Get in touch with them and buy them lunch and bend their ear. It may just work.

[Steef Klonoa]

@Stan Onymous

Ehhh, as much as I like that idea, Massachusetts isn't quite so progressive when it comes to transportation laws/regulations. It might be better to keep the issue out of the spotlight for now. I did find our contact for the state though. 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Steef Klonoa

[Ruslan]

 

If I didn't miss this information on the forum, maybe someone will find it useful.

 

Source

 

"§ 85.1703 Definition of motor vehicle.

(a) For the purpose of determining the applicability of section 216(2), a vehicle which is self-propelled and capable of transporting a person orpersons or any material or any permanently or temporarily affixed apparatus shall be deemed a motor vehicle, unless any one or more of the criteria set forth below are met, in which case the vehicle shall be deemed not a motor vehicle:

(1) The vehicle cannot exceed a maximum speed of 25 miles per hour over level, paved surfaces; or

(2) The vehicle lacks features customarily associated with safe and practical street or highway use, such features including, but not being limited to, a reverse gear (except in the case of motorcycles), a differential, or safety features required by stateand/or federal law; or

(3) The vehicle exhibits features which render its use on a street or highway unsafe, impractical, or highly unlikely, such features including, but not being limited to, tracked road contact means, an inordinate size, or features ordinarily associated with military combat or tactical vehicles such as armor and/or weaponry."

According to (a) an euc is a motorized vehicle, but criteria (1) says "The vehicle cannot exceed a maximum speed of 25 miles per hour over level". It makes my ks 16s legal on those bike trails. 

Also once I saw the police car on the bike trail patrolling. They didn't say anything to me when I was riding my ks16s.

[Thai-lad]

Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices

In recent years, some people with mobility disabilities have begun using less traditional mobility devices such as golf cars or Segways^®. These devices are called "other power-driven mobility device" (OPDMD) in the rule. OPDMD is defined in the new rules as "any mobility device powered by batteries, fuel, or other engines… that is used by individuals with mobility disabilities for the purpose of locomotion, including golf cars, electronic personal assistance mobility devices… such as the Segway^® PT, or any mobility device designed to operate in areas without defined pedestrian routes, but that is not a wheelchair". When an OPDMD is being used by a person with a mobility disability, different rules apply under the ADA than when it is being used by a person without a disability

Choice of Device

People with disabilities have the right to choose whatever mobility device best suits their needs. 

 

This comes from the DoJ...

 

U.S. Department of Justice
Civil Rights Division
Disability Rights Section

Wheelchairs, Mobility Aids, 
and Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices

 

The Department of Justice published revised final regulations implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) for title II (State and local government services) and title III (public accommodations and commercial facilities) on September 15, 2010, in the Federal Register.

 

So if you can legitimately claim to have a mobility impairment, you can take your EUC anywhere a wheelchair is allowed.  It helps of course to have proof of that disability.  But it is not a legal requirement.

[Elder Meat]

On 11/10/2018 at 8:21 PM, Ruslan said:

According to (a) an euc is a motorized vehicle, but criteria (1) says "The vehicle cannot exceed a maximum speed of 25 miles per hour over level". It makes my ks 16s legal on those bike trails. 

Also once I saw the police car on the bike trail patrolling. They didn't say anything to me when I was riding my ks16s.

There's federal (which you cited) and state law. For example CA vehicle code 415 defines it differently:

(a) A “motor vehicle” is a vehicle that is self-propelled.
(b) “Motor vehicle” does not include a self-propelled wheelchair, motorized tricycle, or motorized quadricycle, if operated by a person who, by reason of physical disability, is otherwise unable to move about as a pedestrian.
 

Regarding police enforcement, just because one officer didn't say anything means nothing. Maybe they were responding to another call and wanted to stop you but couldn't. Maybe they were just cruising around and didn't care you were breaking the law. Or maybe you weren't breaking the law at all. We have no idea.

[Steef Klonoa]

@Elder Meat I'll second that. I've been riding almost a month now, have crossed paths with at least 20 officers, both on foot and in their cruisers. None of them have even asked what it is. Still, we have no idea it is a gray area. I have yet to run into another rider while I'm out on the wheel, they're so rare most people don't know what they are yet.

[Steven D Wheeler]

In Chicago the North Branch Trails have a rule where an electric anything can't go over 20MPH.

Now we all know most Gotways can go faster but it is assumed that all EUC's then would be allowed.

I've never had a cop tell me I shouldn't be on the trails.

I have had a few bicyclists and dog walkers tell me "No motorized vehicles!!!"

aww geez, if they only knew.

[Thai-lad]

7 hours ago, Elder Meat said:

There's federal (which you cited) and state law. For example CA vehicle code 415 defines it differently:

(a) A “motor vehicle” is a vehicle that is self-propelled.
(b) “Motor vehicle” does not include a self-propelled wheelchair, motorized tricycle, or motorized quadricycle, if operated by a person who, by reason of physical disability, is otherwise unable to move about as a pedestrian.
 

Regarding police enforcement, just because one officer didn't say anything means nothing. Maybe they were responding to another call and wanted to stop you but couldn't. Maybe they were just cruising around and didn't care you were breaking the law. Or maybe you weren't breaking the law at all. We have no idea.

While federal rules will usually over ride state and local ones, since they have accepted money from the federal government in return, it may take a court challenge to force state or local compliance. 

This is costly and unlikely for individuals to pursue, but the same issues apply to electric scooters.  And the companies behind them have the resources to pursue ADA compliancy.  Which I see as the Trojan horse for all PEV legislation, as I don't think LEP will want to spend the resources to separate out those whose disability allows the activity, vs those simply doing it for fun or convenience.  Especially as anyone can claim disability and the onus is on LEP to prove they have reasonable grounds to believe otherwise.

[Andy Crossett]

Like others have stated, I think the best course of action is for the EUC manufacturers (especially Ninebot who's Segway acquisition was responsible for the heavy lifting of enacting the original definition of electric personal assistive mobility device) to lobby for a change in definition to "one wheel or two nontandem wheel" or to remove the number of wheels entirely from the definition.   

This would address most of the concerns, other than speeds greater than 20 mph, which most riders probably do not regularly exceed. 

And this would allow innovation to continue.  

I live in downtown St. Louis.  Missouri has pretty much the model legislation that was pushed originally by Segway.   Missouri does allow cities to enact their own more restrictive requirements.   I've not seen this done.   However there are certain areas (City Garden) which do not allow Segway or Lime Scooter.  There was issue with newly renovated Kiener Plaza having tire marks from either or both Lime or Bird Scooters.  I think they are now prohibiting these scooters in that plaza due to the marking up of the paving stones.   

The Gateway Arch is part of National Park Service.   They will only allow Segway, Segway Mini Pro or Scooters if the person can prove an actual disability (ADA).  I have seen the Lime and Bird scooters there.   I ride my MSuperX on the bike path within the Gateway Arch grounds only on the perimeter of the park, to get to the riverfront trail.   

Edited November 21, 2018 by Andy Crossett

[RockyTop]

On 11/12/2018 at 1:00 PM, Elder Meat said:

There's federal (which you cited) and state law. For example CA vehicle code 415 defines it differently:

(a) A “motor vehicle” is a vehicle that is self-propelled.
(b) “Motor vehicle” does not include a self-propelled wheelchair, motorized tricycle, or motorized quadricycle, if operated by a person who, by reason of physical disability, is otherwise unable to move about as a pedestrian.
 

Regarding police enforcement, just because one officer didn't say anything means nothing. Maybe they were responding to another call and wanted to stop you but couldn't. Maybe they were just cruising around and didn't care you were breaking the law. Or maybe you weren't breaking the law at all. We have no idea.

“Motored vehicle” Well ? In my state it is motored, but it is not a vehicle. Look up the definition of vehicle. Two wheels of more with a speed of 25 mph+. That said, we have a clause that makes them fall into the same category as a bicycle. To restrict them in a way that you would not restrict a bicycle is illegal. ( thanks to Segway)

I still get the occasional “ No motorized vehicles!” From joggers. For the most part joggers don’t seem to be a very happy bunch. 

[Andy Crossett]

14 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

“Motored vehicle” Well ? In my state it is motored, but it is not a vehicle. Look up the definition of vehicle. Two wheels of more with a speed of 25 mph+. That said, we have a clause that makes them fall into the same category as a bicycle. To restrict them in a way that you would not restrict a bicycle is illegal. ( thanks to Segway)

I still get the occasional “ No motorized vehicles!” From joggers. For the most part joggers don’t seem to be a very happy bunch. 

Runners don't like to be called "Joggers."   But you are right!  Aside from the one wheel versus two wheel definition, an EUC falls under the Segway definition, as long as speed is kept 20 mph or less.

[LanghamP]

This is interesting; in many cities notably Toronto bicycles that have a smaller wheel size are allowed on sidewalks. Toronto's max wheel size is 24 inches while other cities seem to range from 20 to 24 inches.

[RockyTop]

2 hours ago, Andy Crossett said:

Runners don't like to be called "Joggers." 

 If they traveled faster I would call them runners. 6 mph is jogging.

I can see it now. Five years from now, I end up in court for using the “J” word.  

P.S. I have no less than 100 marathon metals on my wall............ They belong to my wife and daughter but it is my wall. 

[Flying W]

In the last 3 or so months since I started commuting I've talked to 3 LEOs. One followed me home to ask what it was, how hard to learn etc, I sent him here and to ewheels to learn more amd but one. I rolled up to one to ask about a trail closure, he didnt say anything about it just told me when the trail should open back up. The 3rd one was like the 1st, very curious and interested. He got out of the car took a closer look. I offered to let him try it but he didnt take the offer. 

I dont think there is too much to worry about unless these things get so inexpensive that any teenager can get one and do 30mph down the sidewalk until they crash and the wheel becomes a weapon. I know if I was 14yrs old and get around the city that fast for 300 bucks or so I would have been hurt or in trouble...most likely both. 

I think the percieved steep learning curve is keeping these a novelty for now so they are way under the radar for law enforcement. At least around where I live halfway between LA and San Diego. 

[Dingfelder]

The tough learning curve may be what saves the hobby from extinction.

[Flying W]

2 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

The tough learning curve may be what saves the hobby from extinction.

I hope we can find that balance of enough sales to keep innovating but not enough in any one place to get the ban hammer. 

[LanghamP]

Gosh, I wonder if 3500 people being killed each day in the US by drivers is enough to ban autos from the streets? There does seem to be rudimentary licensing for drivers and some allowance to repair damages (insurance), but I guess eScooters and EUCs are dangerous enough to be outright banned from many cities.

[Elder Meat]

10 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Gosh, I wonder if 3500 people being killed each day in the US by drivers is enough to ban autos from the streets? 

Obviously not. In 2016 about 3.22 trillion miles were driven in the US. Call that one fatality per 94.7 million miles. In 2005 about 784 cyclists died over roughly 21 billion miles ridden. That's one fatality per 26.7 million miles. I'm pretty sure EUC fatalities per mile are much higher.

[Mono]

11 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Gosh, I wonder if 3500 people being killed each day in the US by drivers is enough to ban autos from the streets?

Wikipedia says 37,000 deaths in 2017, which makes in my books 100 fatalities each day.

44 minutes ago, Elder Meat said:

In 2016 about 3.22 trillion miles were driven in the US. Call that one fatality per 94.7 million miles. In 2005 about 784 cyclists died over roughly 21 billion miles ridden. That's one fatality per 26.7 million miles.

The comparison is of course in some way unfair, as cyclists are killed in about 80-90% by cars.

44 minutes ago, Elder Meat said:

I'm pretty sure EUC fatalities per mile are much higher.

What do you mean by "much" and how could you be so sure? Do you have any data of the speed distribution in EUC usage?

[LanghamP]

43 minutes ago, Mono said:

Wikipedia says 37,000 deaths in 2017, which makes in my books 100 fatalities each day.

The comparison is of course in some way unfair, as cyclists are killed in about 80-90% by cars.

What do you mean by "much" and how could you be so sure? Do you have any data of the speed distribution in EUC usage?

Whoops, my bad, I was being inexcusably negligent in my claim and calculation.

I did notice that 3200 people are killed each day by automobiles worldwide, and I think I pulled that [out of my ass] instead of the correct and appropriate figure.

I'm mortified.

Has anyone heard of an EUC death caused by an EUC failure or rider error? I have read of two Bird and Lime eScooter deaths, but both were run over by autos. It's somewhat like asking how dangerous being a pedestrian is, as swimming with the sharks is pretty dangerous.

 

 

[.....]

On 2/1/2018 at 7:44 PM, Scott Henley said:

So I’ve beem wondering a lot lately about the legality of EUC usage here in the states. I’ve seen the post about them cracking down in London and heard that China basically has an all out ban on them in public areas so it makes me wonder about the good’ol USA. 

I am aware of the law protecting Segways , granting them permission to be ridden pretty much anywhere an electric wheelchair can go and basically considering them to be “pedestrians “. I also know that the reason Segway-Ninebot was able to do this is because they limited the speed too speed of most of their products to 12.5mph (roughly as fast as a human being would sprint ) .So obviously most EUC’s wouldn’t technically fall in this category.

I am the only person with an EUC in my town ...and as far as I know the only one in about 100miles . I commute to and from work everyday and the police office is 2 blocks from my house . Today I stared going and riding around the back parking lot of the PD/FD (they have cones and stuff that are fun to zig-zag through ?) and have had really positive responses from them. Even passed out my 2 remaining Ewheels business cards to the officers tonight since they seemed really interested in the wheel . Offered to let them try it out but they said they couldn’t because they were on duty . 

So with that all said I’m just wondering how law enforcement in other areas of the county react .

Here's MY take on it, tho Im somewhat reckless with my approach. I live straddling the TN/NC, so I see both at times. Most of these laws are county by county as the states out here in the nc/tn area are a little slow and underfunded. SO far, I think there is very little or no laws concerning the euc in particular. I do think that they are being lumped in with the bicycle and scooter crowd. Since they are not registered, I dont think they fall into the moped and motorcycle crowd. Even tho there may be no law on the books, the officers tend to write their own laws for you to sort out in court later. So far, the county police and volunteer fire dept and sheriff AND highway patrol, have seen me ride around. Granted, I was in a parking lot for most of these times, I was still met with that look of wtf is that? I also got asked. I think they view this as a crazy device, but then immediately lump it into bicycles. Now, would I ride down a busy highway and impede traffic? WOuld I be wreckless and disrupt the safety of pedestrians? Would I try to ride it in FEDERAL PARKS? The answer is NO! Just assume that you are not allowed in federal parks, unless stated otherwise. I would TRY to ride on designated bike paths, but if motorized vehicle signs are up, I may not. We all know that tn/nc dont f**k around when it comes to the national parks. IN the end, I treat my euc as I would a bicycle. When on the street, try to act like a car and obey traffic law, but forgo the assumption you get a lane of your own. On the sidewalk, ride as if i were a pedestrian myself. No helmet laws or regs on a bike out here. I would also be leery of any motorized vehicle signs, as they obvioulsy had an issue, or wouldnt put them up in the first place. County laws are NILL for this, I would bet money on it. CIty ordinances... i dunno. The easiest way to find out is to ride until a cop tells you not to. Just like skating where you shouldnt, if a cop tells you NO, you dont ask why or argue. Ignorance is no excuse, but in this case... you and they might both be ignorant, and a little courtesy will be in your favor. When I first moved to NC, i KNEW there were motorcycle helmet laws. HOwever, as a new resident, I decided to ride around until an officer made it perfectly clear to me. That lasted 3 weeks. A polite conversation and me being completely submissive, was all it cost me to know for sure. A friend of mine (sport bikers we were), told me that no matter how fast youre going, if you see a cop, sit upright and try to appear as if you're up to no harm. If you act right and look like you are just riding leisurely, you will be less likely to draw the wrath. Same with EUC... if you see a cop, quit hot dogging, relax, smile and ride like you're idling along without a care in the world. I'm gna ride and try like hell to not be a nuisance and hopefully this entire EUC thing will go unnoticed for as long as I want to do it. God Bless TN and NC rural communities!

Edited February 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Mike Petrogeorge]

I want put this out there; and, I hoping I don't sound like I am lecturing you. But this is important.

In San Diego, there seems to be a war on between the politicians and rental scooters, which makes me pause and think about the EUC. The reason for the war is because this is a tourist town and the 20 somethings jump on the scooters, drunk and without a helmet only to crash into cars and light pools. Sadly, some have been killed. The 20 somethings don't give a crap because they don't live here. They are not courteous to pedestrians,  they park the devices anywhere which upsets (and for good reasons) the wheelchair crowd. Leaving the scooters around only gets the old bitties trolling downtown to the city council meetings to shout "No scooters".

As an EUC rider, I have made it my mission to be courteous to pedestrians, obey the traffic laws, and stay off the sidewalks (when there is a bike lane available and I am not in a dangerous position). I am nice to the cops and try to educate them on the EUC. I point out that EUC riders pay for their own wheels and they are more than likely (not always) gonna play by the rules. Most riders I know wear their safety gear and are not gonna park their unit in the middle of the sidewalk.

So, unless you want the old bitties trolling your city council meetings saying "ban all personal devices" I suggest you play by the rules as best you can and don't be a scooter douche. 

In this town there is currently a mayoral campaign going on and one of the candidates is on the 'ban the scooters' bandwagon. I can say that she did not get my vote because I am afraid she will come after my wheel. So, once again, don't be a scooter dick. Be courteous out there.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE
For clarity

[Daley1]

Had a middle aged man 12 months ago crash a scooter(Lime) and died from a head injury.The media wanted to ban all scooters but it didnt get much traction .I see more death and injury from standing height falls whilst walking,  than scooters or bikes .No ones called for a ban on walking yet!The local pedestrian lobby group are up in arms with the cyclists whom they share walking tails with because they were scaring pedestrians going past at 20kmh on radar guns!.Motorists are hating on cyclists because they ride 2 abreast and hold up traffic.Cyclist give me a mouthful when they are riding in a group but mostly get a thumbs up when riding singularly.Everyone gets a little wave as i gently coast on buy and dont buy into their hate and sense of entitlement.

[vasuvius]

Here in NJ, a few miles outside of NYC, most people just turn to look. Most don't even notice. Police officers look but don't think there's any issue as long as I follow basic rules of the road and safety - STOP signs, traffic lights etc. I don't ride on the sidewalk or against the traffic. I ride like when I'm riding my roadbike, on the correct side of the road and to the edge close to the curb. When safety requires it, I take the entire lane with appropriate hand signals. No car driver has gotten upset yet.

I commute to the train. At the office end, there are signs at Hoboken station (NJ) prohibiting bicycles. Police officers have told me a couple times that all personal vehicles are prohibited. I don't argue with them. I just get off and walk it for a couple hundred yards till I'm at the end of the station walkway.

Laws or not, the better rule is to listen to police officers in the US.