Mono Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 30 minutes ago, LanghamP said: Tiltbacks require constant practice at say 5mph in order not to take you by surprise. I guess that depends on the rider and the wheel then. At least this is not my experience with the two of my wheels which provide tilt-back as speed limiter. It is for sure a good idea to start checking out tilt back at low speeds. But then, I never felt the need to integrate driving into tilt-back as a regular part of my training practice. If need be, I drive continuously into the tilt back, like these guys I never maximally accelerate up into tilt-back speed though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 3 hours ago, LanghamP said: Tiltbacks require constant practice at say 5mph in order not to take you by surprise. I think they are valuable if you have poor speed control and are in a noisy environment as you get a tactile instead of a vocal warning. Be advised creeping up slowly to a tiltback is different from blowing through one. Some wheels have the same tiltback process regardless of how quickly you blow through them whereas others rear up with evil intent. I know I'm lazy, but I do try to practice tiltback at super low speeds. I would also recommend treating tiltback as a very dangerous poisonous snake; do not make it a regular occurrence to step on it. You should be scared when you hit tiltback as the wheel is trying to warn you when you're in great danger. Better to just use a wheel that has no tilt-back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Better to just use a wheel that has no tilt-back One of the major disadvantages to true sportbike helmets is the difficulty of judging speeds, at least when the visor is down. Without that speed sensitivity you ram right through the tiltback setting, and that is likely to happen if you come off a big wheel. That has happened to me, which is why owning an MSuper isn't good for my health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 18 minutes ago, LanghamP said: One of the major disadvantages to true sportbike helmets is the difficulty of judging speeds, at least when the visor is down. Without that speed sensitivity you ram right through the tiltback setting, and that is likely to happen if you come off a big wheel. That has happened to me, which is why owning an MSuper isn't good for my health. I can somewhat attest to what you are saying. I just completed a 45-mile ride on my MSuper with a new fully enclosed helmet (see the Photo thread). Very comfortable, but I found myself riding faster than I normally do because I could hear or feel the wind like I normally do. Looks like 22-mph is my new norm Anything below 25-mph is safe on the MSuper (84-volt version) and I can still tell if I'm going that fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayRay Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 I noticed tiltback on a brief run recently. Maybe I imagined it, but it seemed gentle and almost considerate. (Like: hey, what's your hurry? Let's ease back a little...) Is tiltback more extreme the harder you push your wheel? (I'm a heavy guy, so I try to maintain a leisurely pace.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duaner Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 > Is tiltback more extreme the harder you push your wheel? Yes. Also: Tiltback behavior varies a lot(!) from model to model. And tiltback can also vary based on how rapidly you accelerate through the tiltback speed... If you accelerate slowly as you reach the tiltback speed, then the tiltback will kick in slowly (for most models). If you (choose to) accelerate rapidly as you reach/exceed the tiltback speed, then the tiltback can kick in so suddenly that it can "cause" loss of balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoinPostal Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 21 hours ago, Marty Backe said: His was really a freak failure. It's unfortunate because the experience really turned @GoinPostal off to Gotway. It's too bad that he couldn't recognize it as a one-off occurrence and that Gotway wheels don't generally fail when bumping into things. That’s the thing though Marty.. it’s not a one off. I was not (entirely) turned off to Gotway when it happened. However, immediately after it happened, Ian blew his mosfets jumping into sand, another guy blew his in a style similar to Ian’s incident sans the sand, you blew your m10 in a turnstile in a similar insident, and now the above vid. It’s not a one off by any means. It’s bad engineering. If I am going to balance on a wheel with my hair on fire I want good engineering and quality control on my side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 1 hour ago, GoinPostal said: That’s the thing though Marty.. it’s not a one off. I was not (entirely) turned off to Gotway when it happened. However, immediately after it happened, Ian blew his mosfets jumping into sand, another guy blew his in a style similar to Ian’s incident sans the sand, you blew your m10 in a turnstile in a similar insident, and now the above vid. It’s not a one off by any means. It’s bad engineering. If I am going to balance on a wheel with my hair on fire I want good engineering and quality control on my side. Ian explained his "sand trap" occurrence and it most certainly was not the same a your freakish 'bump' failure. My Mten3 failure was wholly unrelated to yours (no MOSFETs were harmed). I still think the failures are rare. Thousands of these MSuper's, ACM's, etc have been sold. The vast majority have not had blown MOSFETs and appear to be functioning. Most people don't make a post that says, "Hey, my XYZ wheel is still functioning great". On the other hand, when there's a failure they do. Relative to the number of wheels sold I don't read about many failures caused 'blown MOSFETs', which is the focus of this sub-thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 I think the mosfet failures are just because they buy them from the bargain bin at some random Chinese electronics market. If they don't blow right at the start (= they were just bad originally), they seem to be holding up very well. I wouldn't know of any reports where a mosfet blew in standard use after 1000km or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffroy Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 12/20/2017 at 12:11 PM, Smoother said: "Expensive isn't always better." Very true. As a saler, when you have a poor product you always can double the price, expecting the buyer drives himself to the conclusion "This is so expensive that it is obviously better". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoinPostal Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Ian explained his "sand trap" occurrence and it most certainly was not the same a your freakish 'bump' failure. My Mten3 failure was wholly unrelated to yours (no MOSFETs were harmed). I still think the failures are rare. Thousands of these MSuper's, ACM's, etc have been sold. The vast majority have not had blown MOSFETs and appear to be functioning. Most people don't make a post that says, "Hey, my XYZ wheel is still functioning great". On the other hand, when there's a failure they do. Relative to the number of wheels sold I don't read about many failures caused 'blown MOSFETs', which is the focus of this sub-thread. I respectfully disagree. 1. All listed incidents are related. The wheel gets stopped for an instant. 2. You view it as a mosfet thread, I view it as an engineering thread.. therefore, to me, your m10 incident AND your ACM melted wiring also count (though I grant you the ACM is outside the momentary wheel block). 3. I will concede that the failures are rare. However, Gotway engineering failures are (in my opinion) way higher than any of the other respectable wheels. It is the fact that their incident count is so much higher than KingSongs, or Segways, that I won’t own one. 4. This is subject to change when I see Gotway change their ways. The Tesla may be Gotways first quality wheel. I have yet to see any major incidents for the Tesla, and I am watching with great interest. I hope it signals a turn around for Gotway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 40 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I still think the failures are rare. Thousands of these MSuper's, ACM's, etc have been sold. The vast majority have not had blown MOSFETs and appear to be functioning. Most people don't make a post that says, "Hey, my XYZ wheel is still functioning great". On the other hand, when there's a failure they do. Relative to the number of wheels sold I don't read about many failures caused 'blown MOSFETs', which is the focus of this sub-thread. This is somewhat low amount of samples and only accounts for about half of last year (Feb-July 2017), but I think it does give some indication of failure rates: Here there is a full percentage of marriage for any service call due to electronic or electrical problems (here, mechanical damages and tire punctures are not taken into account)The percentage of rejects from sold devices during the period February-July 2017 is indicated. In brackets, my comments are highlighted by a frame. P.S. The recall company for Gotway is not included. Therefore, statistics on the Got are slightly larger in reality. Inmotin: V8 - 4.8% (excellent quality: wow :, there were a lot of sales) V5, +, F - 5.88% V3c, pro, s - 7.8% KingSong KS14B - 3.33% KS14C - 15% (due to low sales, as the model changed to 14d) KS14D - was not in the service (selling was enough) KS16 - 7.33% KS16S - 1.12% KS18 - 17,24% (transition to sports) KS18S - was not in the service (sales were moderate) GotWay MCM4 - 18.57% ACM 680,820 - 36,6% ACM 1300 - 35% (a small number of sales, according to my personal feelings this is the best of the gothweb) Msuper 680,820 - 11,11% (the average number of sales, here statistics is more visible) Msuper 1600 - 36.98% (every 3 users of a pregnant soup met in the service, the statistics could be a little lower, because in my memory there were repeated calls for the same problem) Monster - 23.4% (a small number of sales) 2. And here now I will show the statistics of the marriage in percent only on the controllers and sensors of the hall. Inmotin: V8 - 1,97% (the standard, as I already said) V5, +, F - 2.71% V3c, pro, s - 2,12% KingSong KS14B - 2% (reference wheel standard) KS14C - 10% KS14D - was not in the service (selling was enough) KS16 - 3,33% (the percentage of the marriage is halved due to the fuse on the board) KS16S - 1.12% (reference) KS18 - 6.89% (the percentage of rejects decreased threefold, 18 of the usual words had problems with the charging connectors and balancing the battery) KS18S - was not in the service (sales were moderate) GotWay MCM4 - 14.28% ACM 680,820 - 26,6% ACM 1300 - 14.28% (all problems are of the same type - controllers or hall sensors) Msuper 680,820 - 9,25% Msuper 1600 - 34,24% (every 3 users of a pregnant soup met in the service, the statistics could be a little lower, since in my memory there were repeated calls for the same problem) Monster - 23.4% (a small number of sales) Final output: Let's break our conclusion by brands. - Inmotion is very good with the quality of monocols and this statistics confirms this. Sales were many and the statistics complete. Inmotion keep it up, there is much to grow. But in general. Well done. - KingSong - the average percentage of rejects for old models (14c, 16 and 18). And the phenominal results for the new sports versions. I also want to note separately 14B - the best wheel for entering the monocoque tusovka in relation to quality. You pay a little, you drive sadly, but not in service: laugh:: laugh:: laugh: - Gotway - it's bad ... We need to work on quality. No model can compete in quality with either kingsong or inmoshenom. There are weak attempts at Msuper680, 820, but not enough. Msuper1600 - generally horror. 84B and the controller from gothve is a nuclear device. As I have already written many times - buying goths makes sense only when you understand what you are taking. Exceptionally speed. If you are not about the actress, unfortunately, goths should not be considered. I very much hope that the gothwa will draw its quality to the level of the standard set by Inmotion and KingSong. P.S. If you have something else to count or see - ask questions in the topic - I will try to find answers to them. Since October 2017, we will have a new program for recording faults and everything will be much better and clearer in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 10 minutes ago, GoinPostal said: I respectfully disagree. 1. All listed incidents are related. The wheel gets stopped for an instant. 2. You view it as a mosfet thread, I view it as an engineering thread.. therefore, to me, your m10 incident AND your ACM melted wiring also count (though I grant you the ACM is outside the momentary wheel block). 3. I will concede that the failures are rare. However, Gotway engineering failures are (in my opinion) way higher than any of the other respectable wheels. It is the fact that their incident count is so much higher than KingSongs, or Segways, that I won’t own one. 4. This is subject to change when I see Gotway change their ways. The Tesla may be Gotways first quality wheel. I have yet to see any major incidents for the Tesla, and I am watching with great interest. I hope it signals a turn around for Gotway. We can agree to disagree. I think that your view of the Tesla is not warranted. Their choice of components is still crappy and the quality control of assembly is still hit-and-miss. I have not looked in my Tesla yet, but I've rebuilt my Mten3 which is a contemporary wheel from Gotway. Not good. Yet if you want the Mten3 or Tesla experience, you suck it up and buy one I would not recommend that you buy a Tesla, you'll be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 1/2/2018 at 9:02 PM, Smoother said: Maybe my knowledge of what cooks MOSfets is not comprehensive, but in terms of the little twig in the video, that my posts are referring to, what do we think fried in the wheel, when a short burst made it fall over the twig? I thought it was a MOSfet. There's quite a long list of things that can cause a MOSfet to fail: https://www.4qd.co.uk/docs/mosfet-failure-mechanisms/ https://sites.google.com/site/scidiy/diy-electro/mosfet-s-and-how-they-can-fail Not sure if these even cover everything, a common way to kill a mosfet is overheating or overvoltage on the gate. A couple of months back, I destroyed my DIY motor driver in my CNC by static electricity. I milled, drilled & cut more than 50 different PCB designs, some more than one piece, on that same controller without any problems. When it failed, I was changing the bit, which I do a minimum of 2 times (if there are no holes to drill in the PCB) per board, usually more times (at least 1 for milling, 1 for cut out, and the amount of different sized drill holes) and always in a similar way (two spanners to release & tighten the ER-11 collet). When I touched a spanner onto the collet of the motor, suddenly the motor started running at full speed. The viable explanations are that it was a high voltage static discharge causing either an avalanche breakdown or high dV/dT (voltage change over time) -spike, do note that the part was connected to the drain of an N-channel mosfet, not the gate (which can only withstand +-25V difference to source, usually +-20V, but this mosfet is a bit "unusual" in that sense) or source. Both the gate and the drain-source -channel were destroyed (20 ohm resistance from drain to source, 36 ohms from gate to source), leaving the mosfet open at all times. Just last night I replaced the broken mosfet and the controller is running happily again. Also added some transient voltage suppressor diodes to prevent this from ever happening again. I don't recall seeing TVS-diodes in wheel boards though. Cost cutting? I'd expect that the high(er) voltage motors could (in rare cases) cause large enough spikes to toast a mosfet... How this actually relates to EUC Extreme's wheel is a bit lax, it's possible that when the motor cannot turn and high current runs in a spike through it, the inductance could cause a high enough voltage transient to destroy things. But of course, there are many other failure modes too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 1 hour ago, GoinPostal said: 3. I will concede that the failures are rare. Return rates for busted main boards or similar issues that I remember have been reported by Jason can IMHO not be qualified as rare even in the most charitable interpretation. IIRC only "exceptionally reliable" wheels make it below 1%, while 10% and above are almost considered as normal. EDIT: sorry, cross posted with the above much more specific numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoberAce Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 My KS16S Protected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr8ps Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 Lol. That is as protected as it is going to be, except maybe the handle. Nothing will really protect the underside of your pedal though, it will scrape the ground and wear down. Maybe attach some sort of skid plate made out of metal if you want to avoid it. Mine has worn down quite a bit. Also, don't forget to protect yourself. I decided to do some impromptu off roading and ate sh!t without any knee pads. Now I'm in a brace for six weeks and maybe surgery, depending on my MRI results. Helmet saved my chin though so there's that. Make sure you have good health insurance before you ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 3 hours ago, gr8ps said: off roading and ate sh!t without any knee pads. Now I'm in a brace for six weeks and maybe surgery, depending on my MRI results That sucks. I hope your MRI results are good. I'm starting to think this forum, is not a good place to come if you want to discover the "joys" of EUC riding; all these accidents (mine included, although I haven't had a real off since I switched from a 14c to a 16s. touch wood) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, Smoother said: That sucks. I hope your MRI results are good. I'm starting to think this forum, is not a good place to come if you want to discover the "joys" of EUC riding; all these accidents (mine included, although I haven't had a real off since I switched from a 14c to a 16s. touch wood) Putting a positive spin on our Forum, at least nobody reads about fatalities or broken necks. In the grand scheme of things, ours is still a remarkably safe activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranium Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: Putting a positive spin on our Forum, at least nobody reads about fatalities or broken necks. In the grand scheme of things, ours is still a remarkably safe activity. Umm...Maybe that's because it's hard for those people to post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, Cranium said: Umm...Maybe that's because it's hard for those people to post? Yeah, who didn't reply to that @Hunka Hunka Burning Love "Where are they now" thread? Maybe we should send out a search party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Onymous Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Everyone I know who has a bike has these same stories of broken bones and bruises and collar bone slings. The roads are just as dastardly as the forest for injuries and we will all have stories before we are done. Hey @Cranium when Steven Hawkings can ride a EUC we will all be safer for it. . . I think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 23 minutes ago, dmethvin said: Yeah, who didn't reply to that @Hunka Hunka Burning Love "Where are they now" thread? Maybe we should send out a search party. You're killing me ... 45 minutes ago, Cranium said: Umm...Maybe that's because it's hard for those people to post? It's hopeless ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Onymous Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 On January 7, 2018 at 7:39 AM, Marty Backe said: Most people don't make a post that says, "Hey, my XYZ wheel is still functioning great". On the other hand, when there's a failure th Well we all know about @Rehab1 and his accident, but just days before he posted this... I know you read both of those posts, because you like both posts. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffroy Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Ouah ! that's a wrapped wheel like Christo (the wrapper artist) would appreciate... Like you, I bought 2 rolls of this material, most of it is still on the shelf. I bought a black rubbed KS-16 to see it ... yes, I already destroyed part of it and the handle as well is bumped Do you intend to keep it clean in case of resaling? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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