Ultracapacitors vs li-ion battery

[lucian75]

Hi..what you know about ultracapacitors to replace li-ion battery? Is someone who know more about them?

From what i read i find some advantages vs li-ion battery.

 

1. Li-ion battery is about chemical operation and ultracapacitors is about phisic operation..Wich mean...longer life time...And not so weak on low temperature...for exemple now my airwheel autonomy has down about 40-50% wich is insane. 

2. Ultracapacitors are not so dangerous like li-ion battery...wich mean we can transport more easy with aircraft? 

3. I don't care if he can't keep the power longer time..if i recharge in 30 min and he keep my trip is good enough i think.

4. 2.7V 3000F cell is good enough to make packs for our wheels or not?

Please don't tell me that is to expensive  now..that they have low Wh/kg than li-ion..they are buses with ultracapacitors who recharge tens of KW in few minutes etc.

PS. I just read some new info for me...not good news.

1 pcs have 500 gr..So it will be very heavy pack 

I know that now is good for automotive with good money to invest...maybe in fluture the things willy change. 

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, lucian75 said:

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2. Ultracapacitors are not so dangerous like li-ion battery...wich mean we can transport more easy with aircraft? 

Theoretically. But by now on many airplanes not even EUC's without batteries are allowed

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3. I don't care if he can't keep the power longer time..if i recharge in 30 min and he keep my trip is good enough i think.

4. 2.7V 3000F cell is good enough to make packs for our wheels or not?

That'll store an energy of 2.7*3000Ws = 2,2Wh. So one would need at least 50 of these to get an 110Wh pack.

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Please don't tell me that is to expensive  now..that they have low Wh/kg than li-ion..they are buses with ultracapacitors who recharge tens of KW in few minutes etc.

PS. I just read some new info for me...not good news.

1 pcs have 500 gr..So it will be very heavy pack 

... So 25kg for an 110Wh pack...

Presumably this will get also big and expensive 

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I know that now is good for automotive with good money to invest...maybe in fluture the things willy change. 

For sure.

Just one more thing - (super)capacitor voltage is proportinal to the charge, so one needs a dc/dc step up converter so one can use the whole charge.

[dmethvin]

As a practical matter, airlines aren't going to become experts at personal mobility devices to determine their electrical storage mechanism. 

Quick charging would definitely be a plus, maybe that would make up for the (currently) lower energy density of supercaps. I'm not sure how the internal resistance of supercaps or the characteristics of the DC step-up might affect the control circuits.

[lucian75]

Electricity knowledge is far for me..but i try to read everything i need...and i'm not affraid to asa many many questions to people who know more.

I was a bit to enthusiast i think..is to early to do something good for small unicycle...but maybe in near future things will change. Always i'm looking for other ways to do something. 

[DaveThomasPilot]

No where near enough energy capacity for an EUC.

[Keith]

10 hours ago, lucian75 said:

Hi..what you know about ultracapacitors to replace li-ion battery? Is someone who know more about them?

It seems unlikely ultracapacitors will become a good substitute for batteries in the foreseeable future, extremely low energy, but high power density makes them ideal for very short term high power use, like regenerative breaking. Possibly a hybrid of these and batteries together, might result in some efficiency improvements?

As I have said before, I more viable possibility is fuel cells, probably Methanol fuel cells, a biofuel that should make range anxiety a thing of the past and could be carried on planes empty. However, so much has been promised for these for many years and so little has actually been delivered, of course they would have to be quite rugged for our use as well - also possibly a significant problem.

[lucian75]

Fuel cell with methanol is already out ..not so small for EUC but not so big also..look at efoy comfort..0.91 KW per day..80 Ah..on 12V and only 7 kg ..and is the smalest one..but the price is big..from 2500 euro. 

But is hope i think .

I like new things..but for the moment the best option is to have spare battery and posibility to change it fast and easy..many EUC you can't do that...but my fatboy have 522 Wh and i can do it.

 

 

 

[Gimlet]

I have recently fitted an off peak + solar + whole house UPS energy storage system to my home.

It uses 10 Aquion salt water battery stacks which are actually capacitors rather than batteries as they use plate storage rather than chemical change.

They are huge and weigh well over a ton, but that doesn't really matter in a house, I fear that at it's present state of development the capacitor is not suitable for any form of transport, of course with development that may quickly change.

[lucian75]

They are already used for bus...they are charged in 3-5 min in some stop bus...6-9 mile autonomy..about 35 km/h..

I'm interested also for home application..can you give more details please? How much power...how much it cost etc.

[Gimlet]

I got a really good deal on 8 batteries to start with plus the Victron Multiplus inverter/charger plus the grid isolator and fitting for a little under £7,000 including VAT.

I added the extra 2 batteries 4 months later for an additional £1,450 fitted.

Each battery is rated at 2.2kWh but that is at an unrealistically slow charge rate. With my 3x E10 off peak periods of charging plus the tiny bit of solar this time of year I'm actually getting about 1.7 to 1.8kWh per stack or 17 to 18 kWh overall.

At present with my electric ground source heating and 3 electric vehicles charging on the overnight cheap rate I'm only using 4% peak rate and 96% off peak.

[LanghamP]

Running around with a quick charger works well. I've done that maybe twice, since a cup of coffee costs like two bucks, and a the electricity costs them maybe a buck.

Not that I'm too concerned with costs if I have five wheels! But you get the point.

@Gimlet's setup is amazing for a future whereby we have all these little power plants on top of our houses charging our houses and vehicles.

Can vehicle batteries power your house? I mean, fill the vehicle up then use the vehicle to power your house. That way you wouldn't have to buy more battery capacity. The only thing I've heard that's like that is some guy used his Tesla to mine Bitcoin; he powered a computer in his trunk with his car.

[WARPed1701D]

25 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Running around with a quick charger works well. I've done that maybe twice, since a cup of coffee costs like two bucks, and a the electricity costs them maybe a buck.

For my 24Wh/mile I can do 10 miles on 2.5c of electric.

[dmethvin]

Yeah the average cost of electricity in the US is only 12 cents per KW/h. Even with conversion inefficiencies in the charger the cost to fill the largest EUC battery from completely empty is more like 20 cents. It really points out inefficiency of the typical SUV that might get 20mpg; with gas at $2.50 a gallon it costs you $1.25 to go 10 miles.

[LanghamP]

I had no idea electricity for our EUCs is so cheap. I thought it'd be a couple of bucks at least, possibly much more.

Interestingly enough, I've only filled up my subcompact car three times since August compared to the usual twice a week schedule, so 5/month*2/week*$40-($3*40)=$280.

If one were a cheap bastard, one could buy a Segway S1 and it would break even without much effort in about six months, assuming one's commute is half the distance of mine.

[Gimlet]

Here in the UK with a little shopping around I can get off peak power @ 7.19P per kWh and peak tariff is 15.97P so even losing 10% in charging/ discharging the off peak works out about half price.

We have no Gas and are fairly Heavy electriciy users but even so at today's prices it'l take me the full 10 year warranty period to break even on the house battery. But when do prices ever stay still?

UK petrol prices are about £1.20P per litre = £4.54P a US gallon, my Tesla gets a little over 2 miles per kWh, so roughly 3P per mile. My BMW i3 does much better at close to 4 miles per kWh. I drive both vehicles in a fairly spirited manor and make the most of the 7 second 0->60mph acceleration of the i3 and the 4 second time of my Tesla, it's not the super fast Peformance model.

[lucian75]

Folks..for me electricity is free when is about EUC...i mean after i saw that my electric stove eat about 3 KW..132 Wh or 522 Wh is little baby.

And all the time when i go on city..first power socket i see is mine...usually Mc Donalds,Burger King etc...but i don't mind police station also

All power sockets are mine..fatboy ..notebook phone.. everything need some juice power :)))

 

 

 

[dmethvin]

Back when I had a smaller battery I would carry a multi-tap because when I went to charge there were already people using the outlet. That way more people can share!

 

[esaj]

Yup, electricity is relatively cheap (around 10 euro-cents per kWh), and "filling" a wheel doesn't take up much (maybe around 1kWh for the 840Wh KS batteries with the losses of the charger, and that can transport me a good 50+km). At least compared to usual consumption in a mostly electrically heated house and Finnish winter:

Those are our daily usages in kWh (kilowatthours) with the outside temperature laid on top, and last winter wasn't even that cold (and summer wasn't that warm). On a cold winter, it usually tops above 100kWh at least for a few days, and close to it for about a month. Solar power? Sure, but the last offer I got, the system installed wouldn't have paid itself off over its lifetime after calculating the production with a bit more realistic values than the optimistic ones given by the company.  There's about 3-4 months in the year that the power usage is at its highest, and at the same, it's so dark all the time that the solar power system doesn't provide much anything.

Had to check, the winter of 2016 was much colder (or should we say "more usual"):

[lucian75]

As im truck driver and i like to take stuff with me...ia good to be always ready for every situation..And i have many Kwh free with me all the time

This just give me a revelation..why to don't care power inverter with us in some situation?cars,trucks are everywhere where power sockets is missinng.

But to be honest the best choice is spare battery charged overnight and change it when is need.

 

 

[US69]

@lucian75

May i ask you how fast this Fatboy runs?

[lucian75]

Like many other EUC..don't be fooled by the handlebar..sometimes i ride better hands free.

But he was improved to have electric brake wich is amazing thing .

522 Wh..50 km on old model..i don't know yet if is the same with fatboy as in cold weather li-ion loose power. About 25 km/h ..bluetooth android app.

[US69]

1 minute ago, lucian75 said:

Like many other EUC..don't be fooled by the handlebar..sometimes i ride better hands free.

But he was improved to have electric brake wich is amazing thing .

522 Wh..50 km on old model..i don't know yet if is the same with fatboy as in cold weather li-ion loose power. About 25 km/h ..bluetooth android app.

When i might give you a tip or advice:

Try a "real" Euc...like a Kingsong or a Gotway.....the newer generation! An Airwheel with 15-18kmh is not really an EUC, its more a toy or a starter wheel.

Also your fatboy with 25kmh....please dont take that as an offense, this handlebar things are not known to be really powerfull or realiable.

 

Whenever you come across my town, contact me to try a a 3000Watt Euc...with 1000 or 1600wh...you will for sure want to have one also!!!

[lucian75]

Well,i have Airwheel for more than 3 years now..i need to admit that is not enough now..but at that time gotway kinsong it was quite expensive..i can pay more money..but i wasnt so interested. 

And you know better...Germany is Scheiße with EUC..fatboy don't help me at all with his size..but i really like it..

I don't go to competition ..i just enjoy it..i have first model,Star I ..i like it..And now fatboy is much improved...with lights..electric break..i think can be approved for road if they will make regulation for EUC. 

I have enough experience to don't need to use handlebar... if you look on that video în tv with Star I i ride it like EUC without to use handlebar.

 

[Joff]

I have a set of 6 3000f utracapacitors wired together to make a car starting "battery"  It has tremendous amp flowing capability, but wouldn't crank the car for an extended amount of time before running down.  Not a lot of amp hours.  It is much lighter than a lead acid car battery, and a bit smaller.  They seem light compared to lead batteries, but would be heavy and crazy bulky to try to put enough of these together to run a EU!  

[lucian75]

I see some one who use them for starting car. .mounted near battery...is good when you stop often in city and you don't drive enough time to battery to recover. In this way battery will have easy and longer life. 

But i saw later that they have 500 gr..in pictures it look small