New Inmotion V10 / V10F

[eddiemoy]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

My pre-production V10F failed because of water intrusion. So maybe they thought their fix was good but in the real world, not so much.

Eddie, do some tests during your next rain 

LOL, lucky i don't like riding in the rain or wet conditions.  

 

2 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I was in the pre-order batch and got it straight from InMotion. Maybe distributors will send a separate email to their customers later today? 

maybe i'm just hoping that the unclear communication in that email is suggesting it is new wheels only.  But looks like it means all wheels. 

 

@Jason McNeil  @Bobwheel

Please clarify which wheels are affected.  All of them?  Also what is being done to fix the wheels that customers already have.  

 

 

[Unventor]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

My pre-production V10F failed because of water intrusion. So maybe they thought their fix was good but in the real world, not so much.

Eddie, do some tests during your next rain 

I really don't think you should push the boundaries on this matter.

If you don't know what I am talking about, then try look st the documentary on Netflix (if you have access of course) title Super battery (Nova production).

They show both contaminated lithium battery with water and the results and if you get a punctured/squeezed damage.

It is not a laughing matter. It needs to be treated with respect.

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I consider V10F still a work in progress. It’s been getting better and we are still waiting to hear what fixes there will be.

But I’m not sure if they have ever even tried to be in “performance category” (I guess you mean speed). Most of it’s best features cannot be seen on spec sheets. And I think they are mostly aiming for mass market and general audience. Not us geeks on this forum. I would judge this wheel on build quality, safety and comfort. They seem to try to excell in those categories mostly. But yeah, Gotway fans are probably not their target audience. 

I’m glad Gotways can be ridden in any weather and never have any problems with water. And even if in a rare occasion a Gotway got wet inside, the Kebye company takes it very seriously. ?

Are you mocking us Gotway riders 

With emphasis on being able to go 25-mph, I do think that Inmotion was pushing the V10F as a performance wheel in the same category as some of the KingSong and Gotway wheels. I still think it is. Hopefully they don't give up on the overload issue, but it's so bad that I have my doubts that any firmware change will fully fix this.

I don't want them to fail, because the more competition that's out there will make all wheels better in the long run.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Marty Backe

[UniVehje]

29 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

maybe i'm just hoping that the unclear communication in that email is suggesting it is new wheels only.  But looks like it means all wheels. 

 

@Jason McNeil  @Bobwheel

Please clarify which wheels are affected.  All of them?  Also what is being done to fix the wheels that customers already have.

Here's the part on who are affected:

Quote

We wanted to let you know that we’ve discovered some waterproofing vulnerability in our current released batches of V10 / V10F.

A bit unclear but I think that means all wheels, no? They may have a fixed batch ready that hasn't been shipped out yet. I think there are not that many wheels sold yet. They've been hard to get. They also say that not every wheel is affected so maybe they only discovered a fault in production line (or a lazy worker skipping steps) that could affect some wheels. 

Quote

Also what is being done to fix the wheels that customers already have.

Here's what they say in the email:

Quote

Rest assured that we will make sure your V10 / V10F gets properly weather sealed, and any customer that that incurs damage to their wheel as a result of this issue will receive complimentary repairs or replacement.

At least they are taking care of their customers properly. They say we will know in two weeks what this will be in practice (and probably how to inspect the wheel yourself, I would assume). So they ask us not to ride in rain for two weeks just in case. 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by UniVehje

[UniVehje]

15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Are you mocking us Gotway riders 

Well, let's just say it's good to keep these things in perspective. It's not cool that the first batches are not perfect but you have to give props to how they are handling it. Not every company does it like this and it's one of the reasons I like InMotion. I do understand the reasons you like Gotway very well, I'm not trying to mock that. And I'm not exclusive with InMotion either, currently seriously considering a Gotway as my next wheel. 

21 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

With emphasis on being able to go 25-mph, I do think that Inmotion was pushing the V10F as a performance wheel in the same category as some of the KingSong and Gotway wheels.

Prior to the V10F there was only one KingSong (18S) going that fast, if I recall correctly. I'm just glad they are pushing the limit and keeping the other qualities as well. With the help of DarknessBot it's a 45 km/h wheel but granted only for full battery. When I will someday want to go faster, I'd like that to be on a larger than 16" wheel anyway. 

[Jeffrey Scott Will]

50 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Here's the part on who are affected:

A bit unclear but I think that means all wheels, no? They may have a fixed batch ready that hasn't been shipped out yet. I think there are not that many wheels sold yet. They've been hard to get. They also say that not every wheel is affected so maybe they only discovered a fault in production line (or a lazy worker skipping steps) that could affect some wheels. 

Here's what they say in the email:

At least they are taking care of their customers properly. They say we will know in two weeks what this will be in practice (and probably how to inspect the wheel yourself, I would assume). So they ask us not to ride in rain for two weeks just in case. 

 

The weather sealing vulnerability potentially affects all wheels in customers hands right now. That's not to say every customer is having issues related to the vulnerability or that every wheel is vulnerable. But we want to be super careful about this kind of thing so we are letting everyone know. 

And yes, we are definitely going to take care of all of our customers. We will have a fix for everyone so they can confidently ride in the rain once we roll that out, but for now we ask you not do that. Anyone who actually gets water damage from this issue will also get fixed or replacement. 

 

[MBIKER_SURFER]

Thanks for clarification. I just got my V10F back from repair. But rain is actually in Germany no issue. Dry like California!

[Harold Farrenkopf]

21 minutes ago, Jeffrey Scott Will said:

The weather sealing vulnerability potentially affects all wheels in customers hands right now. That's not to say every customer is having issues related to the vulnerability or that every wheel is vulnerable. But we want to be super careful about this kind of thing so we are letting everyone know. 

And yes, we are definitely going to take care of all of our customers. We will have a fix for everyone so they can confidently ride in the rain once we roll that out, but for now we ask you not do that. Anyone who actually gets water damage from this issue will also get fixed or replacement. 

 

Can you say where the weather ingress problem is and to what component?

[440hz]

11 hours ago, Fastmike said:

It will be nice to know what are the production dates of the concerned wheels? All?  

@Bobwheel, can you please shed some lights on this?

Many thanks

And how can we know what are the batches affected and which from which batch is a wheel built from?

[Harold Farrenkopf]

10 minutes ago, 440hz said:

And how can we know what are the batches affected and which from which batch is a wheel built from?

They said all the wheels built to date.

 

[maltocs]

11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow, very cool Scot. And I must say, you're a glutton for punishment, to subject yourself to 28 overloads.  And every few minutes! Not good, and not impressive for the 2.2.8 firmware. I don't think you were overloading that much when we did the trip.

Somehow I don't think you're going to make this trip again in the V10F.

 

 

I was trying to make it to that fabulous chili cheese dog we had up at the cafe. I guess I'll have to take the MCM5 up there to enjoy my feast next time.

 

11 hours ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

@maltocs Thanks for this info. Really disappointing to me, although I won't meet this overload in my 'summer residence' - due to no hills ?

If the app shows the correct values for max. power, disappoinitng too.

Keep us informed on any new tries!

After the first overload, I was babying the wheel knowing that it would overload again. I was trying to keep the power down, going as straight as possible. If I saw a bigger incline coming up, i'd ride a little faster so i can use my kinetic energy to get me to the next perch. I was riding it like I had a Prius going for a hyper-mileage record.  

 

9 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Thank you, this is the way to do it! Random anecdotes don't really provide anything helpful. 

My next question would be: What would be the acceptable behaviour for this wheel? I don't think anybody expects any wheel to never reach it's limits. All wheels have their limits, so this data is somewhat meaningless (for us, maybe not for InMotion) in a vacuum. We should compare it to other wheels that have self preservation built in. If most other wheels can do the same course with same rider with less or no overloads, then it's quite clear there's a problem with the wheel. Also, it would benefit this discussion to know what the exact heatsink temperature is that triggers the overload behaviour. Have they set it at 80C like the others or not? This wheel either reach the limit faster than others of the limit is set lower for some reason. 

 

If you notice my post didn't include any commentary, it was JUST DATA for Bob and InMotion. My intent is like @Marty Backe not openly bashing Cooch for sending him a Z10 that looked like it came from a garage sale, just to get people talking! I did do a VERY similar test yesterday with the new MCM5 and I got much better results with the MCM5, it's on another thread. 

 

3 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

Lets try this same test with my KS18L and get a comparison vehicle test. This will be a good test, because the 18L is the 2nd over 24mph vehicle that Kingsong has produced, so it should do better. I am curious to see the results for better or worse. It will also give the Shenzhen companies a little competition research.

It looks like this record july heat is staying with us until at least next week so anytime is a great time to do the test. If you don't mind more 90F heat, I can go tomorrow (Friday) afternoon. We can do either griffith hill or mt wilson at about 2p. PM me. 

-----

Having done two similar hills yesterday, one with the MCM5 and another with the V10F i can easily say the MCM5 is more capable with my weight going up a consistent hills. I was not babying it like I do the V10F trying to get it to NOT overload. I was actually enjoying the ride uphill. But coming down, the V10F is way more fun as it eats up the bumps and floats over sand traps, I'm just surfing. I have to be a little more careful with the MCM5 with its smaller tire. I enjoy the peppiness of the MCM5, very MTen3like. Cruising on anything other than up a long hill, I'd still choose the V10F. 

I still think the V10F is SO CLOSE to being an awesome wheel if they can just raise the tolerances a little higher. They say overloads have everything to do with the unbroadcasted heatsink temps. On yesterday's test, you'll notice I was NOT able to get higher than 70C on the mainboard temp. I would just turn it off, wait for the fan to stop (about 10s), then immediately turn it back on and get right back to riding. Those two temps have to be related in some way. Maybe raise that tolerance 5 to 10C? 

Below is a strava graph of elevation vs speed. You can see as I was approaching the peak of my climb, I was trying to go slower to avoid overloads, but i was still getting them after every minute or two. So NOT fun, esp in the 90F heat. 

[UniVehje]

16 minutes ago, maltocs said:

Below is a strava graph of elevation vs speed. You can see as I was approaching the peak of my climb, I was trying to go slower to avoid overloads, but i was still getting them after every minute or two. So NOT fun, esp in the 90F heat. 

Great data! We can see the overheats. Looks like you got more overheats when going slower? Was the hill different there? I'm just thinking that when going slower you are effectively also reducing the fan effect from the wheel to the heatsink. Not that this makes any difference to the issue itself, it's pretty clear. 

[maltocs]

2 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Great data! We can see the overheats. Looks like you got more overheats when going slower? Was the hill different there? I'm just thinking that when going slower you are effectively also reducing the fan effect from the wheel to the heatsink. Not that this makes any difference to the issue itself, it's pretty clear. 

I tried fast, slow, straight, twisty, daydreaming about ice cubes on the mosfets, every possible combination. Trust me, I would MUCH rather go fast than slow, I love the speed. It would overload faster. At some point I was going slow because I was on a mission to get to the top. Sadly, i gave up when I did some quick math and realize I had 10 overloads in the last mile and i still had 3 miles to go. 

[WARPed1701D]

I may have missed this but has anyone used Wheellog with the v10 yet (I understand it is now compatible)? Does it capture the heatsink temperature? I know it reports two temperatures from the V8. One aligns with the Inmotion app...the other is a bit of a mystery.

[Rehab1]

5 hours ago, Jeffrey Scott Will said:

The weather sealing vulnerability potentially affects all wheels in customers hands right now. That's not to say every customer is having issues related to the vulnerability or that every wheel is vulnerable. But we want to be super careful about this kind of thing so we are letting everyone know. 

And yes, we are definitely going to take care of all of our customers. We will have a fix for everyone so they can confidently ride in the rain once we roll that out, but for now we ask you not do that. Anyone who actually gets water damage from this issue will also get fixed or replacement. 

 

That’s great news! I empirically don‘t ride in the rain but will be pleased when this issue is finally put to rest. Any ideas if the fix be a customer DIY project or are you expecting all of the V10Fs you supplied to be shipped back to your facility for the seal upgrade? 

[Fastmike]

16 hours ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

Thanks for clarification. I just got my V10F back from repair. But rain is actually in Germany no issue. Dry like California!

The issue is that with people taking care of their gardens, wet roads are very common in Summer...

The second impact of that is, if that sealing is not perfect, we can assume that some heat was able to get out somehow. But once sealed complete, overheat might be worse...   ?

Edited August 3, 2018 by Fastmike

[palachzzz]

22 hours ago, maltocs said:

I would just turn it off, wait for the fan to stop (about 10s), then immediately turn it back on and get right back to riding.

After pressing the power button - controller immediately turn off motor and everything else, but the controller and fan stays on for 7 seconds more. After 7 seconds BMS turn off the controller, and fan. If you want to cool the controller, you shouldn't turn V10 off.. You need to wait some time while fan cools down main board. Also the better way to cool down heatsink - is to lift up the wheel and let the motor rotate at high speed without making it to the cutoff point 

Edited August 3, 2018 by palachzzz

[Demargon]

It seems my v10f problem with the rim hit comes worsen. I been talking with the inmotion post sale department and they proposed a engine replacement for what I get a 400€ bill.

They didn't assume the costs because is my blame for using it like they show in his promo:

And this is the result when I ride the same (with my 60kg of weight and 38 years old):

 

[Fastmike]

60kg is light... bending a rim with that weight is worrying me! What tire pressure were you running at?

[MBIKER_SURFER]

Hi @all,

 

I got my V10F back from repair -> mainboard changed. Problem is, the wheel goes into 'forward tilt' position. When you change the pedal positioning to +8° (forward tilt - the maximum possible in Android App) and add another 5° in mind,  than you get about the forward tilt position of my V10F, when I'm doing 360° turns or more respectively on wide curves.

Riding the wheel for instance 10 km only in 'slalom cruising' mode - no problems at all.This is really annoying. My V5F runs on exact the same route perfectly. Anybody an idea?

I tend to give back the V10F to the dealer. This forward tilt is dangerous especially on inclines doing turns - it throws you off to the front. Due to the fact that I'm expecting something to happen, I'm leaving the wheel without getting injured.I tried everything out - body calibrations, FW updates and so on - it stays always the same. Is this normal, a bug or a feature?

[Fastmike]

6 minutes ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

Hi @all,

 

I got my V10F back from repair -> mainboard changed. Problem is, the wheel goes into 'forward tilt' position. When you change the pedal positioning to +8° (forward tilt - the maximum possible in Android App) and add another 5° in mind,  than you get about the forward tilt position of my V10F, when I'm doing 360° turns or more respectively on wide curves.

Riding the wheel for instance 10 km only in 'slalom cruising' mode - no problems at all.This is really annoying. My V5F runs on exact the same route perfectly. Anybody an idea?

I tend to give back the V10F to the dealer. This forward tilt is dangerous especially on inclines doing turns - it throws you off to the front. Due to the fact that I'm expecting something to happen, I'm leaving the wheel without getting injured.I tried everything out - body calibrations, FW updates and so on - it stays always the same. Is this normal, a bug or a feature?

Just to be sure did you run the calibration?

Edited August 3, 2018 by Fastmike

[maltocs]

4 minutes ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

Hi @all,

 

I got my V10F back from repair -> mainboard changed. Problem is, the wheel goes into 'forward tilt' position. When you change the pedal positioning to +8° (forward tilt - the maximum possible in Android App) and add another 5° in mind,  than you get about the forward tilt position of my V10F, when I'm doing 360° turns or more respectively on wide curves.

Riding the wheel for instance 10 km only in 'slalom cruising' mode - no problems at all.This is really annoying. My V5F runs on exact the same route perfectly. Anybody an idea?

I tend to give back the V10F to the dealer. This forward tilt is dangerous especially on inclines doing turns - it throws you off to the front. Due to the fact that I'm expecting something to happen, I'm leaving the wheel without getting injured.I tried everything out - body calibrations, FW updates and so on - it stays always the same. Is this normal, a bug or a feature?

Oh no! Did you recalibrate?

[Demargon]

45 minutes ago, Fastmike said:

60kg is light... bending a rim with that weight is worrying me! What tire pressure were you running at?

I'm using the factory default pressure of 2.8 bar as recommended by inmotion. Maybe something less due the use

[MBIKER_SURFER]

1 minute ago, maltocs said:

Oh no! Did you recalibrate?

OF course. I'm doing that in the meantime 'on the fly' ?

[Demargon]

6 minutes ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

This forward tilt is dangerous especially on inclines doing turns 

I get the same tilt behaviour every time after calibrating it. I'm start to regret buying the v10f