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New Inmotion V10 / V10F


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On 8/11/2018 at 9:28 AM, maltocs said:

INMOTION V10F v2.2.8 and WHEELLOG 2.0.15

Went for a ride today in my test hill (80F air temp 200lb rider, Classic Mode). Specifically wanted to test OVERLOADING while monitoring Wheellog temperatures. At one point, Bob from InMotion mentioned heatsink temps is what causes overloads and that number can be "scary." I wanted to see what scary is. I rode today with the mission to overload the wheel. I was riding fast uphills often standing on my toes to push it faster. 

I took a readings from BOTH the InMotion App and Wheellog. There has been some discussion on the Wheellog Android thread about how Wheellog probably has a more accurate Battery reading. This test assumes the Wheellog "System Temp" is the heatsink temp. 

- I took the first reading about a half mile into the ride as I forgot to take it when I started.

- I took a reading at the top of the hill. I took the gradual incline on the way up about a mile to the top, all uphill, no overheat.

- I did an extremely steep short hill that this wheel never makes it up, I knew it would overload. The System Temp hit 100F before it overloaded

- On the ride home, did a moderately steep mile long hill. When I was getting to the top, i was on my toes getting it to go faster when it overloaded at very low temps. I checked wheel log and it was clocking over 2200W for about 10s. Possibly this is the reason for overload??

Bottom line is 100C on the heatsinks IS scary. That's boiling temp. If in fact 100C is what the OVERLOAD trigger is, there is NO firmware that can fix this, the mosfets simply get too hot. I did notice that as I monitored the temperatures after the overloads, the temps drop FAST, very fast. I'm talking 15C in about a minute. This explains why I can just cycle the power and i'm good to go again. 

AND THIS CONCLUDES the testing of my V10F on hills. Now time to enjoy my MCM5. :) (Wheellog logs and app screenshots available upon request)

Screen Shot 2018-08-10 at 10.34.11 PM.png

 

Well.. The numbers do not look good, actually FETs can survive up to 170C, but it is for FETs themselves, temperature of heatsink (measured) will be lower 

I can advise using current and temperature alarms in WheelLog.. Something like 80-90C temp alarm and about 25amps for current (2200w/84v=26A)

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8 hours ago, Demargon said:

Reading the comments about overloading and wather issues I need to answer them: they are someone's who don't have any those problems

Awesome views and fun riding. That really is the thing. For those of us under 75kg it will be a Fantastic Wheel the majority of the time.

I love the way you wash your vehicles, and seeing how you do beach riding seems necessary too. That was all so much fun to watch.

I took mine on a ride up the Hollywood hills last night and along the L.A. river and across a couple of sprinkler puddles with no warnings. :thumbup:

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11 hours ago, Demargon said:

Reading the comments about overloading and wather issues I need to answer them: they are someone's who don't have any those problems

If that isn't enough I do several times this sand and salty water test at different speeds without problems

 

hopefully someday Bob and i will be able to ride on a beach and i was wondering how to wash them afterwards, so thank you for that. 

my major concern would be the axle bearings. never having opened up a wheel and hoping i never do, i’m assuming the bearingface is exposed. having been a daily long distance inline skater in my previous life and doing constant bearing cleaning and re-lubricating, i’d never skate when there was moisture around. i was so anal about my bearings because if one of the twenty weren’t 100% , i could tell.

looking at this tear down video and i think i’ve seen pictures elsewhere, it looked like inmotion did a prety good job of waterproofing but evidently they have found a weak link. as a home building contractor, i can appreciate that water finding a hole does happen. me on the other hand, sometimes found it very difficult to find it.

i used this stuff on my boat, jet sk, sailboat, trailers etc and it seems to work pretty good.

https://www.amazon.com/Salt-SA32-S-Away-32oz-Concentrate/dp/B00144EOLC

i was thinking last night i should slim down. no wonder y’all call us fat americans. i was cutting myself some slack being a cancer survivor but seeing ur video gave me an incentive to drop some weight. i’ll never be able to grow my hair that long. seems like it just breaks and i shed like Bob. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, dmethvin said:

Engineers are strange, sometimes it becomes a contest to see how cheaply you can make something. I worked a General Electric in the factory automation group years ago, we made stuff that sold in the low thousands of total units but high thousands of cost. The hardware guys there had been working in the appliance division before this gig and had that "If we sell 10 million can openers and can save 50 cents on each one, that's 5 million dollars" attitude. The thing is, none of our products sold at a volume where pinching pennies matters. It wouldn't surprise me if the hardware EUC guys are the same, they're cutting costs where it doesn't matter much because of low volumes, and if anything comes back to bite you because of reliability issues.

ge made good household appliances back in the day of my homebuilding. bought samsung for another project fixing up a house and they were awful.

yaay for ‘merica.

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The problem with water damage is that it may take a long time to show up as an actual issue. At which time the mess might be way beyond reasonable repair. Or crash the rider. Or even cause the battery to short. We just don’t know yet. So riding thru a sprinkler seemingly without issues might be far from that.

I’d listen to the manufacturer warnings.

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9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The problem with water damage is that it may take a long time to show up as an actual issue. At which time the mess might be way beyond reasonable repair. Or crash the rider. Or even cause the battery to short. We just don’t know yet. So riding thru a sprinkler seemingly without issues might be far from that.

I’d listen to the manufacturer warnings.

yeah definitely. 

i’d like guidance from the manufacturers about cleaning and maintenance because around october i’m gonna be getting cowshit all over my bigger wheels.

i mean nowadays it is so easy to communicate with ur customers using youtube. a phone and the rest is free. technical videos shot with a phone raw would be perfectly fine(preferable) especially as opposed to zilch. 

i thnk the z10 is gonna be my ranch pasture wheel so i’d really like to know if it can be rinsed well.

Edited by novazeus
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15 hours ago, Demargon said:

Reading the comments about overloading and wather issues I need to answer them: they are someone's who don't have any those problems

If that isn't enough I do several times this sand and salty water test at different speeds without problems

 

1

Nice rides. i see you are a rebel riding on the wet salty beach and hosing it all down. I'm more cautious, i clean with a wet towel and only use a leaf blower. It's amazing how much dirt comes out! I"m wondering, on the first video, after getting off halfway up the hill at 12:30-13:30, why didn't you continue to ride it but rather chose to walk it up. Was the dirt too loose or did you not think the V10F had enough power? That's when I overload when I PUSH it.

12 hours ago, palachzzz said:

 

Well.. The numbers do not look good, actually FETs can survive up to 170C, but it is for FETs themselves, temperature of heatsink (measured) will be lower 

I can advise using current and temperature alarms in WheelLog.. Something like 80-90C temp alarm and about 25amps for current (2200w/84v=26A)

6

25 Amps? So that number seems really low to me but then I looked at the logs and you are correct, it rarely goes higher than 25Amps WITH THIS WHEEL. Mostly because I rarely go higher than 2000W (even though I overload regularly). But with the Gotway MCM5, a 1500W wheel, I look at the logs and wheellog shows MUCH higher power and therefore much higher current. I was told by @Marty Backe 90A was a good place to set the Amp alarm and don't push the wheel if it stays up there for 5 secs. That 90A number seems about right to me because looking at my MCM5 logs, my power current is regularly at 30A-50A and DOES spike at 90A once in a while.  However, doing reverse math 90Ax84v = 7560W, how can this be?

 

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7 minutes ago, maltocs said:

Nice rides. i see you are a rebel riding on the wet salty beach and hosing it all down. I'm more cautious, i clean with a wet towel and only use a leaf blower. It's amazing how much dirt comes out! I"m wondering, on the first video, after getting off halfway up the hill at 12:30-13:30, why didn't you continue to ride it but rather chose to walk it up. Was the dirt too loose or did you not think the V10F had enough power? That's when I overload when I PUSH it.

25 Amps? So that number seems really low to me but then I looked at the logs and you are correct, it rarely goes higher than 25Amps WITH THIS WHEEL. Mostly because I rarely go higher than 2000W (even though I overload regularly). But with the Gotway MCM5, a 1500W wheel, I look at the logs and wheellog shows MUCH higher power and therefore much higher current. I was told by @Marty Backe 90A was a good place to set the Amp alarm and don't push the wheel if it stays up there for 5 secs. That 90A number seems about right to me because looking at my MCM5 logs, my power current is regularly at 30A-50A and DOES spike at 90A once in a while.  However, doing reverse math 90Ax84v = 7560W, how can this be?

 

I think the consensus has been that the Gotway ampere readings are not accurate in absolute terms.

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5 minutes ago, maltocs said:

90Ax84v = 7560W, how can this be?

I think there is something fishy going on in how Gotway reports the amps being used. My MSX on DarknessBot bounces to 4-5 times the amps once every second even when riding slowly at a steady speed on a smooth surface. In contrast 16S always shows expectable values.

I really don’t think I’m actually pulling 8000W and 100A regularily when I ride. I don’t believe the GW power management to be that poor. Could be that the Gotway amp reading samples overlap and gets multiplied or something.

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1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I think there is something fishy going on in how Gotway reports the amps being used. My MSX on DarknessBot bounces to 4-5 times the amps once every second even when riding slowly at a steady speed on a smooth surface. In contrast 16S always shows expectable values.

I really don’t think I’m actually pulling 8000W and 100A regularily when I ride. I don’t believe the GW power management to be that poor. Could be that the Gotway amp reading samples overlap and gets multiplied or something.

This is nothing new. It's been known for at least 2-years that the Gotway ampere measurement is not an absolute value. Use it for relative analysis only. 

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6 hours ago, maltocs said:

25 Amps? So that number seems really low to me but then I looked at the logs and you are correct, it rarely goes higher than 25Amps WITH THIS WHEEL. Mostly because I rarely go higher than 2000W (even though I overload regularly). But with the Gotway MCM5, a 1500W wheel, I look at the logs and wheellog shows MUCH higher power and therefore much higher current. I was told by @Marty Backe 90A was a good place to set the Amp alarm and don't push the wheel if it stays up there for 5 secs. That 90A number seems about right to me because looking at my MCM5 logs, my power current is regularly at 30A-50A and DOES spike at 90A once in a while.  However, doing reverse math 90Ax84v = 7560W, how can this be?

Inmotion shows true battery current, instead of Gotway, which shows motor phase current, which could be so far from real battery current.. I think your 90A spikes, was at about zero speed,  when the motor current is the most distant from battery current

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8 hours ago, maltocs said:

I"m wondering, on the first video, after getting off halfway up the hill at 12:30-13:30, why didn't you continue to ride

It's the moment I get flat tire and hit badly the RIM. Was a long downhill until I reach the road and I be rescued by my girlfriend.

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27 minutes ago, Demargon said:

It's the moment I get flat tire and hit badly the RIM. Was a long downhill until I reach the road and I be rescued by my girlfriend.

Right, so that was that! Well I recall you managed to get that sorted out nicely, it's still holding up fine after your adjustment?

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22 hours ago, maltocs said:

Gotway MCM5, a 1500W wheel, I look at the logs and wheellog shows MUCH higher power and therefore much higher current. I was told by @Marty Backe 90A was a good place to set the Amp alarm and don't push the wheel if it stays up there for 5 secs. That 90A number seems about right to me because looking at my MCM5 logs, my power current is regularly at 30A-50A and DOES spike at 90A once in a while.  However, doing reverse math 90Ax84v = 7560W, how can this be?

That actually is not possible to produce 90Amps with the MCM5 battery, in reality it is only able to produce 30Amps max! (20s3p)

But it is known that the Amp/watt numbers showed by GW are about 2-3 times higher than what would be reasonable or real....

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31 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:
Thank you so much for your patience and understanding through this process. We are here to make sure you are taken care of, so please let us know if you have any questions!


 Team InMotion USA

Just so I fully understand, everything below the black EVA Sticker (line of delineation) is supplied by Inmotion and all of the tools above are the customer’s responsibility?  I have most  of the tools but what is a ‘Small Shovel’?  Some sort of putty knife/scraper? 

44039708271_41dfef4ba7_b.jpg

 

It may be prudent to post the modification instructions so owners can make a better determination if they wish to proceed down the DIY avenue. 

Edited by Rehab1
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