maltocs Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 6 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Here’s some interesting reading about heat resistant MOSFETs: https://www.digikey.ca/en/articles/techzone/2013/oct/mosfets-that-can-take-the-heat Some MOSFETs have pretty high operating ratings. I think @esaj mentioned that the datasheets on these tend to exaggerate the operating specifications, but I wonder if the higher quality ones meant for aerospace/aviation/military could be better engineered. Would people mind paying $400 for a control board instead of $200 as long as it can operate up to 150°C and tackle the steepest hill climbs with a 200 lb rider? I think most people riding these aren’t likely climbing really steep inclines routinely so they make the boards “good enough” just like how cars don’t all need AWD and don’t need Hummer/Landrover/Jeep climbing abilities. That is not to say that EUC manufacturers shouldn’t produce an EUC Hummer version since there is a part of the marketplace that needs it. It’s just that likely 90% are fine with the basic MOSFET specs. 10% need that military/aviation class extreme usage spec so they should make a heavy duty EUC dedicated to that. It is interesting though that even with the apparent extra engineering that goes into InMotion and King Song wheels that Gotway has the MCM5 among other models that can tackle the same hills with fewer issues. What’s the secret sauce? More lax firmware limitations? When purchased in bulk, i think the mosfets they use in our EUCs are only a few bucks a piece, so better mosfets can't be THAT much more. There must be another reason, like size, and therefore reenginnering and different molds. If it was as simple as a direct replacement during the manufacturing process, it absolutely would make sense to make a "tough" version and charge a bit more, like the TRD version of Toyotas. But as you mentioned and probably statistically correct, 90% of us (me NOT being one of them) will probably be okay with what they've designed, probably very happy in fact. Which means their accountants crunched the numbers and it makes no financial sense to engineer for the 10% of us. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBIKER_SURFER Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 8 hours ago, maltocs said: But as you mentioned and probably statistically correct, 90% of us (me NOT being one of them) will probably be okay with what they've designed, probably very happy in fact. Which means their accountants crunched the numbers and it makes no financial sense to engineer for the 10% of us. F.i. - me. I don't need a V10 with steep hills characteristics. But a wheel, without the other issues - in my case: Forward tilt (roughly 15°) in first turn after riding longer than 20 seconds Max speed in classic mode and so on. The issues are mentioned in this thread already extensively.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demargon Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) In one of my few riding with short pants I fell the shell of the v10f getting hot very quickly. That's in sandy beach were the wheel make a lot of effort to keep moving. Since then I try to ride keeping a small gap between the shell and the legs to improve the ventilation Edited August 12, 2018 by Demargon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post esaj Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2018 18 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Here’s some interesting reading about heat resistant MOSFETs: https://www.digikey.ca/en/articles/techzone/2013/oct/mosfets-that-can-take-the-heat Some MOSFETs have pretty high operating ratings. I think @esaj mentioned that the datasheets on these tend to exaggerate the operating specifications, but I wonder if the higher quality ones meant for aerospace/aviation/military could be better engineered. Would people mind paying $400 for a control board instead of $200 as long as it can operate up to 150°C and tackle the steepest hill climbs with a 200 lb rider? I think most people riding these aren’t likely climbing really steep inclines routinely so they make the boards “good enough” just like how cars don’t all need AWD and don’t need Hummer/Landrover/Jeep climbing abilities. That is not to say that EUC manufacturers shouldn’t produce an EUC Hummer version since there is a part of the marketplace that needs it. It’s just that likely 90% are fine with the basic MOSFET specs. 10% need that military/aviation class extreme usage spec so they should make a heavy duty EUC dedicated to that. It is interesting though that even with the apparent extra engineering that goes into InMotion and King Song wheels that Gotway has the MCM5 among other models that can tackle the same hills with fewer issues. What’s the secret sauce? More lax firmware limitations? Might be that InMotions use higher resistance mosfets that heat up more during use, their cooling is inadequate and/or they just have set the temperature warnings to more conservative values. In the motor drive (inverter/half-bridges), one of the key parameters is the Rds(on) (internal resistance of the mosfet conduction path when fully turned on). The devices mentioned in the Digikey-article actually have relatively high R's compared to what most wheels use these day, for example IRFP4110's used at least in many Gotways and Rockwheels are 3.7milliohm typical, 4.5milliohm max, IRFP4368's in at least KS16S's have 1.46 milliohm typical, 1.85 max. Both of these are avalanche-rated and can operate up to 175°C junction temperature, but most values must be derated further with expected temperatures. The wattages and maximum currents listed in the datasheets are in "ideal" conditions, you can't push through continuous current of hundreds of amps or dissipate 370W / 520W in these in real-life conditions. https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/irfp4110pbf.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015356290ec51ffe https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/irfp4368pbf.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a40153562c61512015 There's almost always some sort of trade-offs to make one parameter better in a mosfet (something else gets worse). Like the internal resistance is usually higher for higher voltage rated mosfets, but you can't use 75V max mosfet in a wheel with 20S batteries, for example. Most power mosfets can take up to 175°C, but that's at the junction level, there's always some "thermal resistance" between the junction and the case, heatsink and ambient air surrounding it, so if there's nothing to improve in terms of reducing switching losses (if they're already about as low as they can go, further reduction won't help much at all), either lower resistance mosfets should be used or the heatsinking must be improved (larger/better heatsinks, fans for active cooling, better ventilation of the mainboard compartment, although that comes at the price of loosing some moisture/water resistance). Sure, there probably are even better options than what is used now, or switch to TO-264 -cases for better heat dissipation, but the prices tend to go way up fast (like triple/quadruple when switching to larger cases). Plus it doesn't seem to happen much anymore that the boards blow their mosfets (at least under "normal operating conditions"). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 11 hours ago, maltocs said: When purchased in bulk, i think the mosfets they use in our EUCs are only a few bucks a piece, so better mosfets can't be THAT much more. There must be another reason, like size, and therefore reenginnering and different molds. If it was as simple as a direct replacement during the manufacturing process, it absolutely would make sense to make a "tough" version and charge a bit more, like the TRD version of Toyotas. But as you mentioned and probably statistically correct, 90% of us (me NOT being one of them) will probably be okay with what they've designed, probably very happy in fact. Which means their accountants crunched the numbers and it makes no financial sense to engineer for the 10% of us. Had they marketed the wheel differently perhaps that had set lower expectations. But it's 2018, and when they claim "most advanced electric unicycles" and "industry-leading power" I don't think anyone expects a wheel that performs much worse than the competition in the same type of situations. Add to that that it apparently performs worse than it's predecessor V8 in the same demanding situations (this based on what others have written, I don't have one myself) the promises fall way short. I've yet to suffer from the overloads myself, and am much more concerned with the water ingress issue as autumn is coming here in Sweden and I expect that completely dry days will be few and far between.That being said, they haven't really delivered what they promised - if it's 90% wheel then say that up front. I feel for you mountain trail guys. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 On 8/8/2018 at 10:59 PM, UniVehje said: [..] I’m assuming normally European customers should order from somewhere else. I wish there were InMotion Europe also or just one company representing globally. The team at InMotion USA clearly does the best job at running their marketing and customer relations. The product from a Chinese factory is having some teething issues but their brand management is doing everything right. If they get all the remaining issued ironed out, this will be a killer combination. For what it's worth https://www.imscv.com should be the global company as far as I understand it. Clicking on English on that page brings you to https://www.inmotionworld.com. I've tried to contact them using their form regarding the water ingress issue (since I'm not a Inmotion USA customer), but haven't gotten a response yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBIKER_SURFER Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Nils said: For what it's worth https://www.imscv.com should be the global company as far as I understand it. Clicking on English on that page brings you to https://www.inmotionworld.com. I've tried to contact them using their form regarding the water ingress issue (since I'm not a Inmotion USA customer), but haven't gotten a response yet. Trying to get in touch with inmotion via their page seems to be hopeless. I'm waitung for an answer since 6 weeks. Depsite that, I couldn't select on their page a V10F....... Edited August 12, 2018 by MBIKER_SURFER 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stan Onymous Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) I think its clear that, from the OVERLOAD issues and now the Water ingress issue, InMotion doesnt want people to buy their V10 model. There really is no other explanation for the way they have treated their most Loyal customers. For instance only 4 Pintos caught fire in the entire gas tank fiasco. Thats before and after the recall, 4. So far we have more than four with the OVERLOAD issues on a regular basis on this forum. I have heard of 2 with the water problem serious enough to trigger warranty fixes. I think the 90% are fine with the V10 is way way way over rated. I have not ridden mine in over 2 weeks more than 6 miles. I have 300 miles on the KS18L in that same time period. Sure its not a fatal flaw 90% of the time, but there is always that thought in the back of ones head - Will this be the puddle or sprinkler that will crash my wheel? or Will this trail force me to dismount and restart the Wheel several times? - . If these two things can make it past the Quality Control, what else could have squeaked by unnoticed as well. The V10 becomes a time released ticking time bomb. I just dont see how InMotion thinks this is fun or Worth the money spent... I also cant imagine how anyone would think this is a Safe Vehicle manufacturer if they refuse to fix these issues either. The customers are trusting that a wheel and some circuitry with some code can transport them. That demands a lot of faith. Faith that InMotion seems to not care for these days. Edited August 12, 2018 by Stan Onymous 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MBIKER_SURFER Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2018 30 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said: The V10 becomes a time released ticking time bomb. I feel like this, riding the V10 F. Not all the time - but at the moment, all issues stay as they are. Even the fw bugs - easy to correct - are not handled as they should be. I'm really scared about my invest in the V10F 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 It's sad to read about how many people are disappointed with the V10. I believe I was the only poster to communicate skepticism about this wheel when it was released...reminding me again how I wish we could trade stock in EUC companies. They were able to capitalize on a lot of goodwill from the V5 and V8. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nils Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stan Onymous said: [..] I just dont see how InMotion thinks this is fun or Worth the money spent... I also cant imagine how anyone would think this is a Safe Vehicle manufacturer if they refuse to fix these issues either. The customers are trusting that a wheel and some circuitry with some code can transport them. That demands a lot of faith. Faith that InMotion seems to not care for these days. Yes, it doesn't seem like the best way of managing customer relations, does it? Overload issue: No comments from IM that I've seen (did I miss something?), release of a new riding mode which even on their own paper is worse on all accounts compared to comfort mode (except for overheating). Water ingress issue: No public announcement whatsoever. The only thing that I've seen is the email to the select buyers who bought it directly from Inmotion USA, which we've only saw since a member forwarded it. One comment from @Jeffrey Scott Will assuring that customers will be taken care of. Whether that applies to Inmotion USA customers or all customers however no-one knows. In short, they seem intent so far on maintaining radio silence even though their customers are upset. Why? Well, the cynic in me says it makes sense to keep quiet if you have nothing positive to come back with. If all customers would be taken care of with the water ingress issue why not say so? It would go a long way in assuring customers. Ditto for the overload issues. Had they any plan or intent on addressing this it would have made sense to say so already (as it seems to be a hardware issue I personally don't believe anything will happen with this at all unfortunately). I'm hoping that I'm wrong and they're just slow in responding or alternatively just bad at custom relations (well I don't necessarily hope they're bad at that..). Either way, there's already damage done. Edited August 12, 2018 by Nils 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stan Onymous Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2018 25 minutes ago, mezzanine said: It's sad to read about how many people are disappointed with the V10. I believe I was the only poster to communicate skepticism about this wheel when it was released...reminding me again how I wish we could trade stock in EUC companies. They were able to capitalize on a lot of goodwill from the V5 and V8. And here is the real kicker - Its an Amazing Ride, fantastic feel of a machine and clearly capable if they would only own up to the FACT of the situation. We are its test pilots. We few in the first release are part of their Research and Development. IM should welcome the chance to redesign the boards and send them out for replacement due to the diamond in the rough they have in this wheel. A move like that would be a PR win and a R&D win as well as keeping many devoted customers. If handled correctly it could in effect give customers a feeling of ownership and pride in a Company not seen since Ma and Pop stores. It would really go a long way to solidify their Brand identification loyalty. I love the V10F, I just wish InMotion will show it does too. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 32 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said: And here is the real kicker - Its an Amazing Ride, fantastic feel of a machine and clearly capable if they would only own up to the FACT of the situation. We are its test pilots. We few in the first release are part of their Research and Development. IM should welcome the chance to redesign the boards and send them out for replacement due to the diamond in the rough they have in this wheel. A move like that would be a PR win and a R&D win as well as keeping many devoted customers. If handled correctly it could in effect give customers a feeling of ownership and pride in a Company not seen since Ma and Pop stores. It would really go a long way to solidify their Brand identification loyalty. I love the V10F, I just wish InMotion will show it does too. FWIW, my theory is that the Inmotion that developed and released the V5 and V8 is not the same company that is currently in charge and released the V10, despite being able to use the same name. It would be like if Ninebot decided to get out of the EUC game and decided to sell their remaining inventory and branding rights to a much smaller and poorer company like Rockwheel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 i haven’t modified my software/firmware on my v10f since getting it on may 16th and i use the ios version on my ipad. i don’t have mountains and i don’t ride in the rain, not sure if damp roads after a rain is a no go, but honestly, i don’t have any issues with mine. rode the 18s yesterday and the 16s today and i think the wheel/tire combo on the v10f is the best for me. a blend between the 18 and the 16. this mght change once i get my z10. i like the high pedals, big pedals(skid tape would probably be better than silicone but it seems once the silicone loses it’s sheen, they’re ok), headlight, speakers, handle disconnect switch, the handle is comfortable for carrying, the factory cover, and even though i don’t need it and thought i’d remove it, i’m fine wth the trolley handle. people use online forums for dfferent reasons. i use this forum and every online forum i’ve ever been on, to hear from other consumers about their complaints, and sometimes look for advice on a problem i mght have. not really into videos or selfies, unless it pertains to something technical on a wheel i own. i’ve probably spent more time on this forum than i have on all the other consumer product forums all together because i definitely want a heads up if one of these wheels had a manufacturer’s defect that would make the wheel try to kill me. so in that vein, i appreciate all these torture tests you guys are doing because my logic tells me if the wheels can take what y’all are throwing at it, my light use should be no problem. should i be afraid to update my software/firmware and which is the best way, apple or android? on a side note, earlier in the year, i bought a brand new 2016 vw touareg diesel. because of the dieselgate emissions thing, this vehicle couldn’t be sold until it was re-certified 12-17. yesterday in the mail, i get a recall notice from vw telling me that there’s a recall on the emission system and i have to bring it in to the dealer for a 3.5 hour minimum service call. i only buy new vehicles thinking i won’t breakdown or have to waste my time with it in the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2018 I might be wrong, but most likely the InMotion folks are busy trying to figure out a solution to the issues people are having. It’s not always easy to push out fixes the next day or week even though consumers want them right away. They probably are having their engineers analyse the problems, but it’s just taking some time. It could also be that most people aren’t having problems so InMotion doesn’t see the few reports as serious. If they sold 1000 wheels, and only have ten reports of hill climbing issues with riders over 200 lbs, how big of an issue would that be? Would they be pressed to re-engineer boards and issue them to all 1000 customers? Without knowing the true scope of the problem, it difficult to gauge what their response will be. It would be nice and reassuring if @Bobwheel or @Jeffrey Scott Will could provide some updates and keep people in the loop to help affected customers know what’s happening. Radio silence when people have concerns isn’t the best at allaying people’s fears with their investment. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post novazeus Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: It would be nice and reassuring if @Bobwheel or @Jeffrey Scott Will could provide some updates and keep people in the loop to help affected customers know what’s happening. Radio silence when people have concerns isn’t the best at allaying people’s fears with their investment. amen brother. that is good advice for everybody in their personal and business life. my main gig in life was building million dollar homes for picky million dollar customers prone to litigation. i never had a problem because i nipped it in the bud like barney fife with great communication. seems to be a lost art. i have my application in for supreme ruler but my hopes aren’t high so i probably won’t be able to command everybody has to be a good communicator. it’s human nature to forgive and give 2nd chances and more, if there is some good bs excuse or truth that makes some kind of sense. it’s silence or bad bs excuses that are frustrating. Edited August 12, 2018 by novazeus 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayRay Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Stan Onymous said: only 4 Pintos caught fire in the entire gas tank fiasco Infamous! (Americans besmirched hatchbacks for 25 years after that incident...) Spoiler 3 hours ago, Stan Onymous said: The V10 becomes a time released ticking time bomb. <- V10 Edited August 12, 2018 by RayRay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 personally, i think keurig should have a little bell or bluetooth to my phone to remind me i started brewing a cup of coffee and it’s now ready. i can’t tell u how many cups of coffee i’ve wasted because i forgot about making a cup. i’m pretty sure i’m not the only one using medical cannabis. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Onymous Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, RayRay said: Infamous! (Americans besmirched hatchbacks for 25 years after that incident...) Reveal hidden contents <- V10 One of the Four was in a crash test, so that doesnt count. The ticking time bomb refers to first it was an Overload, then its a water issue, those are pretty darned easy to test for. What else didnt they test for? Did they miss some complicated things too? You mean there are no heavy engineers in china that could take it for a hill climb? I find that extremely hard to believe, and just think of how bullet proof this vehicle will be when it is fixed! Its Corporate malfeasance not to fix the problem given what this Wheel should be capable of. Edited August 12, 2018 by Stan Onymous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Farrenkopf Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) Being 255 pounds naked, I looked carefully at the specs before I bought it over the z10 because I couldn’t wait anymore back in May. I wanted the z10 ever since I saw the September news release of it last year. First it was the bad batch of bearings, then the overload issue/ heat issue and now the weather sealing problem. The selling specs were active cooling which was supposed to prevent heating problems, 260 pound weight load capacity and the weather rating were also selling points for me to proceed. I am still on the shipped firmware of end of May. I can say I don’t feel as safe riding it now than I did when I first got it. I’ve had a complaint that the headlight is too bright for cars so it would be nice if it could be aimed lower. I got my shoe wet and now I know what the complaint about the rubber is now. I sure hope some fixes will be done. Edited August 13, 2018 by Harold Farrenkopf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 21 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said: if it could be aimed lower that feature in the app of being able to tilt the pedals in real time is very cool. course you might have to get use to a forward tilt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Farrenkopf Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 28 minutes ago, novazeus said: that feature in the app of being able to tilt the pedals in real time is very cool. course you might have to get use to a forward tilt. I already have it tilted 3 degrees. That adjustment is for foot comfort and not the headlight tilt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novazeus Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 48 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said: I already have it tilted 3 degrees. That adjustment is for foot comfort and not the headlight tilt. yeah i know that but it should lower the beam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Demargon Posted August 13, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) Reading the comments about overloading and wather issues I need to answer them: they are someone's who don't have any those problems If that isn't enough I do several times this sand and salty water test at different speeds without problems Edited August 13, 2018 by Demargon 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Demargon said: Reading the comments about overloading and wather issues I need to answer them: they are someone's who don't have any those problems If that isn't enough I do several times this sand and salty water test at different speeds without problems Nice to hear that it doesn't seem to be a problem for you with the water! Regarding the overload issues I guess most people will probably not notice these (myself included so far), and if they do at least the wheel still functions as before. Problem with the water issue is that there's currently no way of knowing whether your wheel has an issue except for trying it out and potentially wreck your V10F, which I think most of us aren't too keen on. We don't know whether the exactly all wheels are affected (but the alert sent out by Inmotion suggests that all could be). In short, I guess it will work until it doesn't and at that point you'll have a broken wheel. Edited August 13, 2018 by Nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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