New Inmotion V10 / V10F

[MBIKER_SURFER]

4 minutes ago, em1barns said:

What is really disappointing is that cooling system was in their marketing material:

Active Cooling System

Quality MOSFETs + robust cooling system means critical components are always there to back you up

Me too. In fact, cooling can't be a real problem. Just double the number of MOSFET and they won't get that hot.

Again - it is like @Marcglider said : 'It's always about "MONEY" (quality, market share, profit, etc) '

[Harold Farrenkopf]

4 minutes ago, em1barns said:

What is really disappointing is that cooling system was in their marketing material:

Active Cooling System

Quality MOSFETs + robust cooling system means critical components are always there to back you up

Yes, this was a selling feature that sold me. I looked at the video breakdown of the wheel and where the heat sink is with relation to the wheel. If you put rubber type fins in the wheel grove all around the wheel where the tube filler is in line with the radial direction from the axle, that would act like a fan blade pushing air over the heat sink. Has to be a rubber like material so that it could bend to avoid rocks/objects jamming in the wheel. This could easily be installed in sections without disassembly with a double sided tape holding it in the grove or a caulking sealant. The rotation of the wheel would be the fan. The tire groves do similar but the heat sink is on the side of the motor position/grove of wheel. Please send me $ for this idea/invention/cure!  PS, I'm an engineer!

[soulson]

Doubling the number of power transistors will not reduce the heat output of the inverter, although it may reduce the temperature of each individual transistor. Since they're all attached to the same (presumably) small heatsink, changing the heatsink is probably going to be more effective than changing the inverter topology in this case.

[Harold Farrenkopf]

AND maybe just some wheels are overheating because the heatsink may have a coating of dirt from using it offroad  and mud??????

 

[Harold Farrenkopf]

2 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Yes, this was a selling feature that sold me. I looked at the video breakdown of the wheel and where the heat sink is with relation to the wheel. If you put rubber type fins in the wheel grove all around the wheel where the tube filler is in line with the radial direction from the axle, that would act like a fan blade pushing air over the heat sink. Has to be a rubber like material so that it could bend to avoid rocks/objects jamming in the wheel. This could easily be installed in sections without disassembly with a double sided tape holding it in the grove or a caulking sealant. The rotation of the wheel would be the fan. The tire groves do similar but the heat sink is on the side of the motor position/grove of wheel. Please send me $ for this idea/invention/cure!  PS, I'm an engineer!

Make the wheel work as the fan!.

[Marcglider]

8 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

Yes. This could be an outright false claim and that is the easy (and likely first) conclusion people will draw, however, the other way of looking at that claim is that their confidence in the cooling hardware adds weight to to the possibility that the internals are being subjected to an artificially highy amount of heat from a possible poor drive algorithm.

This is the stuff I hate seeing written, if it is true or not we wont know... I suppose in the long run it will get the attention of the "decision makers" and they can change their  "modus operandi"

[Fastmike]

56 minutes ago, Marcglider said:

ABSOLUTELY... good luck with that though... It's always about "MONEY" (quality, market share, profit, etc) 

Yep, but if that end to be a design flow, having done that will have been a big 'short term view' mistake that will cost InMotion much more in term of sells but also degraded image that will be difficult to gain back. That to be the case, the only way for them to catch back will be via an expensive call back program...

Edited July 11, 2018 by Fastmike

[Fastmike]

7 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Make the wheel work as the fan!.

I believe that to be the case! If you look at the pictures, the heatsink looks to be cold out by the wheel itself, when the fan is inside the case to allow a 'better' air circulation (in the limited space there...)

[Harold Farrenkopf]

7 minutes ago, Fastmike said:

I believe that to be the case! If you look at the pictures, the heatsink looks to be cold out by the wheel itself, when the fan is inside the case to allow a 'better' air circulation (in the limited space there...)

Do this with rubber molded fins all around the wheel made in multiple  sections molded to fit the grove.

[Fastmike]

Will be more efficient for sure! ?

[Marcglider]

19 minutes ago, Fastmike said:

Yep, but if that end to be a design flow, having done that will have been a big 'short view' mistake that will cost InMotion much more in term of sells but also degraded image that will be difficult to gain back. That to be the case, the only way for them to catch back will be via an expensive call back program...

EXACTLY, which is why the "decision makers" need to make sure their products are RIGHT before releasing... ALL OF THEM

[WARPed1701D]

I'd like to see consumption statistics for a V10 vs another similarly spec'ed wheel ridden but the same rider, in the same manner, on the same terrain/route, under similar conditions. All wheels generally consume a very similar amount of power when external conditions are the same. If the V10 showed significantly higher consumption it would suggest greater heat losses that are potentially the result of a poor firmware design (lots of short burst high current flows). If consumption were the same or close then weight would be on the consideration that heat output is similar to other wheels but the V10 heatsink is underspecified or poorly designed.

[Stan Onymous]

I love all the Chinese expert economists opining on the V10F fault with the Overload. If there is a Money consideration to the vehicles, it is the Cheapskate riders like myself who dont want to pay too much for a vehicle, that is the biggest Money consideration for them.

There is always a Melting Pot problem when doing the Chinese to English business decision explanations. So far we have only gotten a result on the Overload as it refers to the Algorithm from the firmware. To be sure there is a lot of room to dial down the power in a different way than relying on speed only. The V10F never lost power at all before the Overload tiltback, so maybe dialing back the power during a climb or allowing for spikes for less than three seconds and then dialing back under 20 mph power surges when going uphill.

In cars, there were vacuum adjusted timing chains that would account for this power and adjust the timing to the engine accordingly. With more power comes more needed adjustments. This is also a never ending concern for the Motor manufacturers too. Too much flux degrades the metal, so the race for a more efficient motor is an ever progressing march along with the firmware to help direct that power.

I have faith in InMotion to meet this challenge, or account for their mistakes. I do appreciate getting a chance to help make our sporting activity safer and more bitchin for all tho. ?

[Zeno74]

Sorry guys but tell me if I'm wrong, a wheel has 2 major sources of power consumption, one is the motor and the other are the gyroscopes to keep us balanced.

Now the motor needs power to accelerate, to climb hills etc, the gyros need more power when the terrain is rough or when we push hard on the pedals, in my opinion bigger gyroscopes are great because guarantee a better stability in case we ride into holes or bumps, I'd be happy to have bigger gyros, even if very likely they consume more energy.

At the end, when we know how many kWH we use per kilometer that we ride, do we know how many are used by the motor and how many by the gyros? 

[Harold Farrenkopf]

1 minute ago, Zeno74 said:

Sorry guys but tell me if I'm wrong, a wheel has 2 major sources of power consumption, one is the motor and the other are the gyroscopes to keep us balanced.

Now the motor needs power to accelerate, to climb hills etc, the gyros need more power when the terrain is rough or when we push hard on the pedals, in my opinion bigger gyroscopes are great because guarantee a better stability in case we ride into holes or bumps, I'd be happy to have bigger gyros, even if very likely they consume more energy.

At the end, when we know how many kWH we use per kilometer that we ride, do we know how many are used by the motor and how many by the gyros? 

There are no gyroscopes in these wheels. There is a motor and sensors that control the tilt.

 

[Zeno74]

How can it be?

how can we keep the balance forward backward? If you have only sensors you have the signal of the inclination but here you need also some power to balance us...

[Harold Farrenkopf]

We need to know that the problem is over temperature of the heatsink/switching devices. If that is the problem than the fins on the wheel will help cool the heatsink. The heatsink must also be clean to dissipate the heat. So people that are experiencing the problem should look inside with a flashlight and a endoscope video camera to see the heatsink. The endoscopes are cheap on ebay.

[Harold Farrenkopf]

3 minutes ago, Zeno74 said:

How can it be?

how can we keep the balance forward backward? If you have only sensors you have the signal of the inclination but here you need also some power to balance us...

You don't need a physical gyro to do that. There are electronic sensors that do it without much power consumption. The wheel motor and the power control to the motor are the major heat generating devices.

[Stan Onymous]

4 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

You don't need a physical gyro to do that. There are electronic sensors that do it without much power consumption. The wheel motor and the power control to the motor are the major heat generating devices.

But his theory on the power is apt. There are two major sources of power consumption and they are balance and propulsion. An electric bike has none of the TDC sensor balancing, and the batteries have better distance ratings.

While going uphill the lean angle is exaggerated on the TDC sensors, switching some of that power to keep the vehicle upright while going uphill. Lets say the hill is 20° and the rider is leaning at 10° or more to go uphill. That is a lean of 30° sustained straining the motor to keep the rider upright. The question for the firmware engineers is, what is the balance of Power propulsion and power to keep the rider upright.

[novazeus]

i can’t/won’t ride like this guy but he review is what i would expect it to be. 

so the wheel fits me great.

 

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, soulson said:

Doubling the number of power transistors will not reduce the heat output of the inverter, although it may reduce the temperature of each individual transistor. Since they're all attached to the same (presumably) small heatsink, changing the heatsink is probably going to be more effective than changing the inverter topology in this case.

When Gotway went from 6 to 12 MOSFETs, their wheels stopped overheating. So it worked for their design.

[RichieV]

12 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

But his theory on the power is apt. There are two major sources of power consumption and they are balance and propulsion. An electric bike has none of the TDC sensor balancing, and the batteries have better distance ratings.

While going uphill the lean angle is exaggerated on the TDC sensors, switching some of that power to keep the vehicle upright while going uphill. Lets say the hill is 20° and the rider is leaning at 10° or more to go uphill. That is a lean of 30° sustained straining the motor to keep the rider upright. The question for the firmware engineers is, what is the balance of Power propulsion and power to keep the rider upright.

Aren't they one and the same?  Isn't propulsion merely the effect of the rider throwing the wheel off balance and the motor applying more power to try to keep up?

Edited July 11, 2018 by RichieV
grammar

[Stan Onymous]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

When Gotway went from 6 to 12 MOSFETs, their wheels stopped overheating. So it worked for their design.

IPS did a similar tactic, but no one noticed. It worked very well for their Tank 350 which surprisingly climbed every steep hill around me like a kingsong or an mten3. 

This would mean a new control board, and I do believe there are enough tinkerers around to help the less technical with these solutions should it be, harumph, needed, gulp.?

[Harold Farrenkopf]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

When Gotway went from 6 to 12 MOSFETs, their wheels stopped overheating. So it worked for their design.

More likely the size of the heat sink increased because of the requirement of more space for mounting the MOSFETS.

[Harold Farrenkopf]

Just now, Harold Farrenkopf said:

More likely the size of the heat sink increased because of the requirement of more space for mounting the MOSFETS.

Unless the MOSFETS were not powerful enough to switch the current. Not up to date on that tech but the MOSFET  device can be designed for the current requirements without having to double up on them. Or maybe it was a cost thing.