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Tesla VS KS-16S: Looking for input from those of you that have both


Bryan Wells

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So some of you know me for reviews and comparisons between nine bots and the ks-18A.

Well It's your guy's time to share with me your thoughts on these two, I will end up purchasing one of them from my favorite distributor Ewheels, but I would like some brief input form you all.

I had ridden one of the first ks-16 units back in the day when they were just coming out, but i know the "s" model is taking this a bit further, and so is the Gotway Tesla.

first thing is first, what this wheel is going to be for? Given that we have nine bot's and they are likely my favorite wheel within it's speed capabilities because of pedal stiffness and overall "idling ability" that is through the roof! the sensitivity twitchy feeling is what I really appreciate. On the flip side if I leave the drive way I am massively limited on speed and range, this is when I typically have to hop on my ks-18 to go the distance. 

So you can see the gap here I am trying to fill. while i know 840 wh is plenty of range for me, the nine bot's tiny battery is not enough, and while the ks-18 goes far... it's pretty boring to ride.

 

here is my list of questions:

1. So for those of you that have both the ks-16S and the Tesla I am looking for a very unbiased opinion here. I know king Song has a reliable wheel, but is the Tesla that bad when you don't push it past lets say 23mph?  

2. this is high on my importance, What wheel idles easier, where you quickly move it back and fourth having the faster more stiff instant response? i'm looking for a ninebot style on roids :)

 

3. again battery life does not matter past 840wh for me so there is no real question here.

 

4. ease to turn very very sharp, i know this typically has to due with weather the wheel is hitting your inner leg restricting you from leaning it over. with that in mind i also know the Tesla is taller but is it narrow enough to still turn sharper or not?

 

5. Pedals, what are bigger? i'd like wider and longer pedals than the KS-16 but are the Gotway Tesla's bigger or no?

 

6. this is just an over all, what one do you prefer even though your riding priorities may be different than mine?

 

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3 hours ago, Bryan Wells said:

looking for a very unbiased opinion here. I know king Song has a reliable wheel, but is the Tesla that bad when you don't push it past lets say 23mph?  

2. this is high on my importance, What wheel idles easier, where you quickly move it back and fourth having the faster more stiff instant response? i'm looking for a ninebot style on roids :)

 

3. again battery life does not matter past 840wh for me so there is no real question here.

 

4. ease to turn very very sharp, i know this typically has to due with weather the wheel is hitting your inner leg restricting you from leaning it over. with that in mind i also know the Tesla is taller but is it narrow enough to still turn sharper or not?

 

5. Pedals, what are bigger? i'd like wider and longer pedals than the KS-16 but are the Gotway Tesla's bigger or no?

 

6. this is just an over all, what one do you prefer even though your ri

Ok, i have the Tesla...and a 18S and know the 16S...so i can say something i guess.

1. its not that problem to push the Tesla....its just that GW quality in general is crap or at least low. The tesla is a fantastiv wheel, but in contrary to  a KS you allways have in mind that something might fail soon...

2. both are 9B on roids and i promise you will never look back to the Ninebot....both are more agile, harder and faster!

3.???

4. with both you can turn sharp but the Tesla pedal clearance is higher and better! Less pedal scratching on tesla!

5. Same pedal length and wideness....no winner here!

6. The question is what you prefer...if you want a safe and reliable wheel and 35 is enough...go for the KS16S. If you want to go faster than 35kmh, and like a little risk, take the Tesla!

Both are great, the Tesla is great...hardest and agilest 16 inch wheel  i ever tried and owned....just that the board/mosfets are crap and there is a slightly risk of a a failure. Can happen, but must not! 

my 2 cents

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@Bryan Wells from your needs, it looks like the best thing to do for you is to go to your favorite store (if local) and try out the wheels. If not, maybe try to seek out some people nearby with these models, kindly enough to share you their baby. You know already the general differences in these 2 models and yet can't make a choice, just try them out.

Or buy them both :furious:

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm debating these two as well. I currently have a V8, and an M-Super. The M-Super kinda dropped in my lap when one of my best friends saw me riding my V8 and that night decided he had to have one, read a review and in a couple days had the powerful Gotway.  I went out to help him get started and he immediately crashed the shit out of it. The thing was doing summer salts down his street. He was horrified. His wife was horrified. So he gave it to me to buy for $1000. I took it with the intent of using it to shoot video from, but the first shoot I got on (Shooting a Mclaren 720s) as soon as I bent my knees to get a low angle it would start wobbling. REALLY, REALLY bad! So I'd back off and lose the shot. So I don't love it compared to my V8. What I DO like about it is the solid feeling which I assume is due to the xtra 20 lbs and the 18" wheel, the stability off road and of course the speed. I did get it up to 36mph once or twice (according to DarknessBot) and it was kinda scary! The tilting forward when turning is the dumbest thing E-V-E-R! And walking it is a joke. One time if fell over and started sawing away on my ankle. I had a scab for 2 weeks from the hungry 18" tire.

So I have two needs. One is doing errands, using the Subway, and basically goofing around. Right now that's 95% of my usage. The beauty of the V8 is it's light, well mannered when walking it and the button under the handle is very handy when walking down stairs. What I DON'T like about the V8 is: the lack of battery life, I get cramps from the small pedals on long journeys when I don't wear sturdy shoes (I have big feet) and the lack of power/stability. It's also pretty wobbly sub 5mph, but maybe they all are? Ideally I'd have one EUC that did everything and KS16s seems to have potential for that. My secondary need is filming which I'm hoping to do more of in 2018. The lure of all that power on the Tesla is inviting, and it's only 4lbs heavier than the 16s...But the thought of a unit that might cease up at any time is horrifying.

I got Jason's 2 cents @ EWheels, but I'd like to get the forums thoughts.

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7 hours ago, serfy said:

The tilting forward when turning is the dumbest thing E-V-E-R!

This is due to a bad calibration, and can be removed by calibrating the wheel and making sure it's NOT tilted sideways during the entire process.

The wobble is (most likely) because your muscles aren't used to the wheel yet and overcompensate when stressed (tired, unsure) which amplifies instead of dampens your balance corrections, which leads to wobbling. Nothing wrong with the wheel.

Just saying, don't write it off so easily.

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2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

This is due to a bad calibration, and can be removed by calibrating the wheel and making sure it's NOT tilted sideways during the entire process.

The wobble is (most likely) because your muscles aren't used to the wheel yet and overcompensate when stressed (tired, unsure) which amplifies instead of dampens your balance corrections, which leads to wobbling. Nothing wrong with the wheel.

Just saying, don't write it off so easily.

Up until very recently Gotway wheels are known to pedal dip during slow speed turns. That's not a calibration issue. Or what am I missing. BTW, the pedal dip has never really bothered me.

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9 hours ago, serfy said:

I'm debating these two as well. I currently have a V8, and an M-Super. The M-Super kinda dropped in my lap when one of my best friends saw me riding my V8 and that night decided he had to have one, read a review and in a couple days had the powerful Gotway.  I went out to help him get started and he immediately crashed the shit out of it. The thing was doing summer salts down his street. He was horrified. His wife was horrified. So he gave it to me to buy for $1000. I took it with the intent of using it to shoot video from, but the first shoot I got on (Shooting a Mclaren 720s) as soon as I bent my knees to get a low angle it would start wobbling. REALLY, REALLY bad! So I'd back off and lose the shot. So I don't love it compared to my V8. What I DO like about it is the solid feeling which I assume is due to the xtra 20 lbs and the 18" wheel, the stability off road and of course the speed. I did get it up to 36mph once or twice (according to DarknessBot) and it was kinda scary! The tilting forward when turning is the dumbest thing E-V-E-R! And walking it is a joke. One time if fell over and started sawing away on my ankle. I had a scab for 2 weeks from the hungry 18" tire.

So I have two needs. One is doing errands, using the Subway, and basically goofing around. Right now that's 95% of my usage. The beauty of the V8 is it's light, well mannered when walking it and the button under the handle is very handy when walking down stairs. What I DON'T like about the V8 is: the lack of battery life, I get cramps from the small pedals on long journeys when I don't wear sturdy shoes (I have big feet) and the lack of power/stability. It's also pretty wobbly sub 5mph, but maybe they all are? Ideally I'd have one EUC that did everything and KS16s seems to have potential for that. My secondary need is filming which I'm hoping to do more of in 2018. The lure of all that power on the Tesla is inviting, and it's only 4lbs heavier than the 16s...But the thought of a unit that might cease up at any time is horrifying.

I got Jason's 2 cents @ EWheels, but I'd like to get the forums thoughts.

Wheel wobble is a function of the rider, not the wheel. And I can ride any wheel at 1-mph with no wobbles. So I think you should practice your techniques more to eliminate the slow & fast speed wobbles.

If you are truly using the word 'horrifying', you should stick with KingSong for your peace of mind.

BTW, there is no wheel that does everything. Never will be. That's why many people have multiple wheels to cover the different scenarios that they ride in.

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After trying everything this far, (ebay wheels, ninebot, solowheel original, solowheel extreme, ks-16b, ks-18a, acm, and now tesla)  i's have to say the tesla is the most do it all of them all. and the power is worth it! also no pedal dip like they used to have.

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Might wrong here, but my theory is that someone who wrote the software thought it would help with turns.  It's a common finding that during slow, sharp turns there can be a tendency to stall out the wheel if you don't lean forwards enough.  I'd bet Marty's paycheque that this pedal tilt was a feature meant to try to compensate for that.

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2 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Might wrong here, but my theory is that someone who wrote the software thought it would help with turns.  It's a common finding that during slow, sharp turns there can be a tendency to stall out the wheel if you don't lean forwards enough.  I'd bet Marty's paycheque that this pedal tilt was a feature meant to try to compensate for that.

Hey, how did my paycheck get involved with this :confused1:

I definitely see the benefits to no pedal dip after getting my Tesla. But the dip that I get on my ACM never bothered me and actually feels kind of cool when you're doing a slow speed sharp turn - it's like the wheel leans into the turn.

Maybe someday we will have the options to adjust all of these settings via the app. I think Gotway has a real reluctance to mess with their API software (it hasn't changed in a couple of years). Thus we have the Tesla with cool ring lights but no ability to program them. If they ever get a good software development team maybe we'll start getting these features.

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4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

This is due to a bad calibration, and can be removed by calibrating the wheel and making sure it's NOT tilted sideways during the entire process.

The wobble is (most likely) because your muscles aren't used to the wheel yet and overcompensate when stressed (tired, unsure) which amplifies instead of dampens your balance corrections, which leads to wobbling. Nothing wrong with the wheel.

Just saying, don't write it off so easily.

I don't have this problem at all on the V8. I also have pretty strong legs. I grew up playing hockey and riding BMX and still ride Mtn Bikes. I can go slow on my wheel, but I cant keep it rolling straight. maybe that's just a practice thing. I have almost 500 miles under my belt so far. 400 on the V8 and 85 on the M-Super.

Maybe "horrifying" is too strong of a word, I just don't like the idea of failure at 25-30 mph. I wish there was a store here in LA. You can't even look at them before you buy them.

Wheel Mclaren SM.jpg

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@serfy is the Msuper a V3S+?  Some had issues with the stock firmware which would dump riders when it hit a bump.  Does it have the replacement control board or flash?  I don't know how you would check, but Jason likely knows.

I don't think anyone wants an unexpected failure at higher speeds.  I am not a huge daredevil myself, but I bought a Tesla anyways.  Crazy?  You bet!  I'll own that.  Purchasing a first model out from Gotway is quite a risky move considering their spotty history, but after checking out the redesigned elements I thought I would dive in.  So far I haven't been disappointed, and I hope that continues.  My legs are better now, and I hope the soreness doesn't come back.

Maybe sign up for one of the LA meets to compare wheels.  It sounds like Marty has a good group of members who don't mind comparing rides.  I wonder why you can't keep your V8 rolling straight.  Maybe tire pressure is too high? Leg length difference?  Sounds like for you the KS16S might be the best bet as high speed isn't really a desire, you need something very reliable, and the wheel you seek needs to have a sturdy handle.

Speed wobbles at low speed sounds like a control issue as you should be able to move ar a crawl speed.  Bending down at higher speeds is prone to wobbling.  Sounds like maybe you just need more practice at these to develop the muscle memory.  For me turning my head to look back took a while.  The wheel would veer to the side.  After much practice I can pretty much turn to look without any change in direction.

Also maybe gear up more.  I see you wear knee pads and a helmet which is great. Add in some wristguards and crash jacket, and you might feel more prepared at higher speeds.  Just look at what @noisycarlos and @YoshiSkySun wear.  They look ready for any speed and also the Zombie apocalypse at the same time!

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16 minutes ago, serfy said:

I don't have this problem at all on the V8. I also have pretty strong legs. I grew up playing hockey and riding BMX and still ride Mtn Bikes. I can go slow on my wheel, but I cant keep it rolling straight. maybe that's just a practice thing. I have almost 500 miles under my belt so far. 400 on the V8 and 85 on the M-Super.

Maybe "horrifying" is too strong of a word, I just don't like the idea of failure at 25-30 mph. I wish there was a store here in LA. You can't even look at them before you buy them.

Wheel Mclaren SM.jpg

 

2 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

@serfy is the Msuper a V3S+?  Some had issues with the stock firmware which would dump riders when it hit a bump.  Does it have the replacement control board or flash?  I don't know how you would check, but Jason likely knows.

I don't think anyone wants an unexpected failure at higher speeds.  I am not a huge daredevil myself, but I bought a Tesla anyways.  Crazy?  You bet!  I'll own that.  Purchasing a first model out from Gotway is quite a risky move considering their spotty history, but after checking out the redesigned elements I thought I would dive in.  So far I haven't been disappointed, and I hope that continues.  My legs are better now, and I hope the soreness doesn't come back.

Maybe sign up for one of the LA meets to compare wheels.  It sounds like Marty has a good group of members who don't mind comparing rides.

As @Hunka Hunka Burning Love says, join one of our many group rides to get some wider exposure to other wheels.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

As @Hunka Hunka Burning Love says, join one of our many group rides to get some wider exposure to other wheels.

l can HIGHLY recommend a ride with the LA crew! 

@serfy - you mention the frustration of not having a store in LA. Well we don't have a store anywhere in New Zealand. So, while I happened to be in the area, I joined Marty and 8 other riders for a 2.5 hour roll through Griffith Park. And l can't rate it highly enough... Not only is there a great insight into the range of wheels (and their differences), but also a huge amount of knowledge to be gained from the chats and discussions - including what you have to share with everyone else. 

l know I'm planning on a revisit the next time I'm in town... Hopefully I'll see you there! 

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We had these two discussions here already, a lot of times, but this is offtopic so just the TLDR:

  • Pedal dip is not a feature, because features don't tend to go away when you recalibrate the wheel properly. The dipping seems to happen when you calibrate the wheel (Gotway factory quality) while it's tilted sideways (left-right), which "twists" forward-backward tilt which the sensor measures and balances the wheel with. Therefore slow speed turns (= small radius = high sideways tilt in addition to the forwards-backwards tilt) is when dips mistakenly happen.
  • Wobble has nothing to do with leg strength or whatever. It seems to be a matter of training/being used to the wheel, and the legs being relaxed and not tired/cramped/tense because of a high speed or other unfamiliar situation (like gusts of wind from the side). It's entirely a subconscious thing. Your legs constantly do subtle, fast, automatic left-right weight shifts/moves to keep the sideways balance all the time, and if these "misfire" due to exhaustion or infamiliarity or whatever, they amplify instead of dampen the sideways instability, which is the wobbling. (This explanation is my theory why the wobble happens.)

--

On-topic: seems like the Tesla is clearly the better wheel in terms of anything but the most important part: quality and reliability not to kill you. So the answer (or rather the question) is, you want to risk it, or not?:efee96588e: 

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2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

We had these two discussions here already, a lot of times, but this is offtopic so just the TLDR:

  • Pedal dip is not a feature, because features don't tend to go away when you recalibrate the wheel properly. The dipping seems to happen when you calibrate the wheel (Gotway factory quality) while it's tilted sideways (left-right), which "twists" forward-backward tilt which the sensor measures and balances the wheel with. Therefore slow speed turns (= small radius = high sideways tilt in addition to the forwards-backwards tilt) is when dips mistakenly happen.
  • Wobble has nothing to do with leg strength or whatever. It seems to be a matter of training/being used to the wheel, and the legs being relaxed and not tired/cramped/tense because of a high speed or other unfamiliar situation (like gusts of wind from the side). It's entirely a subconscious thing. Your legs constantly do subtle, fast, automatic left-right weight shifts/moves to keep the sideways balance all the time, and if these "misfire" due to exhaustion or infamiliarity or whatever, they amplify instead of dampen the sideways instability, which is the wobbling. (This explanation is my theory why the wobble happens.)

--

On-topic: seems like the Tesla is clearly the better wheel in terms of anything but the most important part: quality and reliability not to kill you. So the answer (or rather the question) is, you want to risk it, or not?:efee96588e: 

Man, I have to experiment today. You are actually saying that the ACM has no pedal dip during slow speed turns if calibrated perfectly???

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58 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Man, I have to experiment today. You are actually saying that the ACM has no pedal dip during slow speed turns if calibrated perfectly???

(Sorry for offtopic)

If we are talking about the same thing, yes, no dipping.

I've had this with my first ACM. In curves, when you were slow or small-radius enough, the pedals would suddenly and notably dip forward, like it was trying to throw you off. Very confusing when trying to learn to ride curves. One calibration later, after someone here mentioned that this would solve it, the issue was gone completely. Did instantly calibrate my second ACM and never had a dipping problem with it either.

The (speculated, I believe I initially heard it from @KingSong69) key seems to be to hold the wheel NOT tilted sideways (left-right) significantly (does not have to be perfect, just roughly, and forward-backward tilt can be as crazy as you want it) when doing the calibration. Because the Gotway calibration is so confusing (I adapted it from the Speedyfeet video, same general idea, but other beeps), hold it NOT tilted sideways during the entire process, even when you think it's over, until the final restart (the last off and on again switching). I believe the actual calibration happens later than what would one assume, which is why (if I remember correctly) some people tried this and could not get rid of the dipping by recalibrating. I could.

Just took my ACM out and tested it, no dipping for as narrow curves as I would do.

Caveat: for me, narrow curves is like 1-1.5m turning radius. Any narrower, the pedals will scrape on the ground. I never managed to turn narrower, some people do (maybe some other technique, like only by shifting weight between the feet? Never practiced this, as the dipping was so confusing, and later I'd just learn from standard riding tours and skip any practicing). So if you can turn much narrower, there may be some extra, subtle "dipping" I've never exprienced. But I don't think there is.

So if you have dipping, do a recalibration and hold the wheel vertical sideways ALL the time until it's definitely done and over, and you have good chances the dipping will be gone after that. At least the one I know, where the pedals notably and suddenly tilt forward, it can hardly be mistaken or be unclear, very definitive thing that suddenly starts. (I thought you of all people knew about the dipping fix:efee47c9c8:... I was confused that multiple  known people started to rehash the dipping discussion in this thread. Guess info is easy to miss on this forum... or you just forgot:efeebb3acc:).

edit: If you want to experiment, you could intentionally hold the wheel tilted sideways during calibration and see if it produces more dipping, or dipping after you got rid of it. I don't think anyone tried this direction yet:efee8319ab:

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29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

(Sorry for offtopic)

If we are talking about the same thing, yes, no dipping.

I've had this with my first ACM. In curves, when you were slow or small-radius enough, the pedals would suddenly and notably dip forward, like it was trying to throw you off. Very confusing when trying to learn to ride curves. One calibration later, after someone here mentioned that this would solve it, the issue was gone completely. Did instantly calibrate my second ACM and never had a dipping problem with it either.

The (speculated, I believe I initially heard it from @KingSong69) key seems to be to hold the wheel NOT tilted sideways (left-right) significantly (does not have to be perfect, just roughly, and forward-backward tilt can be as crazy as you want it) when doing the calibration. Because the Gotway calibration is so confusing (I adapted it from the Speedyfeet video, same general idea, but other beeps), hold it NOT tilted sideways during the entire process, even when you think it's over, until the final restart (the last off and on again switching). I believe the actual calibration happens later than what would one assume, which is why (if I remember correctly) some people tried this and could not get rid of the dipping by recalibrating. I could.

Just took my ACM out and tested it, no dipping for as narrow curves as I would do.

Caveat: for me, narrow curves is like 1-1.5m turning radius. Any narrower, the pedals will scrape on the ground. I never managed to turn narrower, some people do (maybe some other technique, like only by shifting weight between the feet? Never practiced this, as the dipping was so confusing, and later I'd just learn from standard riding tours and skip any practicing). So if you can turn much narrower, there may be some extra, subtle "dipping" I've never exprienced. But I don't think there is.

So if you have dipping, do a recalibration and hold the wheel vertical sideways ALL the time until it's definitely done and over, and you have good chances the dipping will be gone after that. At least the one I know, where the pedals notably and suddenly tilt forward, it can hardly be mistaken or be unclear, very definitive thing that suddenly starts. (I thought you of all people knew about the dipping fix:efee47c9c8:... I was confused that multiple  known people started to rehash the dipping discussion in this thread. Guess info is easy to miss on this forum... or you just forgot:efeebb3acc:).

edit: If you want to experiment, you could intentionally hold the wheel tilted sideways during calibration and see if it produces more dipping, or dipping after you got rid of it. I don't think anyone tried this direction yet:efee8319ab:

Interesting, and thanks for expanding on this. I'm going to experiment a bit today. I calibrate my wheels and they are certainly vertical (by eye) when doing so. Of course we somehow could be talking about different things. And interestingly, if it is an issue with how I calibrate, funny that it's only on my ACM (all of my ACMs).

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There's tons of discussions on this if you manage to find it wherever it's hidden:efee612b4b: I guess we're talking about the same thing, but I remember at least one guy who could not get rid of the dipping this way, so maybe it's just bad luck or something entirely different is the cause. Eyeballing the sideways level worked for me. Maybe what also might be important is to keep the wheel steady during calibration, aka lean it on something instead of holding it vertical. Avoid anything really that might confuse or change the sensor orientation. My best bet:efee47c9c8:

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7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Interesting, and thanks for expanding on this. I'm going to experiment a bit today. I calibrate my wheels and they are certainly vertical (by eye) when doing so. Of course we somehow could be talking about different things. And interestingly, if it is an issue with how I calibrate, funny that it's only on my ACM (all of my ACMs).

I will add one of my very old posts ,maybe that's a help :

I have two identical ks18   however, calibration of the level I've discovered one peculiarity of my wheels. During calibration of the wheel to get a good result to be exactly vertical (if you seen from front or behind ) !  If the wheel is for calibration a little lean towards the side, becomes is soft and poorly controlled, after calibration !

Now I'm calibrate always support the wheel against the wall so that almost wants to topple over ( Vertically as possible and keep in contact with the wall ).

In this way, I have received all of the pedal positions usable . 

One observation is still : Full power will let the wheel only if in player mode ! As proof of this ,drive  learning or cycling mode in the terrain and the wheel itself can even turn off If it appears bigger and steep hurdle . If player mode, in the same place is absolutely not a problem !  Both my two KS18, exactly the same case. Therefore, always I use the player mode !

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@Marty Backe @meepmeepmayer

Yip, i brought that up, this "holding perfectly vertical" when calibrating.

Actually back in the time there has been an officialy video advice by a Kingsong engineer to do so to get rid of the pedal curve dip symptom and as i found out it worked for Msuper V3, too and some group ride friends also got their GW's better by doing so. Sometimes the dipping goes away, sometimes it gets better. On the GW the pedal dip can stay, but its very slightly then. 

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On 12/16/2017 at 12:20 AM, The Fat Unicyclist said:

l can HIGHLY recommend a ride with the LA crew! 

@serfy - you mention the frustration of not having a store in LA. Well we don't have a store anywhere in New Zealand. So, while I happened to be in the area, I joined Marty and 8 other riders for a 2.5 hour roll through Griffith Park. And l can't rate it highly enough... Not only is there a great insight into the range of wheels (and their differences), but also a huge amount of knowledge to be gained from the chats and discussions - including what you have to share with everyone else. 

l know I'm planning on a revisit the next time I'm in town... Hopefully I'll see you there! 

I'm watching for the next ride!

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I used my wheel to shoot the first remote controlled 18 wheeler yesterday as we were right next to an airport. Pretty cool!

BTW does the LA group do rides in LA?  I'd be down to do something this next week if anyone is down.

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On 12/16/2017 at 9:33 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

There's tons of discussions on this if you manage to find it wherever it's hidden:efee612b4b: I guess we're talking about the same thing, but I remember at least one guy who could not get rid of the dipping this way, so maybe it's just bad luck or something entirely different is the cause. Eyeballing the sideways level worked for me. Maybe what also might be important is to keep the wheel steady during calibration, aka lean it on something instead of holding it vertical. Avoid anything really that might confuse or change the sensor orientation. My best bet:efee47c9c8:

I experimented with this today and did notice a difference when I purposefully calibrated the wheel when leaning it to one side. But otherwise I couldn't eliminate the dipping. Then again what I'm calling dipping that I experience might not be the same thing. I like how my ACM handles regardless, so I'm good :)

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