Esash Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, EUCMania said: This year will be an interesting year for EUCs. Dual CPU has nothing to do with dual driving systems. Just like my 8-core computer, if just one capacitor is blown, the computer dies. IPS has a dual motor wheel coming out, as mentioned above. Not sure if this InMotion wheel will have dual motors though. Jason McNeil "They gave me short presentation of their new 14" Wheel, which will be complementary addition to the I5, known as the S5—pictures to follow in a few weeks, when it's officially announced. For those wanting to have the 'Safest Wheel', or one that might meet a future European criterion for safety, this may be the Wheel for you!" Quote Single Wheel but with two completely independent motors Dual battery pack (consisting of 32x (total) 21700 cells) with separate inputs to the board A board that is fault-tolerant & can take a single MOSFET failure, because the two motors are working independently of each other Magnesium alloy shell that's built like a tank, 3.5mm thick, vs. 1.5 on the i5 Probably the best App of any Wheel manufacturer, no social non-sense just what you need for configuration the Wheel & viewing vital stats What's particularly cool about the S5 interface, is that because the redundant systems run completely independent of each other, the power, battery, range stats are shown on two columns, you get a complete insight on what's going on inside I think it's quite an attractive Wheel, think of the I5, but thicker with tastefully furnished LED strips running vertically on each corner There's supposed to be other advantages to having a dual-motor, increased torque over a range of RPMs (presumably because the combined stators are wider) & a greater efficiency Weight is around 15kg, considering all the built-in redundancy, this is quite an achievement Then there's the BMS: this thing has temperature sensors, each of the cells voltage is monitored separately in the App, also incorporates a lot of scenario protections for reducing the risk of fire or other mishaps Edited March 30, 2018 by Scouts Honor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARPed1701D Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: Not to rub it in, but my V10F is expected in the next 30 minutes. I can appreciate the Customer's vantage point of the frustration with the sometimes incompetent delivery services; in this case UPS, where it's taken them a full week to deliver the package within the city. Have to admit that I really cannot recall feeling so much eagerness to receive a new Wheel. I'm bound under NDA not to give the game away too early, but based on what Inmotion have disclosed so far, this has got to be as close to Wheel perfection as it's possible to get with current technology, just hope the App experience can match this stunning new hardware. zomg! This is going to be a long wait to release! Especially with this trickle of official information. The only thing I know it doesn't have that I wish it did is an 18" wheel. I was certain that if I decide to stick with EUC's rather than defect to eBikes then I would be getting an 18" wheel next. Z10 or an 18S was on the radar but IF this wheel has redundancy coupled with Inmotion build quality then based on my V8 experience so far I'd have to get the V10. Yours is due tomorrow huh? So....Miami is only 5 hours away. I fancy a weekend in the city. British Expat meet up @Jason McNeil? Edited March 30, 2018 by WARPed1701D 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esash Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 25 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said: zomg! This is going to be a long wait to release! Especially with this trickle of official information. The only think I know it doesn't have that I wish it did is an 18" wheel. I was certain that if I decide to stick with EUC's rather than defect to eBikes then I would be getting an 18" wheel next. Z10 or an 18S was on the radar but IF this wheel has redundancy coupled with Inmotion build quality then based on my V8 experience so far I'd have to get the V10. Yours is due tomorrow huh? So....Miami is only 5 hours away. I fancy a weekend in the city. British Expat meet up @Jason McNeil? With the thicker 2.5" wheel, it should ride like a 17" wheel 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said: With the thicker 2.5" wheel, it should ride like a 17" wheel Just like an IPS 191 Lhotz then... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esash Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: Just like an IPS 191 Lhotz then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said: That's the one... Off road or on loose metal this wheel is fantastic! And where are you @MaxLinux??? Edited March 30, 2018 by The Fat Unicyclist 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esash Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 22 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: That's the one... Off road or on loose metal this wheel is fantastic! And where are you @MaxLinux??? Quote Posted (e) Wednesday at 10:28 Do you recognize that? : It is a simple ks16, shell cut / raised, equipped with a tire 16x2.5 inches. Well InMotion offers it basic (we can drop the jigsaw), and it's a very good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post US69 Posted March 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2018 Ok, thats for sure not what everybody wants to read...but: I totally doubt that we see any kindof Real redundancy EUC in the foreseeable future. From my point of view this is just not possible on an EUC. The only SBU that has a real redundancy is the original Segway. What it CAN do in case of Mosfet failure, is to bring you down to a stop...thats all. What you have to keep in mind, on a Segway you are only driving Max 20kmh AND most important, you dont lean in like on an EUC. In fact you just push the steering rod forward, but dont lean over like on an EUC. Why is that important? In case of an Mosfet failure, the wheel will block!! That means that a PCB had to change to second motor, before the defect switch message of the blown Mosfet reaches the wheel at all. To say it a bit overdrawn: The Pcb has to react even before a failure occures. That might work on a slow 2 wheel, but i higly doibt that on a 40kmh one wheel, where the smallest interruption of magnet working or blockage will send you flying over the wheel! Also a sudden halving of power would send you flying, which would mean that on a Real redunnciy wheel you always would work with only half available power, cause the other half of power would need to take over in case of fault. How much would such a wheel wheight? There are several other aspects that also makes a “real redundancy” kind of impossible for an euc.....but i dont want to write a bestseller here. Dont get me wrong: I am all for failsafe wheels, but if you really dig in to this, its just not working, and i wont believe any marketing stunts like “2 core” (Sorry, just misleading) before one of those companies shows that in a real life scenario....for example switching from one “system/motor/board/mosfetrow” to the other while accelerating and leaning in for example at 30kmh or more..... 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeRide Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 50 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: ..... AND most important, you dont lean in like on an EUC. In fact you just push the steering rod forward, but dont lean over like on an EUC ...... I don't think this is correct. I only rode a real segway for less than 2min way back when they first came out and my memory of that first experience is fuzzy, but my Ninebot Elite I believe works basically the say way, shifting your weight forward and backward is how you control it, one leans forward to go forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kael Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 8 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: Not to rub it in, but my V10F is expected in the next 30 minutes. I can appreciate the Customer's vantage point of the frustration with the sometimes incompetent delivery services; in this case UPS, where it's taken them a full week to deliver the package within the city. Have to admit that I really cannot recall feeling so much eagerness to receive a new Wheel. I'm bound under NDA not to give the game away too early, but based on what Inmotion have disclosed so far, this has got to be as close to Wheel perfection as it's possible to get with current technology, just hope the App experience can match this stunning new hardware. But it’s still a 16” wheel. The Z10 feels like the biggest paradigm shift, provided it actually rides well. Still, price might be a limiting factor there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em1barns Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 9 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: Not to rub it in, but my V10F is expected in the next 30 minutes. I can appreciate the Customer's vantage point of the frustration with the sometimes incompetent delivery services; in this case UPS, where it's taken them a full week to deliver the package within the city. Have to admit that I really cannot recall feeling so much eagerness to receive a new Wheel. I'm bound under NDA not to give the game away too early, but based on what Inmotion have disclosed so far, this has got to be as close to Wheel perfection as it's possible to get with current technology, just hope the App experience can match this stunning new hardware. Holly Jesus, you are killing us. Anything you can share at all, if only impressions? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 9 hours ago, Vik's said: The most important thing you forgot is: ok you nailed that one...next in line.... dual core? can it play Crisis 2? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meepmeepmayer Posted March 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, WARPed1701D said: As discussed already the ultimate in redundancy (as used in aviation) would be three (or more) independent systems which vote on the correct course of action for particular inputs with a majority making a decision but this would be overkill for an EUC at this stage. 4 hours ago, KingSong69 said: Ok, thats for sure not what everybody wants to read...but: I totally doubt that we see any kindof Real redundancy EUC in the foreseeable future. From my point of view this is just not possible on an EUC. The only SBU that has a real redundancy is the original Segway. What it CAN do in case of Mosfet failure, is to bring you down to a stop...thats all. What you have to keep in mind, on a Segway you are only driving Max 20kmh AND most important, you dont lean in like on an EUC. In fact you just push the steering rod forward, but dont lean over like on an EUC. Why is that important? In case of an Mosfet failure, the wheel will block!! That means that a PCB had to change to second motor, before the defect switch message of the blown Mosfet reaches the wheel at all. To say it a bit overdrawn: The Pcb has to react even before a failure occures. That might work on a slow 2 wheel, but i higly doibt that on a 40kmh one wheel, where the smallest interruption of magnet working or blockage will send you flying over the wheel! Also a sudden halving of power would send you flying, which would mean that on a Real redunnciy wheel you always would work with only half available power, cause the other half of power would need to take over in case of fault. How much would such a wheel wheight? There are several other aspects that also makes a “real redundancy” kind of impossible for an euc.....but i dont want to write a bestseller here. Dont get me wrong: I am all for failsafe wheels, but if you really dig in to this, its just not working, and i wont believe any marketing stunts like “2 core” (Sorry, just misleading) before one of those companies shows that in a real life scenario....for example switching from one “system/motor/board/mosfetrow” to the other while accelerating and leaning in for example at 30kmh or more..... Good post @KingSong69! And quite frankly, redundancy is overrated. When were there EVER any hardware problems (faceplant relevant) that weren't blown mosfets or melted (too thin) cabling (not even a capacitor blowing is that bad)? Even with all sketchy prototype level China QC wheels until today? Good technical design and good and suitably sized (BIG) components are all we really need. If they want to make a system where one mosfet (critical piece) blowing won't lead to a fall, or the battery packs have some backup plans in case of a dead cell, or there are doubled control wires for the motor or anything, fine, why not! But 2 or even 3 independent boards (essentially)? Multiple (heavy!) electric motors in a light one wheel device? I'd rather pay for one EUC and get one, instead of paying for 3 and geting one (or none, because I can't afford it then or it's shitty). There are reasonable safety precautions (based on facts until today), and there are overblown ones that might as well be designed to make "real" EUCs infeasible or needlessly overdesigned, heavy, expensive, impractical, and ultimately worse . Edited March 30, 2018 by meepmeepmayer 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik's Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Unventor said: dual core? can it play Crisis 2? Barely... and only on low settings cause the second core will get busy holding you upright and rolling 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 10 hours ago, KingSong69 said: Ok, thats for sure not what everybody wants to read...but: I totally doubt that we see any kindof Real redundancy EUC in the foreseeable future. From my point of view this is just not possible on an EUC. The only SBU that has a real redundancy is the original Segway. What it CAN do in case of Mosfet failure, is to bring you down to a stop...thats all. What you have to keep in mind, on a Segway you are only driving Max 20kmh AND most important, you dont lean in like on an EUC. In fact you just push the steering rod forward, but dont lean over like on an EUC. Why is that important? In case of an Mosfet failure, the wheel will block!! That means that a PCB had to change to second motor, before the defect switch message of the blown Mosfet reaches the wheel at all. To say it a bit overdrawn: The Pcb has to react even before a failure occures. That might work on a slow 2 wheel, but i higly doibt that on a 40kmh one wheel, where the smallest interruption of magnet working or blockage will send you flying over the wheel! Also a sudden halving of power would send you flying, which would mean that on a Real redunnciy wheel you always would work with only half available power, cause the other half of power would need to take over in case of fault. How much would such a wheel wheight? There are several other aspects that also makes a “real redundancy” kind of impossible for an euc.....but i dont want to write a bestseller here. Dont get me wrong: I am all for failsafe wheels, but if you really dig in to this, its just not working, and i wont believe any marketing stunts like “2 core” (Sorry, just misleading) before one of those companies shows that in a real life scenario....for example switching from one “system/motor/board/mosfetrow” to the other while accelerating and leaning in for example at 30kmh or more..... I think you underestimate the speed of computers. It would be very easy for a modern computer to sense a fault and switch to redundant hardware between hall sensor activation's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I think you underestimate the speed of computers. It would be very easy for a modern computer to sense a fault and switch to redundant hardware between hall sensor activation's. And i guess you underestimate the numbers of switchs that our Mosfets are doing and the speed of electricity.... :-) But main thing is that you need all double...double motor”magnetring”...double battery, double board. In the example of the IpS announcement that would mean that the wheel always works with half of the cells in general, as the others are needed for taking over....They announced 2 totally independent running systems.... And if not independant running and instead both systems are working in the same time, then guess while you are accekerating using 80% of the available battery power and suddenly half of this power is gone from one nanosecond to the other. I would say that would lead to a decent pedalweakness that results in a faceplant. I am not saying that all this is not possible to have redundancy...but i guess its not able to have a powerhorse like for example the ACM - still with “only” 19kg...and also.with redundancy! It would come out to a 25-28kg wheel because you need much more batterys to have the same wheel but with redundance in battery. And i guess you would be the first who would say “No” if his ACM would only have half power/half speed, but therefore redundancy :-) Whatever: As i am all in for security and reliability i like the approach IPS is having.....The IM announcement of “2core” is just marketing speech for me, as next they announce a good cooling system :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esash Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 9 hours ago, Kael said: But it’s still a 16” wheel. The Z10 feels like the biggest paradigm shift, provided it actually rides well. Still, price might be a limiting factor there. If the Z10 can't climb hills well, they can keep their paradigm shift. And it might be as agile as a steam boat. I got a feeling it's going to ride a lot like the Monster, without the battery capacity or seat. Not sure how much of a paradigm shift that's going to be. The 4" wheel is certainly novel, but we'll see if it's more than a novelty act. Marty Backe will certainly put it through its paces. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 19 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said: If the Z10 can't climb hills well, they can keep their paradigm shift. And it might be as agile as a steam boat. I got a feeling it's going to ride a lot like the Monster, without the battery capacity or seat. Not sure how much of a paradigm shift that's going to be. The 4" wheel is certainly novel, but we'll see if it's more than a novelty act. Marty Backe will certainly put it through its paces. The MTen3 has a wide tyre, and it is supposed to be about the most maneuverable and controllable EUC there is. I don't think the wide tyre in itself will be a problem in terms of agility. Of course it would be more agile at 16" or even 14", but the 18" will probably provide a bit more stability at speed and be more in line with the width. It does have a pretty strong motor, and the battery might not have as high capacity as the MS3S+ or Moster, but it is by no means a small battery. I think it is more likely to ride like a MS3 with a bit more stability at speed, in rough terrain and on difficult ground. But we speculate. It will be very interesting to see how the thing actually rides when it hits the market. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted March 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2018 @Scouts Honor FYI there was an anti big wheel (18” x 2.5” was the biggest at the time) majority sentiment back 2 years ago on the forums, all based on riders who had never actually owned an 18” wheel, saying it would be too big and unwieldy, etc. After the MSuperV3 dropped, I don’t see much of those guys complaining these days. And now this nonsense about how 4” will be too wide. I’ll keep preaching this: as long as we have no suspension systems for EUC, wider tires are a must for us bad street riders to cushion the divots, wider the better. Sure, if you have perfect pavement, you can go super thin, ala an i5, doesn’t matter. But try seeing how you enjoy riding that thin wheel when accidentally hitting potholes you can hide small babies and animals in. Also, all the guys saying “too wide” sure don’t mention how concave the Z’s tire shape / surface is (less of the 4” width actually contacting the ground unless there is bigger impact), as opposed to a laterally flat surface tire, like with most car tires. 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esash Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, Scatcat said: The MTen3 has a wide tyre, and it is supposed to be about the most maneuverable and controllable EUC there is. I don't think the wide tyre in itself will be a problem in terms of agility. Of course it would be more agile at 16" or even 14", but the 18" will probably provide a bit more stability at speed and be more in line with the width. It does have a pretty strong motor, and the battery might not have as high capacity as the MS3S+ or Moster, but it is by no means a small battery. I think it is more likely to ride like a MS3 with a bit more stability at speed, in rough terrain and on difficult ground. But we speculate. It will be very interesting to see how the thing actually rides when it hits the market. MTen3 is a 10" wheel. MUCH higher instant torque in a wheel that small. 18" with super fat tire will ride like a 21-22" wheel. But we'll know for sure soon hopefully. It will be a nice, comfortable cruiser over rough or smooth terrain. Like the Monster. That's my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 56 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: And i guess you underestimate the numbers of switchs that our Mosfets are doing and the speed of electricity.... :-) But main thing is that you need all double...double motor”magnetring”...double battery, double board. In the example of the IpS announcement that would mean that the wheel always works with half of the cells in general, as the others are needed for taking over....They announced 2 totally independent running systems.... And if not independant running and instead both systems are working in the same time, then guess while you are accekerating using 80% of the available battery power and suddenly half of this power is gone from one nanosecond to the other. I would say that would lead to a decent pedalweakness that results in a faceplant. I am not saying that all this is not possible to have redundancy...but i guess its not able to have a powerhorse like for example the ACM - still with “only” 19kg...and also.with redundancy! It would come out to a 25-28kg wheel because you need much more batterys to have the same wheel but with redundance in battery. And i guess you would be the first who would say “No” if his ACM would only have half power/half speed, but therefore redundancy :-) Whatever: As i am all in for security and reliability i like the approach IPS is having.....The IM announcement of “2core” is just marketing speech for me, as next they announce a good cooling system :-) I'm not saying it's easy, and probably not doable by the folks making our wheels, but it's not rocket science. I doubt our MOSFETs are operating above 50-khz. That gives 20 microseconds for a CPU to do meaningful work between each MOSFET activation. That's an eternity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, houseofjob said: @Scouts Honor FYI there was an anti big wheel (18” x 2.5” was the biggest at the time) majority sentiment back 2 years ago on the forums, all based on riders who had never actually owned an 18” wheel, saying it would be too big and unwieldy, etc. After the MSuperV3 dropped, I don’t see much of those guys complaining these days. And now this nonsense about how 4” will be too wide. I’ll keep preaching this: as long as we have no suspension systems for EUC, wider tires are a must for us bad street riders to cushion the divots, wider the better. Sure, if you have perfect pavement, you can go super thin, ala an i5, doesn’t matter. But try seeing how you enjoy riding that thin wheel when accidentally hitting potholes you can hide small babies and animals in. Also, all the guys saying “too wide” sure don’t mention how concave the Z’s tire shape / surface is (less of the 4” width actually contacting the ground unless there is bigger impact), as opposed to a laterally flat surface tire, like with most car tires. That would be convex wouldn't it But i agree totally. I would really love the damping of a wider tyre. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, Scatcat said: That would be convex wouldn't it Probably. I was looking for the proper tire terminology but couldn’t find it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 6 hours ago, houseofjob said: @Scouts Honor FYI there was an anti big wheel (18” x 2.5” was the biggest at the time) majority sentiment back 2 years ago on the forums, all based on riders who had never actually owned an 18” wheel, saying it would be too big and unwieldy, etc. After the MSuperV3 dropped, I don’t see much of those guys complaining these days. And now this nonsense about how 4” will be too wide. I’ll keep preaching this: as long as we have no suspension systems for EUC, wider tires are a must for us bad street riders to cushion the divots, wider the better. Sure, if you have perfect pavement, you can go super thin, ala an i5, doesn’t matter. But try seeing how you enjoy riding that thin wheel when accidentally hitting potholes you can hide small babies and animals in. Also, all the guys saying “too wide” sure don’t mention how concave the Z’s tire shape / surface is (less of the 4” width actually contacting the ground unless there is bigger impact), as opposed to a laterally flat surface tire, like with most car tires. I've been a big advocate of not just a wider tire design but the tubeless wider tire that the Z series offers. I'm disappointed that the V10 is looking more like a well-repackaged V8. I'm not hating on it; the changes are nice, but they're refinements on a prior design. My dream was that it would have a 3" wide tubeless design, but that was wishful thinking. We talk about redundancy in electronics for better safety, but that's irrelevant compared to the potential safety benefit of having twice the surface area of tire contacting the pavement at a lower pressure. When Rehab went down with accident and was saying he was done, my suggestion was to wait for the Z10 because I really believe it will be a jump forward in safety and will eventually be implemented by all the major manufacturers. I'm kinda surprised that Gotway hasn't responded with something designed to siphon some of those customers. They seem like the producer that is able to respond to changing market conditions most quickly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post em1barns Posted March 31, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2018 48h with his V10F, and still no news of @Jason McNeil, am I the only one to worry? ? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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