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EUC Motors Are Not Waterproof!


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6 hours ago, Cranium said:

I have a Ninebot One P motor that has a bad hall sensor....I've been meaning to open it to see if I can replace the sensor(s).  When I do, I'll post some pics for comparison.  :) 

Excellent DYI video! As for myself I’ve had my share of replacing hall sensors. It appears the wires on your NB1P sensors are more robust. My ACM sensor wires were so attenuated they would break just looking at them. :(

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On 20 January 2018 at 6:30 AM, Cranium said:
On 20 January 2018 at 12:55 AM, Smoother said:

 

Good quality armatures will look very clean with no wires crossing over each other

Thant was very informative, thanks.  I couldn't even see the components he was soldering.  Too bad about the lazy wound  coils, at least they won't throw you down the road when you least expect it.

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On 1/20/2018 at 1:30 AM, Cranium said:

Good quality armatures will look very clean with no wires crossing over each other.  

The highest efficiency motors will have windings neatly laid next to and on top of each other and will be tightly packed.  And to get the absolute most efficiency flat or square wire is used to virtually eliminate all air gaps.  

 

Question. How much would  the kind of quality of the KS windings affect efficiency?  I'm thinking of the recent data suggesting that the KS18S may be very inefficient and produce low mileage. If motor quality is inconsistent then this could account for why and people argue the range is great while others suggest it is poor. 

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1 hour ago, WARPed1701D said:

How much would  the kind of quality of the KS windings affect efficiency?  I'm thinking of the recent data suggesting that the KS18S may be very inefficient and produce low mileage. If motor quality is inconsistent then this could account for why and people argue the range is great while others suggest it is poor. 

For you as is the case for me, you will get all the mileage it claims. My test ride with Michael Vu from the forum proved this. The French riding club did a test on output and showed it was well within the advertised claims. 

Taller people create more wind resistance. Marty's stance from watching his videos and others of him, is a shallow bowl or sail for most of his riding. I bet if he were to assume more of a speed skating stance with his hands in front forming a wind foil of some sort, he could achieve results closer to advertised specs for his weight and height. I have found that using my hands as a wind break greatly decreases the strain on the motors.

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22 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

For you as is the case for me, you will get all the mileage it claims. My test ride with Michael Vu from the forum proved this. The French riding club did a test on output and showed it was well within the advertised claims. 

Taller people create more wind resistance. Marty's stance from watching his videos and others of him, is a shallow bowl or sail for most of his riding. I bet if he were to assume more of a speed skating stance with his hands in front forming a wind foil of some sort, he could achieve results closer to advertised specs for his weight and height. I have found that using my hands as a wind break greatly decreases the strain on the motors.

I love that description - I'm a bowl riding down the street :laughbounce2:

There may be something to what you say, but that wouldn't explain why I get great mileage on my other wheels. I think the primary effect is the weight difference in riders. You get great mileage on all of your wheels because you're a much lighter person :thumbup:

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

You get great mileage on all of your wheels because you're a much lighter person :thumbup:

First off, you are almost always carrying some selfie stick while filming your rides, so it is difficult to tell your natural riding posture. From being on rides with you and watching the Yoshi video, you carry your arms a little like you must have held them during high school dance mixers, apprehensively at the sides waiting for life to throw you off balance and the real fun to start. As for my weight...

That is only one minor part. For instance, when I drove my car across the country totally loaded, I got the best gas mileage I have ever gotten at 31 mpg which is 4 mpg better than listed. I doubt I could have gotten signifigantly better mpg if I was alone. In fact on the CES drive I got nearly the same MPG at 30.4  with a third of the weight. Even on the vehicle, I have thinner shoulder spread and less surface area contacting the wind. My arms with even a slight inward stance act as a wind foil more than a baffle and all of this adds up like interest on the battery banks

Why are all cars shaped like jelly beans? Because thats what wind tunnels have decided is the best cost effective way of reaching a .30 or better drag coefficient. Thats where the mileage really gets realized. Wind and road drag are the main friction factors effecting your mileage. You inflate your tires for less friction and road drag. Weight can act as momentum in long distance driving and actually help your mileage. Thats why train travel for goods and services is so economical per cargo weight and miles traveled. They are heavy and now are slip stream lined for better aerodynamics.

A gooses bill may be just as well designed for aerodynamics as for piching upper thighs. :whistling:

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1 hour ago, Stan Onymous said:

First off, you are almost always carrying some selfie stick while filming your rides, so it is difficult to tell your natural riding posture. From being on rides with you and watching the Yoshi video, you carry your arms a little like you must have held them during high school dance mixers, apprehensively at the sides waiting for life to throw you off balance and the real fun to start. As for my weight...

That is only one minor part. For instance, when I drove my car across the country totally loaded, I got the best gas mileage I have ever gotten at 31 mpg which is 4 mpg better than listed. I doubt I could have gotten signifigantly better mpg if I was alone. In fact on the CES drive I got nearly the same MPG at 30.4  with a third of the weight. Even on the vehicle, I have thinner shoulder spread and less surface area contacting the wind. My arms with even a slight inward stance act as a wind foil more than a baffle and all of this adds up like interest on the battery banks

Why are all cars shaped like jelly beans? Because thats what wind tunnels have decided is the best cost effective way of reaching a .30 or better drag coefficient. Thats where the mileage really gets realized. Wind and road drag are the main friction factors effecting your mileage. You inflate your tires for less friction and road drag. Weight can act as momentum in long distance driving and actually help your mileage. Thats why train travel for goods and services is so economical per cargo weight and miles traveled. They are heavy and now are slip stream lined for better aerodynamics.

A gooses bill may be just as well designed for aerodynamics as for piching upper thighs. :whistling:

:)

I'm certainly not disagreeing with aerodynamics. But when it comes to the disputed KS18S range that I achieved (vs yours for instance), I still come back to the fact that I get great mileage on my other wheels. So my KS18S experience can't all be chalked up to my poor aerodynamics, otherwise I'd get lousy mileage on my other wheels too.

BTW, I do acknowledge that I have a rather wide riding stance, with my arms out a bit (I like your dance imagery example). I feel like I'm in a more athletic position because I am always anticipating something going wrong, so I'm ever ready for a tumble.

Weight is still a big (not minor) contributor to range performance. Here we disagree. Every high-performance endeavor that I can think of (aircraft, cars, bicycles, etc.), weight reduction is a huge factor in winning competitions. 

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3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I love that description - I'm a bowl riding down the street :laughbounce2:

I’ve got funny image in my head and almost put together a picture but my Patriots are loosing so they need me right now.  :crying:

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33 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

:)

I'm certainly not disagreeing with aerodynamics. But when it comes to the disputed KS18S range that I achieved (vs yours for instance), I still come back to the fact that I get great mileage on my other wheels. So my KS18S experience can't all be chalked up to my poor aerodynamics, otherwise I'd get lousy mileage on my other wheels too.

BTW, I do acknowledge that I have a rather wide riding stance, with my arms out a bit (I like your dance imagery example). I feel like I'm in a more athletic position because I am always anticipating something going wrong, so I'm ever ready for a tumble.

Weight is still a big (not minor) contributor to range performance. Here we disagree. Every high-performance endeavor that I can think of (aircraft, cars, bicycles, etc.), weight reduction is a huge factor in winning competitions. 

 

6 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

?  I'm thinking of the recent data suggesting that the KS18S may be very inefficient and produce low milea

16 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The 18S just seems to lose efficiency fast at higher weights, vs. other wheels like the 84V Gotways.

I will still speak up against this -one! and only- range test Marty has done while his 100 and a few miles lending of the 18S! This is anything but not representative and if anything the results are more than doubtful!

I highly respect all of Marty comments videos, reviews, range tests, and what not all he is doing for the community and agree to nearly all of them. But here he is telling the 18S is using about double the energy the ACM on the exact same route. Sorry, thats nonsens, something was/is wrong on this specific test! I can only repeat it again and again: The 18S is -like ALL of our wheels- using about 12-18wh for 1 km.  i have this prooved and documented by a Watthour counting Charge doctor measurement over its complete wheel life of now over 1600km, all of the French 18S owners report the same and what else other examples there are.

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9 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

 

I will still speak up against this -one! and only- range test Marty has done while his 100 and a few miles lending of the 18S! This is anything but not representative and if anything the results are more than doubtful!

I highly respect all of Marty comments videos, reviews, range tests, and what not all he is doing for the community and agree to nearly all of them. But here he is telling the 18S is using about double the energy the ACM on the exact same route. Sorry, thats nonsens, something was/is wrong on this specific test! I can only repeat it again and again: The 18S is -like ALL of our wheels- using about 12-18wh for 1 km.  i have this prooved and documented by a Watthour counting Charge doctor measurement over its complete wheel life of now over 1600km, all of the French 18S owners report the same and what else other examples there are.

Yet there are other people who also report less than stellar mileage on their KS18S. However, I do agree with you that my experience on the KS18S is more of an outlier. I still stand by my conclusion that the KS18S is a great wheel, yet it's a bit of an acquired taste, so to speak.

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3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The 18S just seems to lose efficiency fast at higher weights, vs. other wheels like the 84V Gotways.

Well, Michael Vu's Gotway 1600 was at 20% after 49 miles and my KS18s was at 44%. We had a 50lb difference in weight 210lbs to 160lbs loaded, and went the same mileage and speeds. I led the way racing back to Redondo from santa monica for all but the last couple of miles when the Gotway started beeping too much for comfort with my pace. Then he set the pace at around 20 mph or less. 

While the weight was a factor, it was a factor in braking and accelerating around traffic on the beach on the way up to Santa Monica we were also fighting a wind which partially served us as a tail wind on the way back. The mileage is , if the difference is due to weight or wind drag, the exact same on an Msuper 1600 as it is on a KS18s. Michael is a little taller than me and wider, but he has a compact riding stance with his hands in front of him. Marty does have a different stance on the KS18 than on his Tesla. Its much more upright. Maybe if he wore his fanny pack in the rear it would act more like a spoiler and give him some lift :D.

Marty is a way better rider than me, and this is in NO WAY intended to imply anything different. I just noticed that putting my hands infront of me in an ultraman gesture gives me a couple of KM/H higher speed. I will try to capture this on my camera app, but you could always try it yourself. 

". I still stand by my conclusion that the KS18S is a great wheel, yet it's a bit of an acquired taste, so to speak."

very true! It is a good thing that it is not unlocked to 50km/h till after 1000 kms. It behaves very differently in an almost disobedient way. I feel a certain kinship with this beast. Albeit at arms length.

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7 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

 

I will still speak up against this -one! and only- range test Marty has done while his 100 and a few miles lending of the 18S! This is anything but not representative and if anything the results are more than doubtful!

I highly respect all of Marty comments videos, reviews, range tests, and what not all he is doing for the community and agree to nearly all of them. But here he is telling the 18S is using about double the energy the ACM on the exact same route. Sorry, thats nonsens, something was/is wrong on this specific test! I can only repeat it again and again: The 18S is -like ALL of our wheels- using about 12-18wh for 1 km.  i have this prooved and documented by a Watthour counting Charge doctor measurement over its complete wheel life of now over 1600km, all of the French 18S owners report the same and what else other examples there are.

This is why I asked the original question about how much the quality of the windings could affect efficiency. Does the odd wheel go out what is poorly constructed within the motor and result in reduced efficiency and range. I've never seen inside an EUC motor. It's a Gotway motor neater? What about Inmotion? Are they all like a birds nest inside? Are other brands more consistent with their winding quality? Is this a KingSong build quality weakness that could produce seemingly similar wheels that get different ranges. If so does the quality vary greatly all the time or just the odd one goes out. Marty's numbers are likely correct for that wheel and yours are likely correct for yours, but why are his so low? We concentrate on battery health and configuration but this is a new avenue of investigation I never considered. Maybe it isn't a valid one. Which is why I ask how much an effect this would have. 

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16 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

For instance, when I drove my car across the country totally loaded, I got the best gas mileage I have ever gotten at 31 mpg which is 4 mpg better than listed. I doubt I could have gotten signifigantly better mpg if I was alone.

It is interesting to note that when riding my bike it takes IMO much less effort to ride when I'm pulling 50lb of shopping in my trailer than when I'm riding without it. The effect of increased momentum cannot be underestimated in situations where regular acceleration and deceleration can be avoided. 

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32 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

Question. How much would  the kind of quality of the KS windings affect efficiency?  I'm thinking of the recent data suggesting that the KS18S may be very inefficient and produce low mileage. If motor quality is inconsistent then this could account for why and people argue the range is great while others suggest it is poor. 

That I cannot say for sure because it requires more in depth knowledge than what I have to determine 'how much'.  :)  I can only surmise from what I've been researching which again might be overlooking something important that an actual engineer would know and if that's the case, I hope I'm corrected.

What I've been able to read and trying to understand on the matter is that for a given number of turns and for a given diameter wire sloppy windings will:

  • Require more wire which will slightly affect the resistance of each coil on the armature
  • Have more air gaps between the wires and when looking at a cross-sectional view it would have a larger cross section.

coefficient of self inductance

L = Inductance
µ = Permeability
N = # of turns in the coil
A = Area of core (radius^2 * π)
ℓ = Length (or width) of coil

Permeability of air (and copper) is roughly 1.  Permeability of carbon steel is roughly 100.  Permeability of pure iron (99.8% pure) is 5000.  For the highest efficiency coil, you want the wires to be as close to the stator core as possible which keeps the cross section of the coil at a minimum.  This is a factor on why we see coils using multiple smaller strands in parallel instead of just one larger strand to carry the current.   But I don't have enough knowledge and couldn't find anything on how to to quantify the difference besides the general theory.

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On 20.1.2018 at 7:30 AM, Cranium said:

Good quality armatures will look very clean with no wires crossing over each other.  

54b36168db986.jpg

The highest efficiency motors will have windings neatly laid next to and on top of each other and will be tightly packed.  And to get the absolute most efficiency flat or square wire is used to virtually eliminate all air gaps.  Total turns per phase is directly proportional to torque.  So putting all the needed turns (N per phase) in a single coil with smaller magnet wires and then paralleling the coils will yield extra space for more turns.  KS looks to be using 6 wires in parallel...just not wound as efficiently as it could be.

The windings on this stator look much cleaner and he has what looks like 12 wires in parallel for each coil (plus look at his mad skills soldering SMD caps and a resistor directly on the legs of the hall sensors):

I have a Ninebot One P motor that has a bad hall sensor....I've been meaning to open it to see if I can replace the sensor(s).  When I do, I'll post some pics for comparison.  :) 

I really like this BLDC - especially the wires leading outside for the three phases! They have the same diameter as the ~12 parallel strains wound around the coils. Not one "extremely long and thin" cable like with our EUCs! This cables should take a main part of the "motor's" ohmic copper losses!

Putting the "high power stage" of the electronics near to the coil wirings (inside the motor for example, or ) could be a nice "evolution". Or taking a nice axle to lead such real cables through...

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