My Mten3 Broke and What I'm Doing About it

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Well guys, here's the conclusion to my little Mten3 repair odyssey. I'm sorry @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer", but you're not going to get my battery pack. Thanks for the push to dig deeper into though 

Good job "Grasshopper"! It is a good feeling to breath new life into a wheel.The only suggestion I might make,and I hate to say this especially to an electrical engineer,is next time use stranded wire.It endures vibration much better than solid wire;which is why it is never used in vehicles.But since it attached to a thin nickle strip with double redundancy and an outer cover,it should be of no concern.

[Stanor]

good work @Marty ! I share the info on the french forum. Concerning me, I plan to do what you did in prevention. I'll do it at the end of this week. I can not do it now, so let's keep our fingers together so it does not burn during the week.

@jbwheel, Je pense que cette réparation est nécessaire pour sécuriser nos Mten3. 

 

[Chriull]

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

OK, I have since more closely inspected the two cells and the damage appears to be localized to the plastic. I've measure the voltage on both packs and they are the same.

Grats! But even if the voltage is the same by now, this one or two cells still could have the chance to be worn down a bit by this incident and that just their second paralleled cell keeps up the voltage (by some extra stress). Or they just lost a bit of capacity and increased a bit their resistance... Or nothing happened and just the plastic cover was inflicted.

Some discharge/charge cycles while watching the cells (temperature, looking for some "bloating") would have been a nice double check besides the optical inspection.

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Sooooo, I just soldered a piece of 12 gauge wire onto the tabs, and the solder seems very secure. I think I'll add another wire as you suggest for redundancy 

Folks, I'm going to try and put this wheel back together!

 

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Too late, it's a done deal. I'm all about positivety, and this new wheel is going to burn a MOSFET next time before it blows a battery pack 

But if everything is well put together again also comparing the charge curves with something like the charge doctor could give a hint (lost capacity).

Even if you don't have past logs comparing future logs for possibly showing higher degradation could give a hint.

(Also changes could be too small to be really distinguishable and by this hopefully lead to no real probs but maybe a bit shorter lifetime)

... Or you have just fun driving and are a bit more carefull while charging (smell, no unattended charging,...). If someting should be really wrong you'll notice it by shorter range and/or performance...

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Grats! But even if the voltage is the same by now, this one or two cells still could have the chance to be worn down a bit by this incident and that just their second paralleled cell keeps up the voltage (by some extra stress). Or they just lost a bit of capacity and increased a bit their resistance... Or nothing happened and just the plastic cover was inflicted.

Some discharge/charge cycles while watching the cells (temperature, looking for some "bloating") would have been a nice double check besides the optical inspection.

 

But if everything is well put together again also comparing the charge curves with something like the charge doctor could give a hint (lost capacity).

Even if you don't have past logs comparing future logs for possibly showing higher degradation could give a hint.

(Also changes could be too small to be really distinguishable and by this hopefully lead to no real probs but maybe a bit shorter lifetime)

... Or you have just fun driving and are a bit more carefull while charging (smell, no unattended charging,...). If someting should be really wrong you'll notice it by shorter range and/or performance...

Hopefully I won't have any problems. I know exactly the range that I was getting before, so I'll monitor it. But I was able to get a good look at the two cells and they did not seem to be affected. Time will tell, but I'm hopeful. Thanks.

[Scatcat]

If you get nominal voltage out of the pack and normal endurance, the cells are probably good. I know I am one of those that frequently tell fellow vapers and other ppl handling lithium batteries to show them respect, since they contain the same amount of energy as several grams of TNT. But in reality they are not that fragile. Unless you have punctures, serious dents or the battery has vented, the battery is probably good.

The damage that could affect such a cell, would be overdraw of power, where just that cell got temporarily shorted. But looking at the damage that seems unlikely. Even if that happened, and unless you had a vent, the damage done is not catastrophic, but will rather just lead to fewer cycles and less capacity.

And people, how many parallels there are in the design may or may not mean it's enough for safety. It depends a lot on which cells are chosen for the packs. Some cells can take a continuous power for the whole cycle, but will get damage after a rather short spike of twice that power. While others take almost no damage at all, even with loads that are four times the nominal, as long as the spikes remain short.

Consider the Sony VTC5A. They have a CDA of 25A, but can take 40A for five to ten seconds without failing or getting damaged. They will temporarily drop something like a Volt while pulling such amps, but they can do it. Suppose someone put VTC5As in a 20s2p, that would mean the pack could give you ~5kW or so for a few seconds.

I doubt any EUC mfg's will ever put VTC5As in their packs, if for no other reason that the things are pretty expensive. But even the cells they use can take a lot more than we think.

[meepmeepmayer]

Wow this thread moved so fast, I missed the extra pages. mten3 repaired! Good job documenting all of this, Marty!  I wish Gotway would care. We have to post those fried metal strip in the battery - pictures somewhere where they will see them and feel the need to react. Some Facebook group maybe?

@aalenkin The 14D really screams "take me!" at you.

The mten3 is comparably expensive because the battery is quite big for its size (batteries are what cost the most), it's a specialty wheel (not so much an allrounder) for people who most likely already have a EUC and are thus ready to burn any amount of money needed to get their fix, and it seems all manufacturers are trying to hike prices agressively lately as well. But to be fair, it seems to be a fantastically fun wheel for joyriding (not so much serious commuting when you may be tired or distracted and just want to get somewhere on some days) that everyone says is worth it.

The 14D on the other hand is a smaller-ish allrounder (16 inches would be the standard allrounder recommendation for a bit more offroading and stability, 18 works too, but 14 is the lower end of the allrounder scale) and is sold by ewheels as the default, not too crazy-priced (aka some notable amount under $1000), current/latest model, "real" wheel (it replaced the Inmotion V5F in this regard) with a price that won't scare away a new, interested person who not already owns a EUC, and who may be on the fence. That's why you get comparably much for the money with a 14D. Lower-margin gateway drug  The supposed mass market choice for new people.

(And if you want quality, especially regarding electronics, the new Kingsongs 14D/S, 16S, 18S are just a big step above the rest.)

That doesn't mean you should get a 14D now if you're unsure. Maybe save for a 16 incher, maybe you find a well-priced used wheel, maybe get any cheap wheel to start, whatever you are comfortable with when you are comfortable to make a decision or a lucky offer occurs . Just some info how I'd explain the prices.

(Also, a big part of choosing is listening to your intuition and what you feel you instinctively want, do that)

[dmethvin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VkrUG3OrPc

[Smoother]

Well done @Marty Backe .  However, I have an apology to make.  When I watched your first video, exploring the problem, I thought you rushed to judgment about the control board.  I would not have ruled out other causes, without an elimination process.  I don't know why I didn't voice my thoughts.  Maybe I had been posting too much that day, or something.  Anyway I'm glad someone else pushed you to go further, and what a result.  Well done, again.

 

[Marty Backe]

17 hours ago, Smoother said:

Well done @Marty Backe .  However, I have an apology to make.  When I watched your first video, exploring the problem, I thought you rushed to judgment about the control board.  I would not have ruled out other causes, without an elimination process.  I don't know why I didn't voice my thoughts.  Maybe I had been posting too much that day, or something.  Anyway I'm glad someone else pushed you to go further, and what a result.  Well done, again.

 

Thanks. All's well that ends well as they say  I obviously learned something through this whole exercise. I guess the more we use and break these things, the more knowledgeable we get. Now I want to stay dumb for awhile, if you know what I mean 

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

8 hours ago, Smoother said:

Anyway I'm glad someone else pushed you to go further, and what a result.  Well done, again.

 

I resemble that remark.

[Smoother]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Now I want to stay dumb for awhile, if you know what I mean 

Yes we do, me too.  Unfortunately, I'm about to get very smart about 14C axles.  wish me luck. (oh and a timing belt on a Lexus LS430, my first 'ave a go' when it comes to timing belts.)

[Smoother]

empty

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

Yes we do, me too.  Unfortunately, I'm about to get very smart about 14C axles.  wish me luck. (oh and a timing belt on a Lexus LS430, my first 'ave a go' when it comes to timing belts.)

Nothing could go wrong there  

Good luck with your axle 

[Rehab1]

On 11/19/2017 at 10:52 PM, Marty Backe said:

Well guys, here's the conclusion to my little Mten3 repair odyssey. I'm sorry @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer", but you're not going to get my battery pack. Thanks for the push to dig deeper into though 

Awesome job Marty!   Like @meepmeepmayer stated this thread (and repair) moved fast! I think you really missed your Mten3! 

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, Rehab1 said:

Awesome job Marty!   Like @meepmeepmayer stated this thread (and repair) moved fast! I think you really missed your Mten3! 

Thanks. I really did miss it. Almost makes me want to get a backup Mten3 

[US69]

@Marty Backe

You are not alone with your Problem......on the French Forum the same battery fault happend to someone after 3 (in words: Three) minutes after taking his Mten3 out of package:

 

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/3967-mten3-batterie-cramée-résolu/?do=findComment&comment=82309

 

 

@allMten Owners:

You should really check your battery!!!

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

From the package into a turnstile in 3 minutes. Must have been a beginner's mistake

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

@Marty Backe

You are not alone with your Problem......on the French Forum the same battery fault happend to someone after 3 (in words: Three) minutes after taking his Mten3 out of package:

 

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/3967-mten3-batterie-cramée-résolu/?do=findComment&comment=82309

 

 

@allMten Owners:

You should really check your battery!!!

 

 

Yes, @jbwheel (French) suggested one of the fixes earlier in this thread.

Suggesting that the battery be checked can't hurt, but you don't understand what's involved to do so. If you saw my tear-down video, the wheel has to be substantially disassembed, spend on hour prying the battery case apart, and then destructively removing the blue heat shrink wrap, soldering, etc. It's probably unrealistic to expect most people to do this.

The French Forum is interesting. The picture of that other burned battery pack looked just like mine. Disturbing to read that it failed from just riding for a few minutes. Surely there was a bit of bad luck in his case?

At least I feel safe with mine now that my battery pack does not depend on the nickel strip.

[radial]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Yes, @jbwheel (French) suggested one of the fixes earlier in this thread.

Suggesting that the battery be checked can't hurt, but you don't understand what's involved to do so. If you saw my tear-down video, the wheel has to be substantially disassembed, spend on hour prying the battery case apart, and then destructively removing the blue heat shrink wrap, soldering, etc. It's probably unrealistic to expect most people to do this.

The French Forum is interesting. The picture of that other burned battery pack looked just like mine. Disturbing to read that it failed from just riding for a few minutes. Surely there was a bit of bad luck in his case?

At least I feel safe with mine now that my battery pack does not depend on the nickel strip.

3

I'm super impressed that you worked your way through that repair, but it would be beyond my limited skills.  I would happily ship my wheel off to someone else to do this repair for a reasonable fee.  If @Jason McNeil is going to be selling the Mten3 in the U.S., I wonder if he would offer that kind of service for sale.  

[Jason McNeil]

An easy preventative measure could be the addition of an inline XT60 50-60A fuse. It's surely got to be a better solution than jury-rigging a conductive bridge between the packs for every turnstile encounter.

Come on Gotway, get your act together, this is elementary level Electronics here! 

[Smoother]

this is what the French rider said (Google translate, tidied up a bit by me.  it appears he rode it 3 meters, not 3 minutes, and there was a problem with the control board first.

"Not seen in disassembly, in fact the "problem" is produced in two stages. 
1) - 3 m traveled in my office, the wheel shakes, I reach down and hold it by the handle, it races as if I lifted it, I turn it off. 
2) - I charge it (assuming that the battery is too lightly charged is responsible for this behavior.) 
When the indicator light of the charger turns green, I press on, the wheel beeps, shakes, races again and I see a slight smoke inside the light housing, I do not remember if the wheel shuts itself off, or if  it's me who shuts it off..

A well placed fuse could have avoided problem?"

 

Interestingly, @Marty Backe you're all over the french forum, like a bad rash.  Next time I go into London, I half expect to see 100 pictures of you posing with a wheel, one every 5 feet on the escalators going down to the  tube. 

 

[Marty Backe]

57 minutes ago, Smoother said:

this is what the French rider said (Google translate, tidied up a bit by me.  it appears he rode it 3 meters, not 3 minutes, and there was a problem with the control board first.

"Not seen in disassembly, in fact the "problem" is produced in two stages. 
1) - 3 m traveled in my office, the wheel shakes, I reach down and hold it by the handle, it races as if I lifted it, I turn it off. 
2) - I charge it (assuming that the battery is too lightly charged is responsible for this behavior.) 
When the indicator light of the charger turns green, I press on, the wheel beeps, shakes, races again and I see a slight smoke inside the light housing, I do not remember if the wheel shuts itself off, or if  it's me who shuts it off..

A well placed fuse could have avoided problem?"

 

Interestingly, @Marty Backe you're all over the french forum, like a bad rash.  Next time I go into London, I half expect to see 100 pictures of you posing with a wheel, one every 5 feet on the escalators going down to the  tube. 

 

That's hilarious. And I don't even speak French - but I love the enthusiasm that the French have for EUCs 

[Scatcat]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

An easy preventative measure could be the addition of an inline XT60 50-60A fuse. It's surely got to be a better solution than jury-rigging a conductive bridge between the packs for every turnstile encounter.

Come on Gotway, get your act together, this is elementary level Electronics here! 

I'm utterly fascinated by Gotway as a company. How they combine brilliance with pure distilled fecal matter...

Like in this case.

On their hands they have a stunningly brilliant concept, refined to 10" of pure joy. Everybody who's tried it like to recite poetry about its magnificence. Then it turns out some high school level moron that can't count to eleven with shoes on have decided to join the battery packs with the equivalent of candy tin foil... It makes you wonder if they actually WANT to survive long term as a company? Gotway can't afford many more flaps like this. Already there are quite a few sellers that won't carry their wheels because all the reclamations and service requirements eats into the margins violently.

GOTWAY, it is so simple: When you design a new wheel, let a certified experienced electric engineer go through the design and make sure it can safely take the strain we put on it. It will cost you a few thousand dollars, which you will reclaim within the first months in spare parts you don't have to send out, and returns you will avoid. Your sales will also go up, slowly at first as people won't really believe you've cleaned up your act, but faster and faster as people realise they can now safely get the fastest and most exhilarating products without expecting failure.

I respect @Marty Backe for his love of Gotway wheels, and I sure as hell would like to have a working MTen3, Tesla or Monster, for the fun and brilliance of the concepts. But WTF, what is this? Amateur night? Aren't these people supposed to be engineers?

[Smoother]

2 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

I'm utterly fascinated by Gotway as a company. How they combine brilliance with pure distilled fecal matter...

Like in this case.

On their hands they have a stunningly brilliant concept, refined to 10" of pure joy. Everybody who's tried it like to recite poetry about its magnificence. Then it turns out some high school level moron that can't count to eleven with shoes on have decided to join the battery packs with the equivalent of candy tin foil... It makes you wonder if they actually WANT to survive long term as a company? Gotway can't afford many more flaps like this. Already there are quite a few sellers that won't carry their wheels because all the reclamations and service requirements eats into the margins violently.

GOTWAY, it is so simple: When you design a new wheel, let a certified experienced electric engineer go through the design and make sure it can safely take the strain we put on it. It will cost you a few thousand dollars, which you will reclaim within the first months in spare parts you don't have to send out, and returns you will avoid. Your sales will also go up, slowly at first as people won't really believe you've cleaned up your act, but faster and faster as people realise they can now safely get the fastest and most exhilarating products without expecting failure.

I respect @Marty Backe for his love of Gotway wheels, and I sure as hell would like to have a working MTen3, Tesla or Monster, for the fun and brilliance of the concepts. But WTF, what is this? Amateur night? Aren't these people supposed to be engineers?

I want one of @Scatcats approved Teslas. Until then Its KrackSong for me.

Seriously, your business model makes astonishingly good sense.  I can't reconcile HotWays cavalier attitude to design AND construction, with Chin'a history of practically inventing everything, before 1800.  Gun powder, porcelain, Mass production, Silk, tea (harder than you'd think) etc, etc.  What happened to them?  How can an entire organization be so short sighted? 

[Scatcat]

24 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I want one of @Scatcats approved Teslas. Until then Its KrackSong for me.

Seriously, your business model makes astonishingly good sense.  I can't reconcile HotWays cavalier attitude to design AND construction, with Chin'a history of practically inventing everything, before 1800.  Gun powder, porcelain, Mass production, Silk, tea (harder than you'd think) etc, etc.  What happened to them?  How can an entire organization be so short sighted? 

Because the mentality it "get it ready, get it out the door, sell, sell, sell". In itself that is not a bad thing, but as soon as you start taking short cuts to achieve it, you're in for trouble.