Jump to content

New Inmotion V10 / V10F


Pingouin

Recommended Posts

Not my best idea, but maybe there's some substance that can be applied around the heatsink sensor to trick it into thinking the heatsink is a little cooler than it really is. :eff01bbbfc:

I'm not necessarily concerned but I can get close to the 150lb weight all in if I'm transporting stuff, wearing armor, eat too much etc.. That's just a really low threshold. For the DC area, lot of unknowns as to whether there are actually any cool hills/mountains to wheel up. Haven't looked into it yet.

Edit: KS16Sv2 sounds like it'll be the 16" winner (of the 'nanny' wheel category), if it gets close to a 2kw pack,  etc..

Edited by Glitched
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

I went back there early yesterday and my V8 did all the hills without any complaints. I am totally not sure why the V10F gets overloaded when it is twice as powerful. And that hill we both overloaded on was difficult on the V8, but done without warnings. We are reaching a crossroads where the Power of the vehicle is hidden by the speed limiter and governed by speed, but not by Force needed.

What I think we are seeing is unlike the speed limiter which is easy to govern the vehicle with one measurement, measuring the force of torque needed is a few more steps, and the unlimited power of the 2kw motor might be able to fry the components if not limited. The problem we are seeing is that InMotion has not factored in the heavier riders being able to flood the motor with power and the ability of the motor to provide that much power with that force being applied and used for torque. I think they realze this now and should, ought to, be able to give us a fix. I think it will take two or three more updates to rectify. I think we are closing in.

Is it possible that the V8 engine is of better quality?  I know nothing about engines as it relates to EUCs, but have a theory that the "new" Inmotion may not be up to the same standard as the previous version, and that they might essentially be two different companies using the same name.  I remember reading that the V8 engine uses high grade alloys designed to keep the weight down and am curious whether the engine itself might be of higher quality.  I also remember reading that the V8 engine can do 2100W peak, FWIW.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, maltocs said:

 

Here is a quick and dirty video of three overloads with my weight on the V10F using prerelease v2.2.7 software at the local hilly hiking park in Los Angeles, CA shot today in 95 F weather. 

I’m new to video editing so I’m going to ask @eddiemoy and @UniVehje how to embed the real time InMotion app screen into to the video as I don't know of any other app that connects to the wheel at this point. The only way I figured out how to do this is use the android version of the app, make the screen to never timeout, use a screen recorder, and keep the phone upright and on the entire time hoping to never accidentally change the screen.orientation or change apps while muting all notifications. Then while editing, somehow try to match the screen video to the actual action cam video. Is there an easier way?

 

Very nice video documentary for this issue. Of course now we know that the app is not reporting the heatsink temperature. To my mind, this means that the issue may be beyond a firmware fix, because if we actually saw the heatsink temperature it would probably be at ~80-degrees. That's only resolved by mechanical changes.

It's before your time, but the KingSong wheels were notorious for overheating in a similar fashion. That was resolved only with the introduction of the S-series wheels.

P.s. I'm pretty sure that the MCM5 would scream up that hill :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Looks like the Z10 will probably not be at the Saturday ride because Chooch has yet to ship it to me - he may have lost it ;)

But we'll still enjoy a nice ride around the park.

I do hope it don't blow the tyre if it is airshipped...ohh forgot he rode it at 10psi??

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Is it possible that the V8 engine is of better quality?  I know nothing about engines as it relates to EUCs, but have a theory that the "new" Inmotion may not be up to the same standard as the previous version, and that they might essentially be two different companies using the same name.  I remember reading that the V8 engine uses high grade alloys designed to keep the weight down and am curious whether the engine itself might be of higher quality.  I also remember reading that the V8 engine can do 2100W peak, FWIW.  

I doubt it has anything to do with the motor other than the motor is capable of drawing substantially (>>100-percent) more power. The motor isn't overheating. It's the electronics that are funneling all of that additional current through their hardware. It's probably a simple case of not being able to sufficiently dissipate the resulting heat. They need a bigger fan and/or heatsink. That's what KingSong and Gotway did to resolve their heat issues when entering the  performance wheel market (which they invented).

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, maltocs said:

Good God! The amount of activity on this thread is making me question my skills of time management. How do you guys ride, make and edit videos, then keep up with all the stuff on this forum? Either I'm the only one here with a day job or I just have very poor time management. 

So I'm glad that Bob shed some light that it's the heat sink temperature that triggers the overload warning. So the heat sinks can't keep up with the temperature climb during a long 2+ minute load on the system. I get that part. I feel like there HAS to be some other factor. How can a simple 30 second power recycle be enough to allow the heat sinks to cool enough to not trigger anymore? And it seems very inconsistent as to what temperature overloads happen.

Maybe the reason I don't understand is I don't know what the heat sinks are cooling. I only have experience building computers. You drop in a CPU that gets super hot. You put a heat sink on top of the CPU that transfers and dissipates the CPU heat and a fan that blows air through the heat sink. Bottom line is the CPU is the always the HOTTEST thing in there. If anything, the heat sink is the 2nd hottest thing but will never get hotter than the CPU. If any number is frightening, it would be what the heat sink is cooling. So shouldn't the OVERLOAD warning be on the what the heat sink is cooling and not the heat sink itself? Engineers, chime in!

The CPU in our wheels is barely working, I would surmise. In the grand scheme of things (compared to our typical bloated PC that has to deal with graphics, etc.) an embedded controller for our application is probably asleep most of the time. I doubt that it gets very warm let alone hot.

The heat is coming from the MOSFETs which are channeling the power to the motor. These are attached to a large heat sink. Until recently Gotway also tied the heatsink to one of the pedal hangers - a really big chunk of metal. That's why the MSuper and ACM are very hard to overheat, and they (until recently for some reason) don't have any fans.

I imagine Inmotion has a temp sensor attached to the heatsink. The CPU probably has an embedded heat sensor (?). Like Bob said, they didn't want to 'scare' users by reporting the heatsink temperature.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I imagine Inmotion has a temp sensor attached to the heatsink. The CPU probably has an embedded heat sensor (?). Like Bob said, they didn't want to 'scare' users by reporting the heatsink temperature.

Yeah, scary means higher temperature. Wouldn't the MOSFETs have the scariest numbers and most potential of frying and therefore be the number that should trigger the overload? 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, maltocs said:

Good God! The amount of activity on this thread is making me question my skills of time management. How do you guys ride, make and edit videos, then keep up with all the stuff on this forum? Either I'm the only one here with a day job or I just have very poor time management. 

The solution is? Don't work anymore - and you've got plenty of time ?

Edited by MBIKER_SURFER
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The MOSFET's are attached to the heatsink. The heatsink has a temperature sensor that is used by the controller to shut the wheel down if it's getting too hot. This is what Inmotion is doing.

What they aren't doing is reporting the heatsink temperature to the user. Instead they decided to report the CPU temperature to the user, and it probably changes very little. False advertising in a way. Everyone is looking at the Inmotion App and saying, "Hey, this wheel has fantastic heat management, the temp's are nice and steady" :huh:

Temperature on the CPU goes up pretty high.  But since they are monitoring the heat sink temperature, the CPU temp is meaningless.  In my test, I had overload at 150’s and then again at low 140’s which I now know why I got overload at different temperatures.  On @maltocs‘s video, I saw it even lower at 133.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, maltocs said:

Yeah, scary means higher temperature. Wouldn't the MOSFETs have the scariest numbers and most potential of frying and therefore be the number that should trigger the overload? 

Maybe your fan isn’t working.  Have you heard the fan?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Maybe your fan isn’t working.  Have you heard the fan?  

Yeah, my fan definitely works. I don't always hear it when i'm out and about because it's loud out there, but every time I roll into the house where it's quiet, I hear it. Also, at some point during a test with Bill, we swapped wheels and I got the same results with his "problem free" wheel.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Temperature on the CPU goes up pretty high.  But since they are monitoring the heat sink temperature, the CPU temp is meaningless.  In my test, I had overload at 150’s and then again at low 140’s which I now know why I got overload at different temperatures.  On @maltocs‘s video, I saw it even lower at 133.  

I bet the CPU is attached to the same heatsink as the MOSFETs, but maybe somewhat indirectly. There is nothing in the firmware running in the CPU that would cause the CPU to heat up.

Embedded controllers like what's in our wheel run a repetitive loop of software that changes very little regardless of how we are riding our wheels. You would probably be surprised at how simple the software is (compared to what's running on your phone, for instance).

When you were doing your pendulums you were't making the CPU work harder. The MOSFETs were working harder and those temperature were migrating to the CPU, over time. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The MOSFET's are attached to the heatsink. The heatsink has a temperature sensor that is used by the controller to shut the wheel down if it's getting too hot. This is what Inmotion is doing.

What they aren't doing is reporting the heatsink temperature to the user. Instead they decided to report the CPU temperature to the user, and it probably changes very little. False advertising in a way. Everyone is looking at the Inmotion App and saying, "Hey, this wheel has fantastic heat management, the temp's are nice and steady" :huh:

But the measure the temp for overheat were it has to be measured - near the mosfets. With some compartment temperature measurement like other wheels use by the delay mosfets can get too hot and get "aged"/damaged/fried...

Would be a nice comparison how the non inmotion wheels would perform uphill with such a very meaningful heatsink temp threshold...

... And how board (mosfet) failure rate/lifetime is affected...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

But the measure the temp for overheat were it has to be measured - near the mosfets. With some compartment temperature measurement like other wheels use by the delay mosfets can get too hot and get "aged"/damaged/fried...

Would be a nice comparison how the non inmotion wheels would perform uphill with such a very meaningful heatsink temp threshold...

... And how board (mosfet) failure rate/lifetime is affected...

I totally agree. Inmotion is trying to provide good reliability by monitoring the temperature near the mosfets and shutting down the wheel before the power devices die. Even though the rider is having to dismount and wait, at least the wheel will be usable again once the system has cooled a bit. As you say, it would be very interesting to see how hot other manufacturer's wheels are getting near their power electronics. Either they're getting really hot and may someday die from repeated stress, or the manufacturer did a better job of moving the heat out of their system.

Of course, those people that are climbing mountains on hot days are very likely to be using their wheels in a manner that the manufacturers didn't plan for! A designer has a usage case and designs for that. If a user deviates from that usage case, trouble will probably be encountered. I imagine the usage case for wheel manufacturers is relatively flat smooth streets and sidewalks with a few steep hills here and there, not a constant uphill grind in hot weather. The fact that some wheels are handling the adverse usage case of mountain climbing better than others could mean that there is a possibility that those wheels may not be reliable over the long haul. But it all hinges on how the power electronics were protected.

It's going to be very interesting to see how the Z10 handles the hilly trail riding. It certainly looks like a wheel that was designed for offroading.

Inmotion probably has some design margin they can play with, i.e. letting their power electronics get a little hotter before shutting down, because they were most likely designing for long term reliability. But I doubt that they have a lot of wiggle room before they feel they have reached an unacceptable risk to their desired reliability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, kjon12 said:

I totally agree. Inmotion is trying to provide good reliability by monitoring the temperature near the mosfets and shutting down the wheel before the power devices die. Even though the rider is having to dismount and wait, at least the wheel will be usable again once the system has cooled a bit. As you say, it would be very interesting to see how hot other manufacturer's wheels are getting near their power electronics. Either they're getting really hot and may someday die from repeated stress, or the manufacturer did a better job of moving the heat out of their system.

Of course, those people that are climbing mountains on hot days are very likely to be using their wheels in a manner that the manufacturers didn't plan for! A designer has a usage case and designs for that. If a user deviates from that usage case, trouble will probably be encountered. I imagine the usage case for wheel manufacturers is relatively flat smooth streets and sidewalks with a few steep hills here and there, not a constant uphill grind in hot weather. The fact that some wheels are handling the adverse usage case of mountain climbing better than others could mean that there is a possibility that those wheels may not be reliable over the long haul. But it all hinges on how the power electronics were protected.

It's going to be very interesting to see how the Z10 handles the hilly trail riding. It certainly looks like a wheel that was designed for offroading.

Inmotion probably has some design margin they can play with, i.e. letting their power electronics get a little hotter before shutting down, because they were most likely designing for long term reliability. But I doubt that they have a lot of wiggle room before they feel they have reached an unacceptable risk to their desired reliability.

This is a design issue with Inmotion. The KingSong S-Series do not overheat like this, and Gotway wheels also rarely overheat. They both implement better heat dissipation techniques than Inmotion does with the V10F.

Everything that I see from KingSong and Gotway tells me that they know these wheels are used in all conditions. KingSong does some testing on some very aggressive hills near their factory - hills that I'd be concerned about riding.

Nope, this is a misstep by Inmotion and we shouldn't excuse them.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, kjon12 said:

Of course, those people that are climbing mountains on hot days are very likely to be using their wheels in a manner that the manufacturers didn't plan for! A designer has a usage case and designs for that. If a user deviates from that usage case, trouble will probably be encountered. I imagine the usage case for wheel manufacturers is relatively flat smooth streets and sidewalks with a few steep hills here and there, not a constant uphill grind in hot weather. 

The specs from the instruction manual is max slope 30 degrees, working temp 14-104F, and payload 120kg. I know, #3 says max slope was tested at 75kg, but we tested that at less than 30 degrees and it still overloaded. What it's designed for seems different than what they advertise it can do. 

Capture (1).JPG

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This heatsink must have extraordinarily low heat capacity and very high flux, because I can make my V10F reliably "overload" in one burst of acceleration after it has been shut off for hours, and then simply press the handle button to reset it for less than one second to hop back on and continue riding like nothing happened.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

This is a design issue with Inmotion. The KingSong S-Series do not overheat like this, and Gotway wheels also rarely overheat. They both implement better heat dissipation techniques than Inmotion does with the V10F.

Everything that I see from KingSong and Gotway tells me that they know these wheels are used in all conditions. KingSong does some testing on some very aggressive hills near their factory - hills that I'd be concerned about riding.

Nope, this is a misstep by Inmotion and we shouldn't excuse them.

I agree! As I said, "But it all hinges on how the power electronics were protected". Inmotion is probably both overconservative, and didn't design for the stresses you guys are putting these wheels through. It's not a dig on you, per se. I just think it's that they didn't design for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, soulson said:

This heatsink must have extraordinarily low heat capacity and very high flux, because I can make my V10F reliably "overload" in one burst of acceleration after it has been shut off for hours, and then simply press the handle button to reset it for less than one second to hop back on and continue riding like nothing happened.

To me, that sounds like a totally different failure mechanism, unless your burst of acceleration occurs over minutes, but it sounds like for you it's seconds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...