New Inmotion V10 / V10F

[Glitched]

It sounds like ""someday"" they may tie the overload temperature from the heatsink to the processor, or they will make the app read out the heatsink temp instead of the core processor temp. Not clear. I mean... shouldn't the components designed around the heatsink be very heat resistant, you'd think? It's strange to me how this v10 is supposedly designed so meticulously, but then the parts around the heat sink weren't made to handle the amount of heat generated in these very mainstream use cases? Pretty baffling. Can the v8 handle these situations without overloading etc? v5?

[Harold Farrenkopf]

12 minutes ago, em1barns said:

The fan is already there, under the motherboard....

The fan over a heat sink should be with outside open air. That is the only way to remove heat to the outside. Or sufficient heat sink contact with outside air to radiate the heat. Easiest way to get heat transfer outside to an external heatsink/fan is to use a heat pipe. I assumed the fan was cooling the power devices to keep them cool when under load and hence a reason I selected this wheel. I'm 255 pounds and 6'3" naked! I feel us big people are being discriminated against now!  

[Demargon]

11 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

The fan over a heat sink should be with outside open air

then it can be obstructed by dust. The wheel tire is working like a fan, no need for other fan there

[Fastmike]

29 minutes ago, em1barns said:

The fan is already there, under the motherboard....

You can see that fan at 3'50" in this IM video https://novom.ru/en/watch/H9aotD8IlEw

[Fastmike]

Soon we might see people replacing the IM thermal paste by a 'better' one as we see all around on computers where it is not rare to see boards running at temp close to 100°C all day long (e.g. my graphic cards...)    ?

Some will also replace the current aluminium heatsink with a copper one... ?

Edited July 10, 2018 by Fastmike

[Demargon]

49 minutes ago, Fastmike said:

computers where it is not rare to see boards running at temp close to 100°C all day long

Computers usually arent surrounded by hermetically closed plastic. I bet 100° can make a nice disaster inside there

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

We first should know, which temperature exactly triggers the overload? And what is the temperature at that time on the MOSFET?

The temp on the mosfets should be just a bit higher than this heatsink temperature - depending on the qualiy of the thermal coupling. (... and time, ambient temperature, casing,... )

1 hour ago, Glitched said:

It sounds like ""someday"" they may tie the overload temperature from the heatsink to the processor, or they will make the app read out the heatsink temp instead of the core processor temp. ...

This heatsink temperature could maybe be already reported by the wheel over bluetooth - afair there are already ?3? different temperatures in the whellog logs from V8 times... They are maybe just not shown on the app screen.

If so maybe @Ilya Shkolnik could be the first to show it in his darknessbot ios app - as he is by now the only real active wheel app developer? (Beside the solowheel/inmotion app developers of course)

[Stan Onymous]

7 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Nice video and good camera. Great looking place to ride also. This behaviour is totally strange to me. Those hills look like something I would do easily. I have tried to find the most challenging hills and always try to climb them. As it’s not temperature or watts it must be something else. The dasboard view shows more things live, current, torque, acceleration etc.  

Do you find the classic mode to be better for this? I use comfort mode at the moment. And I set the footboard sensitiity to the soft side, feels easier to climb. 

I have not really found any asphalt roads that are steep enough to be a challenge. They are all off-road and therefore I haven’t recorded climbing in max speed like @eddiemoy. 

I went back there early yesterday and my V8 did all the hills without any complaints. I am totally not sure why the V10F gets overloaded when it is twice as powerful. And that hill we both overloaded on was difficult on the V8, but done without warnings. We are reaching a crossroads where the Power of the vehicle is hidden by the speed limiter and governed by speed, but not by Force needed.

What I think we are seeing is unlike the speed limiter which is easy to govern the vehicle with one measurement, measuring the force of torque needed is a few more steps, and the unlimited power of the 2kw motor might be able to fry the components if not limited. The problem we are seeing is that InMotion has not factored in the heavier riders being able to flood the motor with power and the ability of the motor to provide that much power with that force being applied and used for torque. I think they realze this now and should, ought to, be able to give us a fix. I think it will take two or three more updates to rectify. I think we are closing in.

[Stan Onymous]

2 hours ago, Fastmike said:

Soon we might see people replacing the IM thermal paste by a 'better' one as we see all around on computers where it is not rare to see boards running at temp close to 100°C all day long (e.g. my graphic cards...)    ?

Some will also replace the current aluminium heatsink with a copper one... ?

Yes, but computers run consuming far fewer watts than a motor. That solution would work for much more efficient systems that dont need 2kw for power. They can safeguard a computer because of the miniturization of the circuitry needing less material to protect the infrastructural wiring. The cost would be a lot more, and it is not analysed that this will solve the problems of the Overload anyway.

However that being said, yes there are a lot more tricks they could apply to the solution that they are not using presently. I would use Magnesium as a heat sink, its lighter. I think InMotion already does that though.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Glitched said:

It sounds like ""someday"" they may tie the overload temperature from the heatsink to the processor, or they will make the app read out the heatsink temp instead of the core processor temp. Not clear. I mean... shouldn't the components designed around the heatsink be very heat resistant, you'd think? It's strange to me how this v10 is supposedly designed so meticulously, but then the parts around the heat sink weren't made to handle the amount of heat generated in these very mainstream use cases? Pretty baffling. Can the v8 handle these situations without overloading etc? v5?

The V10F has a substantially more powerful motor than the V8, etc. They probably designed it around the average Chinese rider (<150-pound person) and didn't do much extended hill climbing with any heavyweights.

A firmware fix for this version of the wheel does not look very promising 

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Fastmike said:

Soon we might see people replacing the IM thermal paste by a 'better' one as we see all around on computers where it is not rare to see boards running at temp close to 100°C all day long (e.g. my graphic cards...)    ?

Some will also replace the current aluminium heatsink with a copper one... ?

Would be interesting how that would change the behaviour! However if you'd ever try to change to thermal paste don't forget the insulation plates!

6 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Yes, but computers run consuming far fewer watts than a motor. That solution would work for much more efficient systems that dont need 2kw for power.

Yes, but the heatsink is for the mosfets and not for the motor! And the mosfets could consume someting in the range of cpus...

6 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

, and it is not analysed that this will solve the problems of the Overload anyway.

 

That's true - i've just once looked at the specs of thermal insulation pads and thry were quite bad compared to thermal paste and insulation "plates". But i have no idea if there exists better ones and exactly which are used in EUCs or rspecially in the V10...

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Stan Onymous said:

I went back there early yesterday and my V8 did all the hills without any complaints. I am totally not sure why the V10F gets overloaded when it is twice as powerful. And that hill we both overloaded on was difficult on the V8, but done without warnings. We are reaching a crossroads where the Power of the vehicle is hidden by the speed limiter and governed by speed, but not by Force needed.

What I think we are seeing is unlike the speed limiter which is easy to govern the vehicle with one measurement, measuring the force of torque needed is a few more steps, and the unlimited power of the 2kw motor might be able to fry the components if not limited. The problem we are seeing is that InMotion has not factored in the heavier riders being able to flood the motor with power and the ability of the motor to provide that much power with that force being applied and used for torque. I think they realze this now and should, ought to, be able to give us a fix. I think it will take two or three more updates to rectify. I think we are closing in.

Not everything is fixable by software. They might be up against basic thermal dynamics - can't dissipate the heat fast enough. They may be able to extend the period between overload conditions a little, but not be able to eliminate them for the same conditions that other wheels can operate under.

Version 1 of the V10F may be inappropriate for the heavier Western riders that want to ride in hill conditions.

As we know, KingSong had their heat issues until the S-Class series of wheels were released, and the earlier Gotway wheels overheated too. Now it's Inmotion's turn 

Edited July 10, 2018 by Marty Backe

[Stan Onymous]

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The V10F has a substantially more powerful motor than the V8, etc. They probably designed it around the average Chinese rider (<150-pound person) and didn't do much extended hill climbing with any heavyweights.

A firmware fix for this version of the wheel does not look very promising 

When I was at CES with @Jason McNeil we met a German manufaturer and an American manufacturer of motors. The American said his company makes 1 million motors a week or some phenomenal number like that. They both stated that these types of motors are actually rated to around 10,000 watts of maximum output. That is what they are physically capable of in factory stress testing.

While I fear is that a firmware fix will be a bandaid, it is also a learning lesson for all companies as these wheels become more and more powerful and are coupled with larger and larger battery packs. At some point all the companies will have to contend with these limits of architecture and boundless power. InMotion gets there first because of its safety constraints evincing these scenarios. I really cant wait to see how the other Safety giant, Segway will address these issues in their new Z lines.

Wait what did you say about the S line? Did your 14S overheat? My 18s has been fine. Oh well not first, but certainly first at 2kw. Lol

Edited July 10, 2018 by Stan Onymous

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Stan Onymous said:

When I was at CES with @Jason McNeil we met a German manufaturer and an American manufacturer of motors. The American said his company makes 1 million motors a week or some phenomenal number like that. They both stated that these types of motors are actually rated to around 10,000 watts of maximum output. That is what they are physically capable of in factory stress testing.

While I fear is that a firmware fix will be a bandaid, it is also a learning lesson for all companies as these wheels become more and more powerful and are coupled with larger and larger battery packs. At some point all the companies will have to contend with these limits of architecture and boundless power. InMotion gets there first because of its safety constraints evincing these scenarios. I really cant wait to see how the other Safety giant, Segway will address these issues in their new Z lines.

When I get the Z10 I'm looking forward to testing its overload/over-temp characteristics. The best that I can tell, nobody that has been riding the tester from @Jason McNeil has pushed the wheel yet (Chooch weighs 120-pounds).

I will be doing the 4600-foot climb with the Z10 so that should be very telling on how Ninebot handles the internal heat.

And if @maltocs is up for the adventure, he can ride the Z10 half way up the mountain (while I ride an ACM2). I think with his extra weight the Z10 hill climbing test will be more thorough. Then we can switch wheels so that he can experience the glory of the ACM2 

Edited July 10, 2018 by Marty Backe

[Stan Onymous]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

will be doing the 4600-foot climb with the Z10 so that should be very telling on how Ninebot handles the internal heat.

You do realize that you run the risk of proving you are too much of a Load dont you? ?

[Fastmike]

30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Not everything is fixable by software. They might be up against basic thermal dynamics - can't dissipate the heat fast enough. They may be able to extend the period between overload conditions a little, but not be able to eliminate them for the same conditions that other wheels can operate under.

Version 1 of the V10F may be inappropriate for the heavier Western riders that want to ride in hill conditions.

As we know, KingSong had their heat issues until the S-Class series of wheels were released, and the earlier Gotway wheels overheated too. Now it's Inmotion's turn 

You are probably right but I can't believe that InMotion did not look into that and ran in the exact same trap after all of those bad experiences for their competitors!

Their engineers much be more competent than that and for sure had look to mistakes done by others during the past years?... 

[Stan Onymous]

9 minutes ago, Fastmike said:

You are probably right but I can't believe that InMotion did not look into that and ran in the exact same trap after all of those bad experiences for their competitors!

Their engineers much be more competent than that and for sure had look to mistakes done by others during the past years?... 

Apparently they really dont care about their competitors, because they compete more for funding than for direct market share with other competitors. They all get funding from different sources for operating costs, so they are not in real competition with eachother and are not concerned with learning from the mistakes of their competitors, not having to directly compete with them for their funding.

We can all hope that putting stock in your last statement will be enough. I really hooe it is, because I dig the V10 and am reticent to push it to its limits on my rides. That Overload message is really factually insulting and depressing at the same time. I am fat and you are tired? Oh no!

Edited July 10, 2018 by Stan Onymous

[Fastmike]

3 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Apparently they really dont care about their competitors, because they compete more for funding than for direct market share with other competitors. They all get funding from different sources for operating costs, so they are not in real competition with eachother and are not concerned with learning from the mistakes of their competitors, not having to directly compete with them for their funding.

We can all hope that putting stock in your last statement will be enough. I really hooe it is, because I dig the V10 and am reticent to push it to its limits on my rides. That message is really factually insulting and depressing at the same time. I am fat and you are tired? Oh no!

I did not mean to be if I was... my poor english level! But still, I will be amazed if we were told that is a faulty design, bla bla bla...   ?

[maltocs]

9 hours ago, UniVehje said:

You pretty much got it. But looks like you are using an iPhone. Go to settings -> control center -> customize (i’m not sure what it says in english, the second row) -> and add screen recording to your control center. Then just flick down and hit the recording. Do some screen flick sideways in a way that you see it on your other camera so you can easily time the two footages exactly right. I use LumaFusion on an iPad to edit, really easy and fun to use. I don’t know what you use but adding an overlay footage should not be very difficult. 

Btw, maybe the sideways screen might be even better. It allows many more options to be visible. Just tap the one you want to be prominent. 

 

6 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Yes, that is basically it.  Record the screen with audio.  Then do the clapping in the beginning and end to use that as a sync key.  Different devices will not match up exactly.  So it is important to sync at the end too and be able to retime things.  You can’t believe how much of a drift there is in a few minutes.  Also the inmotion app refresh is pretty darn slow.  

Thanks, gives me so much more appreciation as to how much time it takes for you guys to makes theses videos. Filming is like 25% of the battle! Right now i'm just using the free imovie include with my mac book pro. And all I ever did was trim and put vids together. So much to learn! 

 

[Stan Onymous]

12 minutes ago, Fastmike said:

I did not mean to be if I was... my poor english level! But still, I will be amazed if we were told that is a faulty design, bla bla bla...   ?

Your english is fine, and easily better than many natives. I missed a word while writing. I meant the Overload Message was insulting by essentially calling us fat and itself tired in a more factual way.

[maltocs]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

When I get the Z10 I'm looking forward to testing its overload/over-temp characteristics. The best that I can tell, nobody that has been riding the tester from @Jason McNeil has pushed the wheel yet (Chooch weighs 120-pounds).

I will be doing the 4600-foot climb with the Z10 so that should be very telling on how Ninebot handles the internal heat.

And if @maltocs is up for the adventure, he can ride the Z10 half way up the mountain (while I ride an ACM2). I think with his extra weight the Z10 hill climbing test will be more thorough. Then we can switch wheels so that he can experience the glory of the ACM2 

what? test two premium wheels for the price of one? please don't twist my arm, I'm in. I'm gonna try to attend the meet up on Saturday as well. 

Edited July 10, 2018 by maltocs

[UniVehje]

Looks like all we got was a new hint from InMotion. A cryptic message pointing to the right direction after they saw we were quite lost in search for the answer. Now we know that the cause is the temperature on the heat sink. We don’t know the numbers or if there is room to go higher. It is also unclear in the wording whether there they will raise the trigger temperature or just show a different reading on the app. 

Going uphill is certainly quite demanding for the motor and there will be heat. The wheel is also going slower relative to the power demand and cannot cool down the heat sink so much. But if other wheels can do the same hill at the same speed, then there might be a design flaw. What we don’t know is how hot the other wheels get or how much more V10 could take before something melting. 

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Looks like all we got was a new hint from InMotion. A cryptic message pointing to the right direction after they saw we were quite lost in search for the answer. Now we know that the cause is the temperature on the heat sink. We don’t know the numbers or if there is room to go higher. It is also unclear in the wording whether there they will raise the trigger temperature or just show a different reading on the app. 

Going uphill is certainly quite demanding for the motor and there will be heat. The wheel is also going slower relative to the power demand and cannot cool down the heat sink so much. But if other wheels can do the same hill at the same speed, then there might be a design flaw. What we don’t know is how hot the other wheels get or how much more V10 could take before something melting. 

I think Bob was clearly saying that the App will probably be changed to show the heatsink temperature instead of the processor temperature. He gave no indication that the underlying high temperature was going to be resolved. Why is it always like pulling teeth to get an answer? Getting answers from all of of our wheel manufacturers is pitiful. Must be an Asian cultural thing. 

I can tell you that my Gotway wheels were operating in the mid-60's during most of the 4600-ft climb when the VF10F was Overloading. A couple of times the temperature rose into the low-70's.

Both KingSong and Gotway overheat (tilt-back to force you off the wheel) at ~80-degrees. Until Inmotion exposes the heatsink temperature we won't have the corresponding Inmotion overheat temperature.

[Marty Backe]

35 minutes ago, maltocs said:

what? test two premium wheels for the price of one? please don't twist my arm, I'm in. I'm gonna try to do attend the meet up on Saturday as well. 

Looks like the Z10 will probably not be at the Saturday ride because Chooch has yet to ship it to me - he may have lost it 

But we'll still enjoy a nice ride around the park.

[novazeus]

with air conditioner’s motors, when they first crank up, they can pull a lot of amps, if u shut off ur ac, and try to start it again right after, if it doesn’t have a time delay, it will really strain the motor and pull more amps because it’s under more pressure from the gas it’s trying to push. 

some electricians might install like a 40amp breaker as recommended but a smarter electrician might put in a 30amp breaker, knowing that the motor should never peak over say 22amps at start up. having to flip the breaker to get ur ac going might save ur compressor by alerting u to a problem arising. 

other ac motors might run and run and run and then burn out unexpectedly, usually during a heat wave.

if inmotion is being conservative, i’m fine with that. i’m fat but no mountains to climb.