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Issue with rockwheel gt16 (v2)


Pierre G
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1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

Nobody "likes" tilt-back. But the bloody thing is there for a reason.

Have you ever had a cut-out? I've had one at close to zero speed, and even so I barely managed to get my arms up to avoid falling on my nose. It was way more scary than any other falls I've had.

Consider this:

At 42kph you're going forward at approx 7 m/s. If you have a cut-out your body continues forward at that speed.

But since you're leaning forward, since your feet are planted on the pedals and your legs are probably more or less squeezing the EUC, the wheel acts like an anchor and a hinge adding some of those 7 m/s to the 9.81 m/s^2 to your natural falling speed. The time between the cut-out and you hitting the ground is so short, that even a martial arts expert would have trouble reacting fast enough to have a chance of recovery. Even reacting fast enough to roll out of the fall is all but certain unless you've trained falling technique to the point that it is instictive.

The most likely scenario is falling on your nose, with maybe your elbows, knees, and wrists taking some of the impact. Or if you're lucky the forward momentum and your muscle memory transfers some of that momentum into a roll and you take only part of it in direct impact.

Most EUCs tend to cut out when over the limit. If you're lucky you get a couple of fractions of a second where you feel the wobble before the fact, but in many cases you'll just find yourself halfway to the ground before you even realised something was wrong.

This is the reason for all the bloody alarms, and the reason for the 80% warning and tilt-back. Believe me, you never, ever, ever, ever, ever want to go there. A fellow EUC-rider here in Gothenburg have quit after promising his kids he wouldn't drive anymore. He has four titanium plates where some of his facial bones used to be. That was a cut out, one that happened because he had turned of all the tilt-back options on his GW.

BAM, and then months in sick-bed looking like a train ran over his face.

SO...

The bloody tilt-back is there for a bloody reason. Hate it all you like, but learn to handle it. In all likelihood it will one day be the thing that makes you stay pretty.

Sorry for the rant.

i see what youre on to but "tiltback" is not a miracle cure it uses power too in low power situation it could even cause a cut out (probably not that likely but it can happen)

i just stay well below the last beep alarm and i know i will be fine

alarms or tiltback they have the same function

but tiltback just forces your body back wich can cause falls (i had my mini pro for a long time and i never got the feel of the tiltback)

and i have a cross helmet on ALWAYS and wirstguards, knee pads, elbow guards i also use every time even for a very short ride

but i just prefer not tiltback. and when something goes wrong tiltback wont save you

 

 

 

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There will be a moment of distraction when youll push over the limit. tiltback is just giving you a chance to recover and be safe. Never turn it off.
I used to ride rockwheel GR 16, which has no tiltback and had a faceplant so i know what im talking about.

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3 hours ago, Scatcat said:

...

Most EUCs tend to cut out when over the limit. 

...

_All_ EUCs cannot accelerate further once they reach the limit - that's why it's called limit :D

1 hour ago, Shad0z said:

i see what youre on to but "tiltback" is not a miracle cure it uses power too in low power situation it could even cause a cut out (probably not that likely but it can happen)

"Cut-outs" (more exact overleans, because the max torque over speed limit was reached) (normaly) never happen in low power situations. (If you meant "low power" in regard to battery capacity still the following points written are true - the little bit the tiltback takes does not change the situation)

This overleans happen in because of acceleration or other "burdens" (incline, wind, potholes,...). The tiltback uses only minimal power compared to the grand total - just to accelerate a tiny bit to change the angle of the pedals.

If this little bit is "the last trigger" of the overlean one would reach the overlean without the tiltback anyhow in some small fractions of a second. (The cases were one would have stopped accelerating just before the overlean limit and the tiltback kicks in pushing one this last bit over the limit don't count - that's like getting struck by lightning on a sunny day after winning in the lottery)

And tiltback only kicks in "deadly" if one accelerates into the tilt-back threshold fast enough. In this case it is very very likely that one would reach the overlean limit just shortly after. So one has a chance to "survive" this tiltback of death without accident, but almost no chance to get over this overlean without faceplant.

One can even reach by accelerating the overlean limit without reaching the tiltback threshold ( http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?do=findComment&comment=107721 )

... and yes, once again, that with acceleration tiltback kicks in so harshly is an absolutely not necessary, stupid and dangerous firmware implementation ... I'm wondering when the first firmware programmer will implement such a f**** simple linear extrapolation just out of boredom and all drivers will be happy and praise him...

 

1 hour ago, Shad0z said:

i just stay well below the last beep alarm and i know i will be fine

alarms or tiltback they have the same function

As long as one hears the alarm everything is fine and if one sets the alarm just below the tiltback one will never encounter the tiltback...

... Just in case the surrounding was to loud the tiltback is the last warning...

1 hour ago, Shad0z said:

but tiltback just forces your body back wich can cause falls (i had my mini pro for a long time and i never got the feel of the tiltback)

As written above - if the tiltback comes so fast one could fall the chances are very high that one would overlean and faceplant anyhow...

1 hour ago, Shad0z said:

...

but i just prefer not tiltback. and when something goes wrong tiltback wont save you

Yes. Here are enough people driving without tiltback and having fun. And there where many nasty faceplants with tiltback enabled...  As (badly as) the tiltbacks are implemented by now there is nothing to say against such a personal preference.

Just that tiltbacks cause accidents is (almost) wrong. If one is kicked of the wheel by the tiltback the tiltback _is_ the cause, also one would have faceplanted half a second later without tiltback...

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3 hours ago, Chriull said:

"Cut-outs" (more exact overleans, because the max torque over speed limit was reached) (normaly) never happen in low power situations.

Oh man you're so wrong about it. Even modern devices as V8 aka Glide 3 has that kind of BMS which cuts out on low voltage, which can happen on acceleration, which will occasionally  turn into faceplant

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36 minutes ago, WaveCut said:

Oh man you're so wrong about it

??

36 minutes ago, WaveCut said:

. Even modern devices as V8 aka Glide 3 has that kind of BMS which cuts out on low voltage, which can happen on acceleration, which will occasionally  turn into faceplant

That's why i included the "(more exact overleans, because the max torque over speed limit was reached)" to clarify what i speak about. 

 This real cutouts you are talking about are bad design faults that never ever should happen(and the reason a don't really like 2p configurations for powerfull wheels). Nothing i'd expect from a gt16 with something like a 4p configuration (as long as the cells are ok and somehow balanced).

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16 hours ago, Chriull said:

_All_ EUCs cannot accelerate further once they reach the limit - that's why it's called limit :D

I may not have been clear enough. When you reach the limit one of two things can happen:

  1. There is not enough torque to keep you upright, but the EUC still tries to keep you upright.
  2. The EUC is overstressed - either the BMS or the controller shuts down the current.

In case one you may actually have time to brace yourself for the fall and roll. In case two not so much - say hello to the face-plant.

This idea of alarms is all well and good, as long as you f-ing hear them. If you ride in the woods where the tinnitus whine of the EUC is the loudest noise apart from flying gravel, that is not much of a problem. But even a pretty loud alarm is not certain to go through the noises of massive traffic which resonates on asphalt, concrete, stone and glass. This is especially true if there are sand/gravel on the road, some rain, a full face helmet the sound has to go through etcetera.

The ideal tilt-back is one that is JUST distinct enough to get your attention, but that feels more like the wheel is catching you than the wheel becoming a bucking horse.

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42 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

I may not have been clear enough. When you reach the limit one of two things can happen:

  1. There is not enough torque to keep you upright, but the EUC still tries to keep you upright.
  2. The EUC is overstressed - either the BMS or the controller shuts down the current.

In case one you may actually have time to brace yourself for the fall and roll. In case two not so much - say hello to the face-plant.

This idea of alarms is all well and good, as long as you f-ing hear them. If you ride in the woods where the tinnitus whine of the EUC is the loudest noise apart from flying gravel, that is not much of a problem. But even a pretty loud alarm is not certain to go through the noises of massive traffic which resonates on asphalt, concrete, stone and glass. This is especially true if there are sand/gravel on the road, some rain, a full face helmet the sound has to go through etcetera.

The ideal tilt-back is one that is JUST distinct enough to get your attention, but that feels more like the wheel is catching you than the wheel becoming a bucking horse.

my tesla doesnt make as loud noticable "whine sound" like the most other eucs

and i have had 0 issues with hearing the alarm even with a cross helmet and trafic

but problem with limits is theyre are hardware limits and software limits my mini pro could probably had gone double the speed it was 800w but only 17 kph cruise speed...

and then hardware limits wich.. when you go past.. faceplant :/

 ideally there should be a software limit to alert you. not force you a sbtle tiltback or a beep alarm or both

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17 minutes ago, Shad0z said:

my tesla doesnt make as loud noticable "whine sound" like the most other eucs

and i have had 0 issues with hearing the alarm even with a cross helmet and trafic

but problem with limits is theyre are hardware limits and software limits my mini pro could probably had gone double the speed it was 800w but only 17 kph cruise speed...

and then hardware limits wich.. when you go past.. faceplant :/

 ideally there should be a software limit to alert you. not force you a sbtle tiltback or a beep alarm or both

Well, my experience with the GT16V2 tilt-back is that it feels like a swing. You're leaning forward accelerating, then you're upright slightly decelerating - no bucking, no instability, you just change what you're doing.

The algorithm of the tilt-back could probably go through a few more iterations making it even smoother, but already it's fully possible to ride the tilt-back and continue accelerating (if you're feeling edgy enough to risk a face plant...)

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On 1/29/2018 at 1:44 PM, Scatcat said:

Nobody "likes" tilt-back.

Count me in for nobody. I love to have a tactile speed-limiter / life-saver.

On 1/29/2018 at 3:47 PM, Shad0z said:

i see what youre on to but "tiltback" is not a miracle cure it uses power too

That depends on how the rider reacts to it. It doesn't need more power than is needed to slow down in the given situation anyways.

Edited by Mono
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8 hours ago, Mono said:

Count me in for nobody. 

That depends on how the rider reacts to it. It doesn't need more power than is needed to slow down in the given situation anyways.

Exactly, tilt-back should happen when there's at least some headroom left for extra power, NOT when you're already at the limit.

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  • 4 weeks later...

i know im late

 

hah! i found a little trick up my sleeve with tiltback

so my tesla has last alarm at about 47kph (80% of max output) that means i have 9.4 kph to spare before cutoff

but what if it dont hear the beeps? i looked at the tlitback options and i had an option of 48kph.. hmm

that means i can ride until i hear the beeps but if i dont slow down a little or speed up then i feel the slight tilt.. and if i speed up way too much then i get tilted back fully

so i get beeps at 47kph and very slight tiltback when going faster than that.. perfect!  :D 

instead of hitting lets ssay 45kph and then tiltingback instantly...

 

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You need to undestand that uunicycle can't manage needed amount of moment on max speed so it might result in chain => tiltback triggered => tiltback angle set => no moment no speed to run in front of driver => flat pedals are treated as push => acceleration attempt => cutout

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25 minutes ago, WaveCut said:

You need to undestand that uunicycle can't manage needed amount of moment on max speed so it might result in chain => tiltback triggered => tiltback angle set => no moment no speed to run in front of driver => flat pedals are treated as push => acceleration attempt => cutout

at 80 percent power when it beeps it had 10 kph to spare before cut out. tiltback is set to 49kph and at 47kph it is slightly noticeable and it is a gradient up to 49 where it kicks in.. but there i still have about 8 kph to spare before it cuts out. and as soon as i hear beeps or feel slight tiltback i slow down a little

and tiltback is hard to hit anyway so i will only feel start of it never full  tiltback

Edited by Shad0z
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Just now, WaveCut said:

power depends on charge level, so it will go lower along with battery, please be careful

beeping still alerts me when its on 80% of max output (decreases with battery level) but tiltback does not. so the tiltback only works on high speed with much battery 

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> beeping still alerts me when its on 80% of max output

That "80%" is an estimation.  Depending a huge variety of variables (most obvious your weight and the age & quality of the EUC)

> last alarm at about 47kph (80% of max output) that means i have 9.4 kph to spare before cutoff

Wrong.  At speed most power is overcoming air drag.  Air drag is proportional to the square of your speed - not linear.
So if 47kph takes 80% of your power, then the 100% speed would be approximately sqrt(100/80)*47kph = 52.5kph, giving you a theoretical 5.5 kph (not 9.4) to spare before your EUC will be unable to balance.  You may even cutout which is worse than reaching 100% output; with a cutout power instantaneously drops from 100% to 0%.

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6 minutes ago, duaner said:

> beeping still alerts me when its on 80% of max output

That "80%" is an estimation.  Depending a huge variety of variables (most obvious your weight and the age & quality of the EUC)

> last alarm at about 47kph (80% of max output) that means i have 9.4 kph to spare before cutoff

Wrong.  At speed most power is overcoming air drag.  Air drag is proportional to the square of your speed - not linear.
So if 47kph takes 80% of your power, then the 100% speed would be approximately sqrt(100/80)*47kph = 52.5kph, giving you a theoretical 5.5 kph (not 9.4) to spare before your EUC will be unable to balance.  You may even cutout which is worse than reaching 100% output; with a cutout power instantaneously drops from 100% to 0%.

i stay well  under the limit for the most time. but its nice to sometimes have a little speed but im used to knowing what speed im traveling by now so i dont really hit the alarm

and i have the gw tesla so the quality should be descent 

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/22/2018 at 9:35 PM, Shad0z said:

i stay well  under the limit for the most time. but its nice to sometimes have a little speed but im used to knowing what speed im traveling by now so i dont really hit the alarm

and i have the gw tesla so the quality should be descent 

As long as you don't rationalise your reasoning from what you want, rather than from reality... That is so easy to do, and I've been guilty of that sort of mind-game a time or two :D

The tesla is capable of going at 50kph+, but only under certain conditions:

  • A rider that is relatively light.
  • A battery that is almost fully charged.
  • A road that is of good quality and has zero incline.
  • No headwind.
  • No obstacles.

Change any of those parameters, and the 50kph+ is no more than the speed at which your body is flung forward and into the ground. Personally I would stay the f*** out of speeds above 45kph, unless I had perfectly controlled conditions, full charge and very good protective gear.

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6 hours ago, Scatcat said:

As long as you don't rationalise your reasoning from what you want, rather than from reality... That is so easy to do, and I've been guilty of that sort of mind-game a time or two :D

The tesla is capable of going at 50kph+, but only under certain conditions:

  • A rider that is relatively light.
  • A battery that is almost fully charged.
  • A road that is of good quality and has zero incline.
  • No headwind.
  • No obstacles.

Change any of those parameters, and the 50kph+ is no more than the speed at which your body is flung forward and into the ground. Personally I would stay the f*** out of speeds above 45kph, unless I had perfectly controlled conditions, full charge and very good protective gear.

somebody on this forum i think it was @Charles McLean  tried going to speed with no alarm on the tesla he reached 56 kph with his telsa and it cut out and he is 90 kg

my max speed so far is about 50 kph. im not wliing to go any higher. and i usually ride at lower speeds. but if i have full battery then i can hit 47 kph at peak a few times on flat ground while speeding.

but i generally dont speed that much but i drive around 30-40 kph at what i consider "normal speed" 

and i rationalise from logic... 90kg rider 56 kph max cutout

it will be slight higher for me. im 85kg

 

but i dont ride over about 47 kph because that is when the 80% alarm starts

Edited by Shad0z
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14 hours ago, Shad0z said:

somebody on this forum i think it was @Charles McLean  tried going to speed with no alarm on the tesla he reached 56 kph with his telsa and it cut out and he is 90 kg

my max speed so far is about 50 kph. im not wliing to go any higher. and i usually ride at lower speeds. but if i have full battery then i can hit 47 kph at peak a few times on flat ground while speeding.

but i generally dont speed that much but i drive around 30-40 kph at what i consider "normal speed" 

and i rationalise from logic... 90kg rider 56 kph max cutout

it will be slight higher for me. im 85kg

 

but i dont ride over about 47 kph because that is when the 80% alarm starts

Please don't hit a pot-hole when going 50kph.

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