New Inmotion V10 / V10F

[Gunthor]

Where is the space for the motor? Take a look at the wheel rims that allow you to see the suspension on the other side! Looks cool, but I think it is nothing more than a design study

[z3n]

16 hours ago, Bobwheel said:

I wrote some insights of InMotion V10 here:

https://www.myinmotion.com/blogs/news/insights-inmotion-v10

So... this idea works indeed! 

 

[Esash]

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It looks nice, but:

• Must be the least ergonomic design I've ever seen. Your ankles and shins sure will love those metal bars Especially in connection with the moving suspension. Cushions are for women! Useless extra weight? Sure!
• Barely any space for battery. A wheel like this can't have only 800Wh or so.
• Pedals might as well be made from ice, as slippery as they look. (Ok, might be an afterthought in this early concept phase.)
• The motorsport/automotive/combustion engine design style is just off. Electric unicycles are different and should have their unique look, determined by their technical design, and not look like some unspecified part of an old motorbike fell off. The Ninebot One Z is showing the way in this respect (one does not have to like its design, but it is not a derivative of something unrelated). No fake cooling grills, pistons, ... , please.
• For real offroad (mountains, going up and particularly down steep inclines) 18 inches might be too unwieldy? I'd instinctively go with 16 inches instead for torque and controllability (less is too small for bumps and general unevenness).

So in my view, good call Inmotion didn't build this. While I love the general concept of an extreme offroad/power wheel, this would have needed a massive amount of further development (euphemism for "Start again, and make sense this time!") to get a realistically good result (it is an early concept, I don't blame it for its shortcomings, but it's more like a concept on what to avoid).

In fact, the V10(F) is already halfway there. All is needed is doubling down:

• V10 is basically the V8 shell (widened) with the tire pushed downwards out of it, to give greater pedal height. (I'm getting the impression the side panel molds from the V8 were reused and the design was made to accomodate this).
  So? Push the tire 5cm further out of the shell. Even higher pedals and ground clearances.
• That also gives more space for battery on the top. Make the body wider so the sides can have batteries too like most other wheels, and that's plenty of space for these sweet Wh.
• It's already 16 inches with a strong motor. Make it even stronger (and wider?) if you like.
• Evolve electronics, cables etc. for even higher stresses.
• Add suspension (might be easier said than done). Or skip it and go with big, high friction, easily leg-grabbable side cushions for better hold on the pedals when needed.

That would work better than the above concept. Call it V12 and call it a day

By the way, @Bobwheel really great to have company representatives (the bosses, even) have such good community involvement!

I fully agree with you Meep. The V10F is already the best off-road wheel on the market by a sizable margin as far as I can tell. So how can people say they made a mistake when they just knocked it out of the frickin' ballpark?

Marty Backe just went up Overheat Hill with the V10F with the pedal to the metal, so to speak, 2-4 times as fast/hard as he pushed the KS18S up that same hill. Yes the V10F eventually tilted back because of overheating, but that's probably just because Marty was gunning it so hard for so long up the hill. With one or two 3 second breaks off the throttle, the V10F probably would have made it up the hill without tilt-backe, and in a much faster time than any other wheel.

Marty is still scared to put his ACM2's and Tesla through the same Overheat Hill test he just put the V10F through, because of justified fear of blowing out another mosfit.

Then on the downhills, the V10F handled with 80% of the agility of a 14" wheel, but with much much much better wheel clearance, which actually basically means more agility and fearlessness to carve left and right on the downhill trails. 

Unfortunately Marty only had a couple days with the V10F, and his EUC buying spree has already been completed. Otherwise I'm convinced the V10F would have become his favorite off-road wheel, and would have handled anything SoCal could have thrown at it.

I also suspect that when the Z10 disappoints real mountain men like Marty Backe, their minds will drift backe to the V10F and wonder, "what if?"

I suspect the Z10 will go down as another soccer mom status symbol, like the Chevy Suburban. And I suspect InMotion actually surpassed the mountain performance of their 18" concept wheel with the V10F and its superior practicality.

Never send a fat 18" dairy cow to do the job of a 16" billy goat.

 

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Oh common @meepmeepmayer! Where's your sense of excitement and wonder for this awesome looking wheel? Do you work in marketing? 

  Exactly!  Every time I look at that concept rendering I start getting a little erection then meep's like all wheel blocking me.    Das Germans.  SMH!

[Esash]

Maybe they ran into issues with patent trolls

[Esash]

If InMotion tries to out-do the V10F and make an even better off-road wheel, all they need to do is make the V10F taller, not fatter, to fit another row of batteries on top of the existing row of batteries. Give it more of a KS-18 shape, with seat, but still ultra-narrow for superior agility.

And knobby tires, of course. That's a wheel you could climb big mountains with.

[meepmeepmayer]

23 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

  Exactly!  Every time I look at that concept rendering I start getting a little erection then meep's like all wheel blocking me.    Das Germans.  SMH!

I just have higher standards for manliness erection duration. Something that actually works. In other words,

M

SUPER

X

14 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

If InMotion tries to out-do the V10F and make an even better off-road wheel, all they need to do is make the V10F taller, not fatter, to fit another row of batteries on top of the existing row of batteries. Give it more of a KS-18 shape, with seat, but still ultra-narrow for superior agility.

And knobby tires, of course. That's a wheel you could climb big mountains with.

I have the suspicion that one reason @Marty Backe didn't buy one is that he (like me) prefers the wide GW stance. I think that allows better maneuverability because you have a higher range of control movements - from super slight leg pressure to full workout style upper body movement. If the V10(F) rides like the V8, it's very reactive, maybe too much - everything can be done by legs only. So less fine control. A wider stance should also offer more automatic comfort/forgiveness because it's less sensitive to inputs. Just like you wouldn't take a reactive sports car up an offroad mountain road, probably only fun for so long before it gets tiring.

Pure guess. Didn't try the V10, obviously.

Edited April 23, 2018 by meepmeepmayer

[Esash]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I just have higher standards for manliness erection duration. Something that actually works. In other words,

M

SUPER

X

I have the suspicion that one reason @Marty Backe didn't buy one is that he (like me) prefers the wide GW stance. I think that allows better maneuverability because you have a higher range of control movements - from super slight leg pressure to full workout style upper body movement. If the V10(F) rides like the V8, it's very reactive, maybe too much - everything can be done by legs only. So less fine control. A wider stance should also offer more automatic comfort/forgiveness because it's less sensitive to inputs. Just like you wouldn't take a reactive sports car up an offroad mountain road, probably only fun for so long before it gets tiring.

Pure guess. Didn't try the V10, obviously.

Yeah the narrow stance probably isn't best at high speeds, but for navigating rocks, roots, bumps, and holes in the surface at lower speeds, on rougher trails, the narrow stance is probably far superior. That's why Marty prefers the KS14S for the most difficult trails. The 18" wheels absorb bumps better, but they don't avoid bumps better.

Mountain roads vs mountain trails. Very different surfaces. Mountain trails would get tiring after a while no matter what wheel you're on.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Scouts Honor

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Scouts Honor said:

Yeah the narrow stance probably isn't best at high speeds, but for navigating rocks, roots, bumps, and holes in the surface at lower speeds, on rougher trails, the narrow stance is probably far superior.

Haven't tested whether that is true, but the better control argument for a wider stance always works.

1 hour ago, Scouts Honor said:

That's why Marty prefers the KS14S for the most difficult trails.

I think that's just because 14 inches is inherently more maneuverable. Smaller tire.

1 hour ago, Scouts Honor said:

Mountain roads vs mountain trails. Very different surfaces. Mountain trails would get tiring after a while no matter what wheel you're on.

That was just an analogy, can't take a car on a trail. But it still matters whether the wheel "eats" bumps in terms of directional stability, or whether you have to carefully maneuver all the time. Bit like going with a small tire vs a bigger one.

[FreeRide]

12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Since the wheel body itself (= the gyro sensor) isn't suspended, not necessarily. Everything should work as usual, at least in theory. The only thing to test is whether the suspension can produce self-reinforcing oscillations in forward backward tilt due to some automatic reaction by the rider, so if that creates some kind of wobble, maybe an adaption is needed to prevent uncomfortable riding that the suspension/rider might mechanically introduce.

@Joey Serrin did some self-builds with suspension, and I don't think he did (or even could) modify the firmware.

 

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I've seen a modified existing EUC with heavy suspension like this. The firmware was not modified and it worked fine.

Interesting.  I'm not quite convinced yet.  The pedals are the controls and if the control now has some dampening I think there must be some adjustment to the input processing.  Similar to the software controlled ride-modes, but different enough since the signal itself is affected, not just the output in response to the signal.  The dampening cannot of force vectors that i just perpendicular to the surface and I thing they will affect the input of intentional inputs and those false/unintended one generated by the terrain through the suspension system.

Maybe someone who has ridden such a wheel could comment on how the wheel responds under different conditions.

Edited April 23, 2018 by FreeRide

[FreeRide]

3 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

.... The V10F is already the best off-road wheel on the market by a sizable margin as far as I can tell. So how can people say they made a mistake when they just knocked it out of the frickin' ballpark?

.....

+1  -- it definitely looks like a winner so far.  I won't call it the best off-road wheel, or the best street wheel... too many variables that are subjective, but they killed-it none the less.

[Esash]

15 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

+1  -- it definitely looks like a winner so far.  I won't call it the best off-road wheel, or the best street wheel... too many variables that are subjective, but they killed-it none the less.

It's the off-road wheel you can introduce to your mother, and ride into church Sunday morning.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, FreeRide said:

 

Interesting.  I'm not quite convinced yet.  The pedals are the controls and if the control now has some dampening I think there must be some adjustment to the input processing.  Similar to the software controlled ride-modes, but different enough since the signal itself is affected, not just the output in response to the signal.  The dampening cannot of force vectors that i just perpendicular to the surface and I thing they will affect the input of intentional inputs and those false/unintended one generated by the terrain through the suspension system.

Maybe someone who has ridden such a wheel could comment on how the wheel responds under different conditions.

I wish I could show you the video, but it's not mine to show. Trust me, the firmware was not changed yet it can ride over a railroad-tie with little affect. Looks like a monstrosity because it's a hacked up prototype to demonstrate proof-of-concept, but it works.

It might be a few years, but I do think we'll eventually see something along the lines of this Inmotion concept. 

[novazeus]

anybody that pre-ordered and paid for a v10f hear anything about inmotion shipping the first wheels out?

[Esash]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

anybody that pre-ordered and paid for a v10f hear anything about inmotion shipping the first wheels out?

Yeah, contact Jason ASAP to arrange air freight delivery, which will cut 2-3 weeks off delivery time. I think he said 1st batch ready to leave factory in a week.

 

 

[novazeus]

55 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

Yeah, contact Jason ASAP to arrange air freight delivery, which will cut 2-3 weeks off delivery time. I think he said 1st batch ready to leave factory in a week.

 

 

i did this deal with inmotion:

On 3/27/2018 at 3:06 AM, RoseInMotion said:

We need to air ship a limited quantity of V10s for media and reviews, so we are thinking of also air shipping some extra units for our first batch of pre-orders. 

The first shipment will probably depart around April 10th, and it should take about 10 days to arrive in San Diego, which means arrival will be around April 20th. 

We haven't got an exact number of how many we can get from the factory for the first batch,  but we'll ship out to customers according to our pre-order sequence, which means the earliest birds have a chance to be the first to receive the V10, the most powerful model that InMotion ever made, by April 20th.

Want to be the first to receive your V10? Reserve now! https://www.ridev10.com

 

[EUCMania]

8 hours ago, z3n said:

 

 

After taking a second look at the InMotion concept model, I see that there are several good parts involved can be used for next InMotion model: a) The bars to increase structure strength, with cover panel attached on them. b) The suspensions are too big. Make them shorter and attached to the lower bars to save space and cost. The current pedal vertical bar can be made into sliding piston with a rectangular cross-section to allow vertical motion only so that rider's foot pressing on the pedal can be transmitted to the EUC body. Or you can put the gyro sensor on the base of pedal attachment encased in the solid metal the keep the pedal horizontal. This way, some play in the piston does not affect the rider's control.

[WaveCut]

Common mistake: pedals aren't supposed to be suspended - motor is to be. And there is where the tough part of task begins... [/offtopic]

Edited April 24, 2018 by WaveCut

[Demargon]

6 minutes ago, WaveCut said:

pedals aren't supposed to be suspended - motor is to be. 

Thaks for answer. Then instead in the hub, the motor is in the top, behind the light. Lot of weight less and more resistant design. Many engineers do the same because the hub motors are exposed continuosly to bumps and vibrations.

how the transmission would be working in that design?

[FreeRide]

19 hours ago, WaveCut said:

Common mistake: pedals aren't supposed to be suspended - motor is to be. And there is where the tough part of task begins... [/offtopic]

Yes! A 5 spoke or morewheel design with each one having suspension, and then aluminum wheel covers sounds awesome!

[z3n]

I still very much prefer EUC to float. No suspension would be needed at all. 

[EUCMania]

23 hours ago, WaveCut said:

Common mistake: pedals aren't supposed to be suspended - motor is to be. And there is where the tough part of task begins... [/offtopic]

As long as hub motor is used, the motor cannot be suspended unless one uses a complicated transmission., 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

18 hours ago, EUCMania said:

As long as hub motor is used, the motor cannot be suspended unless one uses a complicated transmission., 

What if the hub was sprung?

I own a 1954 Triumph Thunderbird, which is one of the first years that had a swing arm... For a long time before that they had rigid frames and a sprung hub...

 

Could that be incorporated into an EUC???

[Scatcat]

10 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

What if the hub was sprung?

I own a 1954 Triumph Thunderbird, which is one of the first years that had a swing arm... For a long time before that they had rigid frames and a sprung hub...

 

Could that be incorporated into an EUC???

Well, yes, probably - but it would introduce a few challenges.

1. The bearings would have to be much larger, to allow some travel inside the bearing.
2. There would have to be a way to make the suspension water tight, or we would get water into an electric motor, with is contraindicated (to say the least)
3. As on the Triumph, we would have to have some means to avoid the suspension starting to rotate with the wheel - some form of arm or the like.

But it is certainly a very interesting idea.

[eddiemoy]

2 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

What if the hub was sprung?

I own a 1954 Triumph Thunderbird, which is one of the first years that had a swing arm... For a long time before that they had rigid frames and a sprung hub...

 

Could that be incorporated into an EUC???

I would be more worried about the motor wire that goes through the now bouncing hub.  First thing to fail?