My Mten3 Broke and What I'm Doing About it

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

On 2017-11-23 at 1:31 PM, Marty Backe said:

That's hilarious. And I don't even speak French - but I love the enthusiasm that the French have for EUCs 

I'm telling you man, get that Marty Backe^TM fashion merch out there!!    T-shirts, hoodies, riding pants, MB wrist guards, Backe in Black riding shoes... the possibilities are endless!  

Some Marty Backe^TM inspired apparel logos:

[LanghamP]

On 11/20/2017 at 6:42 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

The 14D on the other hand is a smaller-ish allrounder (16 inches would be the standard allrounder recommendation for a bit more offroading and stability, 18 works too, but 14 is the lower end of the allrounder scale) and is sold by ewheels as the default, not too crazy-priced (aka some notable amount under $1000), current/latest model, "real" wheel (it replaced the Inmotion V5F in this regard) with a price that won't scare away a new, interested person who not already owns a EUC, and who may be on the fence. That's why you get comparably much for the money with a 14D. Lower-margin gateway drug  The supposed mass market choice for new people.

(And if you want quality, especially regarding electronics, the new Kingsongs 14D/S, 16S, 18S are just a big step above the rest.)

The 14d is a much better wheel than the V5F. I've ridden both and the 14d is just fantastic, and yet the 14s is much better.

For general all-around use the 14d/14s/16s could be the last wheel you would want or need for several, perhaps many, years, they are that good. My nod goes to the 14d/s over my 16s simply due to my circumstances, but a person living in a more open urban environment can and should get the 16s.

Interestingly, perhaps suicidally, the MTen3 has a higher top speed than the 35kph of the KS16s which shows just what expert only riders Gotway expects to sell to.

[eddiemoy]

19 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

An easy preventative measure could be the addition of an inline XT60 50-60A fuse. It's surely got to be a better solution than jury-rigging a conductive bridge between the packs for every turnstile encounter.

Come on Gotway, get your act together, this is elementary level Electronics here! 

jason, with an inline fuse, it would cause a face plant?

[Smoother]

On 24/11/2017 at 1:40 PM, eddiemoy said:

jason, with an inline fuse, it would cause a face plant?

Everything causes a face plant.  But with a fuse at least when your face heals, you wont have to start a thread about why your wheel wont turn on,  assuming you thought to check the fuse first, of course.

I believe all Krack Songs have fuses, both of mine  do, and I suspect both of yours do too.  And while I'm no stranger to face plants, (they're my favorite variety, especially in claret red ), I've never burned out a fuse.  40A, before you ask.

[Scatcat]

58 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Everything causes a face plant.  But with a fuse at least when your face heals, you wont have to start a thread about why your wheel wont turn on,  assuming you thought to check the fuse first, of course.

I believe all Krack Songs have fuses, both of mind do, and I suspect both of yours do too.  And while I'm no stranger to face plants, (they're my favorite variety, especially in claret red ), I've never burned out a fuse.  40A, before you ask.

Well, my GT16 will happily tilt-back if I hit about 35A at 80% charge. As long as you have security settings in the wheel that won't let you get that type of spikes, you're good. The fuse will burn if something is seriously wrong, and not necessarily because you go fast. The worst spikes in my limited experience come at pretty low speeds when you push hard.

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, Smoother said:

Everything causes a face plant.

 Unfortunately, this is sooooooooooo true... 

2 hours ago, Scatcat said:

Well, my GT16 will happily tilt-back if I hit about 35A at 80% charge.

This is marvelous! Actual software based warnings and monitoring! With a reasonable, very safe (almost too safe) number!  Their upcoming 18 incher might be an unexpected surprise winner if they continue this way.

[Scatcat]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

 Unfortunately, this is sooooooooooo true... 

This is marvelous! Actual software based warnings and monitoring! With a reasonable, very safe (almost too safe) number!  Their upcoming 18 incher might be an unexpected surprise winner if they continue this way.

Actually it may be slightly higher than 35A. I got a spike with a tilt-back today going slightly uphill in a headwind at about 22-25mph. Checking the log in wheellog I read the spike at about 35A, but it might have been 36 or even 37A, as I read it while riding. It is pretty consistent with other overpower tilt-backs I've had, it tilts around that number, keeping a few amps in reserve for when you really need it. It is also pretty consistent with an 80% power tilt-back, if you presume the max continuous amperage is 10-11A per pack for the Sanyo's.

[meepmeepmayer]

I forgot the number of parallel packs matters, too (ACM has 6, vs. the 4 of the GT16), not just the "Don't fry my wires, bro!" thing. 35A is a good number then, and I don't think it makes sense to be that precise technically so that a few A +/- are important. Batteries are chemical (= not perfectly predictable) after all, the size vs. duration of a spike is more or less a question of definition, etc.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

jason, with an inline fuse, it would cause a face plant?

This is silly. Without the fuse the battery is destroyed and you face plant. At least with the fuse you still have a working battery after the face plant.

So incorporating a fuse does not cause a face plant in the sense that you wrote this comment.

You are aware that your beloved KingSong 18S has a fuse?

[meepmeepmayer]

If the fuse blows when the battery would have survived (or rather the BMS not switched it off?), that's an extra faceplant.

Any hardware protection safety measure that does not include the wheel warning you (beeps, tiltback) means extra danger (also from the possibility of failure of that part on its own).

So it has to be done in software. Please, dear manufacturers!

[Marty Backe]

20 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If the fuse blows when the battery would have survived (or rather the BMS not switched it off?), that's an extra faceplant.

Any hardware protection safety measure that does not include the wheel warning you (beeps, tiltback) means extra danger (also from the possibility of failure of that part on its own).

So it has to be done in software. Please, dear manufacturers!

I agree with your final assessment of course. But I do think that all of these scenarios where MOSFETs burn, batteries burn, and wires burn, occur at slow speeds where you have a little tumble. In these cases I would prefer the option of replacing a fuse (assuming they don't do it in software).

Tilt-back or beeps is way too slow. In my turnstile incident, it blew in a couple of seconds.

[meepmeepmayer]

Some compromises may be necessary Guess you're right.

Still don't trust fuses, at least when Gotway would use them, but that's on them, not the fuses. I think that's the point. I don't trust them with any extra parts that can fail

[eddiemoy]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

This is silly. Without the fuse the battery is destroyed and you face plant. At least with the fuse you still have a working battery after the face plant.

So incorporating a fuse does not cause a face plant in the sense that you wrote this comment.

You are aware that your beloved KingSong 18S has a fuse?

Yes, aware there is a fuse in the 18S, but it is designed so that the fuse isn't hit.  Maybe if you are hit by a lightning bolt?  I've not heard of anyone blowing a fuse in the 18S, have you?  But putting fuse in poorly design wheel will cause cut out when fuse it tripped.  In this case with the Gotway, there is no software to limit the current draw surely the fuse will blow causing the face plant.  I would want a wheel that has sufficient tolerances to prevent these issues.  But I guess that is just me being safe.

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Yes, aware there is a fuse in the 18S, but it is designed so that the fuse isn't hit.  Maybe if you are hit by a lightning bolt?  I've not heard of anyone blowing a fuse in the 18S, have you?  But putting fuse in poorly design wheel will cause cut out when fuse it tripped.  In this case with the Gotway, there is no software to limit the current draw surely the fuse will blow causing the face plant.  I would want a wheel that has sufficient tolerances to prevent these issues.  But I guess that is just me being safe.

I don't understand  what "fuse isn't hit" means. Are you implying that KingSong has designed their wheels not to need a fuse, but they put one in there anyway?

People always say how nice it is that KingSong puts fuses in their wheels. But when I say maybe Gotway should incorporate fuses in their wheels, you say that's a bad thing (causes face plants). I'm confused 

[eddiemoy]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't understand  what "fuse isn't hit" means. Are you implying that KingSong has designed their wheels not to need a fuse, but they put one in there anyway?

People always say how nice it is that KingSong puts fuses in their wheels. But when I say maybe Gotway should incorporate fuses in their wheels, you say that's a bad thing (causes face plants). I'm confused 

Think the fuse was carried over from the 18A.  I've not ever heard of anyone hitting the fuse in the 18S.  

[eddiemoy]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't understand  what "fuse isn't hit" means. Are you implying that KingSong has designed their wheels not to need a fuse, but they put one in there anyway?

People always say how nice it is that KingSong puts fuses in their wheels. But when I say maybe Gotway should incorporate fuses in their wheels, you say that's a bad thing (causes face plants). I'm confused 

Let me elaborate.  Putting in a fuse after the fact to prevent a known problem of batteries blowing up isn't a good thing.  All this is going to do is introduce random face plants.  If it was put in to prevent some random event from killing the system like it was put in the 18A then good.  But it looks like KS has solved their fuse issue by fixing their design in the 18S so the fuse isn't hit anymore.  

[trya]

@Marty Backe I tend to agree with @eddiemoy: if fuse is inserted to protect electronic components which are designed to withstand certain max current - his might be OK (to protect the board, which otherwise will blow anyway) - however this seems to be a simple case of a badly designed bridge. Making the appropriate quality conductive strip, which withstands the power surges - is the correct fix in this case, I think. Your fix seems to be perfect without any fuse.

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, trya said:

@Marty Backe I tend to agree with @eddiemoy: if fuse is inserted to protect electronic components which are designed to withstand certain max current - his might be OK (to protect the board, which otherwise will blow anyway) - however this seems to be a simple case of a badly designed bridge. Making the appropriate quality conductive strip, which withstands the power surges - is the correct fix in this case, I think. Your fix seems to be perfect without any fuse.

 

26 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Let me elaborate.  Putting in a fuse after the fact to prevent a known problem of batteries blowing up isn't a good thing.  All this is going to do is introduce random face plants.  If it was put in to prevent some random event from killing the system like it was put in the 18A then good.  But it looks like KS has solved their fuse issue by fixing their design in the 18S so the fuse isn't hit anymore.  

Of course I agree with the both of you, that it's another "Gotway hack" - and that's assuming they added a fuse, which they probably wont 

[Stanor]

I just dismounted my wheel to secure the battery so as not to find myself in the situation of @Marty Backe and Jef (FR). Guess what I'm seeing ???? 

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

It still would be nice to see if someone can test the strip to see if it is 99% nickel or nickel coated stainless steel.  All that current demand going from the two packs through that ground strip is making it into a Gotway Grill^TM heating element.  Fashion a small metal box around that strip, and one could cook a small chicken nugget over the span of a trip!   Mmmm Gotway Fried Chicken... GFC!  Just need the I for interrupter... 

[Scatcat]

50 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Of course I agree with the both of you, that it's another "Gotway hack" - and that's assuming they added a fuse, which they probably wont 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it seem that the biggest problem overall for GW are power spikes?

It is as if the combination of hardware and firmware doesn't include any provision for limiting power runaway conditions... There should be some damper built in to protect MOSFETs, capacitors, wires, batteries and so on. The obvious place to put such a provision would be in the firmware, making sure sudden inputs don't burn out the circuits.

It's a simple thing to do, but of course like with Clausewitz comments about simplicity in war even simple things are quite complicated. You need to create a selective lag, that will stop sudden spikes, without creating hesitation in the firmware. Compensating for not allowing the power-rise to go beyond a certain limit within a certain time-span, with applying the power actually allowed for a few fractions of a second more. For example, if the combination of starting uphill at slow speed and a sudden bump in hard mode creates a "requested" spike of 100A for a twentieth of a second, that is probably not what is really needed, and something will probably burn if that power is allowed. It would be better to provide 40A for three tenths of a second to achieve the same stabilising effect without burning anything. Or am I wrong here?

If the firmware has functions to limit spikes, adding a fuse is actually only for those WTF anomalies where the built in limits can't do anything. Where the alternatives are a face plant with fried circuits OR a face plant without fried circuits.

Having used both GT16V1 and GT16V2, I think I can safely say that V1 had the same problem I described above. There was nothing limiting anything, and there were reports of fried boards. V2 on the other hand won't let you do the stupid unless you're set on being terminally stupid... 

[Scatcat]

21 minutes ago, Stanor said:

I just dismounted my wheel to secure the battery so as not to find myself in the situation of @Marty Backe and Jef (FR). Guess what I'm seeing ???? 

 

If Gotway had been a US, EU, South Korean, Taiwanese or Japanese company, that there would mean a full recall/free replacement scheme costing a small fortune...

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

2 hours ago, Scatcat said:

If Gotway had been a US, EU, South Korean, Taiwanese or Japanese company, that there would mean a full recall/free replacement scheme costing a small fortune...

Instead they probably are thinking about how they can install a small fan to blow over that area or maybe add in a heatsink...   Just kidding!  Don't punish me Gotway Gods!

[Stanor]

traces of oxidation ... so there is steel ...

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

  I wish Marty would have cut a small piece off and done the water rust immersion test before he closed things up.  That could explain the resistance in that piece and subsequent heat buildup leaking to critical melting failure?  I bet that strip glows red hot before it separates... just like an oven element...