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Gotway Tesla vs KS16S?


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1 hour ago, Zenko said:

And i said that with my GW, wow. Well it was the only wheel i could get at that time :'(
Plz don't bash !

I won't bash. In many ways I agree with you, but I'm not so harsh on the Tesla or other wheels that Gotway is shipping right now. I do try and always tell people what they are getting into with Gotway, and if they are very risk adverse, to buy KingSong for their higher quality.

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On 11/13/2017 at 5:00 PM, dmethvin said:

A typical melting-link fuse rated 100A will tolerate probably 200A for 0.25 second and by then you've fried something. I think this problem would need to be solved in firmware. Detect that the wheel isn't spinning but there's a lot of current being applied, and shut off after half a second or so?

i think Kingsong has this? i have once by mistake wedged my KS16B, I Left it leaning against a wooden wall, and i asume when it tried to correct it self straight it wedged against a sharp edge, i found it with the "4 red lights syndrome," and then when i was picking it up i noticed it was stuck and after releasing it it returned to normal, it was probably in the red light stage for 1-2 minutes. and this i can replicate by applying counteractive force to the wheel (holding it by the handle, pushing it forward but blocking the path).

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2 hours ago, RobValley said:

i think Kingsong has this? i have once by mistake wedged my KS16B, I Left it leaning against a wooden wall, and i asume when it tried to correct it self straight it wedged against a sharp edge, i found it with the "4 red lights syndrome," and then when i was picking it up i noticed it was stuck and after releasing it it returned to normal, it was probably in the red light stage for 1-2 minutes. and this i can replicate by applying counteractive force to the wheel (holding it by the handle, pushing it forward but blocking the path).

Interesting, it's certainly possible. My KS14C has a 40A fuse but it's the typical melty type, I've never blown it tho. I'd be happy if they've taken this failure mode into account but forgive me if I don't experiment to find out. :whistling:

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34 minutes ago, dmethvin said:

Interesting, it's certainly possible. My KS14C has a 40A fuse but it's the typical melty type, I've never blown it tho. I'd be happy if they've taken this failure mode into account but forgive me if I don't experiment to find out. :whistling:

Mine blew when a car hit me on the crossroads, not really sure what happened on contact, but i was coming to a pedestrian crossover section and noticed the driver was only looking to the left for other cars (he was turning right and i was coming from the right from his perspective) i was almost able to brake in time, i must have been moving something like ½ meter the last second, almost standstill, but the car's left front side came onto me, i don't really know what happened to the wheel, as i made a small pirouette and landing on my butt.

The next minutes were a lot of "sorry, sorry, all you alright, and wtf just happened" moments, but i ended up giving the driver a moral ticket, since i was not hurt, and i was still living under the impression the wheel was ok, but later i found out the fuse had blown, i'm guessing a "wedging" situation happened with the car in this case.

So the difference from the wall situation is probably time, against the wall the amps would have slowly built up, slow enough that the firmware is able to to implement countermeasures, and thus, protect the board.

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6 hours ago, Zenko said:

I hope you don't die buddy !

As much as I like @Marty Backe intervention, I must say that GW has a huge record for cut-off... Dude you have even been caught on camera, remember the oscillation cut-out ? Well, I saw that.

Even today, Tesla get some cut-out videos, from unknown reasons, design failures, and you can't say yet this wheel is reliable. No one is dead yet from EUC, but we're getting in the speed when it's getting easier to die from a simple fall. I've seen a case of huge hospitalization because of a fall.

You might not worry to much about design failures for previous GW models, but still have to worry about quality failure, that's why every cautious GW rider has to open it up and check if everything is alright.

Now with Tesla, you need to worry about quality failures AND design failures, since this new model gets to new land (big W motor, motherboard confinement with vent...).

Be a cautious DIY like @Marty Backe and you will probably not have troubles doing the right checks, but if you're not into getting you hands dirty, i would highly advise to go for a KS brand for now.

I respect Tesla buyers as they stay aware of this, I even own a GW ACM16, but facts for now make GW less reliable than recent KS models, that's a fact, even if pilot's behavior make it 95% of falls & accidents. I just don't want to be in the 5% lot.

Good ride !

I think I came across as pretty risk averse in my first post with the "I don't want to die", but really #1 priority is to not live like I'm dead (e.g. being overly risk averse..) and then #2 is stay living if possible. Weighing up everything I've read and watched and all the detailed insights provided by this awesome community I was pretty convinced to give the Tesla a shot. 

Certainly noted your point though, in which case I will definitely carefully open it up to make sure everything is good, follow closely for any other Tesla owner posts/videos, and be cautious riding it for the first few weeks. 

When I received my Ninebot I managed to break it on the first day, leading me to open it up several times to attempt fixing it (which eventually I did). Lesson #1 for me was you shouldn't really own an electric unicycle if you're afraid to get your hands dirty! (Fortunately I'm not :) )

 

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On 12.11.2017 at 3:23 PM, Chriull said:

Would be interesting if modern KS (or other brands) survive this stuck state - I felt the urge to try it with my KS16S but resisted - one does not have to know everything

When I got my KS16S, I did some experiments pushing the wheel forward against a wall (standing on the wheel, hands on the wall). No problems. Some unusual noise from the motor, similar to grinding, which was probably a result of the over-current protection cutting power.

I don't even understand why a motor driver would blow the driver FETs when the motor is stuck for some reason. Normal power MOSFET driver chips always have over-current protection built-in. I may give an example of a driver which would be suitable for use in an EUC: Up to 8A gate current, allowing for typical motor current up to 450A.

https://gate-driver.power.com/sites/default/files/product-docs/scale-idriver_family_datasheet.pdf

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18 hours ago, xebeche said:

Ouch! What the heck even happened there? Was it cut out or gyro went nuts after the wheel hit that bump? Look at the pedals after he hit the bump, but the wheel seems to have kept running? Nasty, nasty fall :( 

No analysis done yet, but from what we've seen,

  • it's not over charge cut-off, the wheel would have bip out and warn the guy,
  • the "bump" seems none existent... We already know Tesla can overcome much bigger impact than that.
  • It looks like a cut-off, probably from a failure, something burnt or the choc ripped of something.

Only data I know is that they "change" the "left shell" of the wheel to fix it, I don't really get the fix, but that's what I heard for now.

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18 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I won't bash. In many ways I agree with you, but I'm not so harsh on the Tesla or other wheels that Gotway is shipping right now. I do try and always tell people what they are getting into with Gotway, and if they are very risk adverse, to buy KingSong for their higher quality.

If number one GotWay fan is still not dead yet, it can't be that bad :D

And I'm well aware they improved many things with the Tesla, not only driving sensation and performance, but intern architecture & components. Overall that wheel is clearly an outstanding progress as time will confirm the durability of the model.

I just wish a fix in their quality process because that's something they don't really care ATM, and block me from buying GW now.

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About the Tesla face plant.  Some thoughts:

 a. I really feel for the guy.  I hope he recovers fast.

2. That's what happens when something unexpected happens at speed one knarly face plant.

iii. That's why one should wear protection.

d. wrist guards rule.

I've face planted at a lower speed than that and I couldn't keep my chin from hitting the ground, such was the momentum.  I have heard all the arguments for the higher speed of the Tesla, but having smacked my face at less than 30kph, I have no desire to smack it into the ground at 40.  I know you can throttle it back, but I'd end up trying, and soon after, flying.

One last thing.  When you move that fast, you're more likely to collide with a pedestrian, dog, child, car, bike, that had no idea you were there, until you were.  And we all know how erratic people's movements are.  Also, at those speeds you have to evaluate a lot more road surface, and avoidance situations in the same amount of time with considerably more braking distance, and less response time. It's a recipe for disaster QED that video. (ok that was two things)

  33kph is enough for me thanks. Although I'm sure i'll get Tesla envy some time.:angry:

 

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12 hours ago, Smoother said:

About the Tesla face plant.  Some thoughts:

 a. I really feel for the guy.  I hope he recovers fast.

2. That's what happens when something unexpected happens at speed one knarly face plant.

iii. That's why one should wear protection.

d. wrist guards rule.

I've face planted at a lower speed than that and I couldn't keep my chin from hitting the ground, such was the momentum.  I have heard all the arguments for the higher speed of the Tesla, but having smacked my face at less than 30kph, I have no desire to smack it into the ground at 40.  I know you can throttle it back, but I'd end up trying, and soon after, flying.

One last thing.  When you move that fast, you're more likely to collide with a pedestrian, dog, child, car, bike, that had no idea you were there, until you were.  And we all know how erratic people's movements are.  Also, at those speeds you have to evaluate a lot more road surface, and avoidance situations in the same amount of time with considerably more braking distance, and less response time. It's a recipe for disaster QED that video. (ok that was two things)

  33kph is enough for me thanks. Although I'm sure i'll get Tesla envy some time.:angry:

 

While your thoughts are definitely right, the point is not really here.

Fact is : at that speed, with that device, fall should not occur. He didn't bump anything monstrous, road seems flat to me, i daily take bumps way edgy than that with my old ACM.

Today again, failures reported on Tesla @Stanor ; excessive vibration on Tesla ; 1 owner claiming he has 1 motor screw missing... @Marty Backe has his lot of failures too on it. EDIT : i missread, my bad, nothing to see with you Marty :P

That is not something i want to hear about a new model. I want rare and minor mistakes reported, not this. :(

 

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3 minutes ago, Zenko said:

While your thoughts are definitely right, the point is not really here.

Fact is : at that speed, with that device, fall should not occur. He didn't bump anything monstrous, road seems flat to me, i daily take bumps way edgy than that with my old ACM.

Today again, failures reported on Tesla @Stanor ; excessive vibration on Tesla ; 1 owner claiming he has 1 motor screw missing... @Marty Backe has his lot of failures too on it.

That is not something i want to hear about a new model. I want rare and minor mistakes reported, not this. :(

 

Just to clarify, the original Taiwanese guy who posted on Facebook did some digging and came up with 42 km/h as the speed at the time of the crash. Pretty fast, even for a seemingly small bump on the road surface. That would be sufficient to give a balanced rider a good jolt. For an off-balanced rider (like the crash victim), I think its enough to throw him off entirely. However, the weighted cutoff speed of the Tesla being be around 55-57 km/h, there should still be sufficient power to help a balanced wheel+rider crest that small bump. Or maybe not? I really don't know.

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42 minutes ago, Zenko said:

While your thoughts are definitely right, the point is not really here.

Fact is : at that speed, with that device, fall should not occur.

NO you're missing the point.  Things do happen AT ANY SPEED.  Who cares if "fall should not occur" .  Fall did occur.  End of story. And whether you were expecting them or not, whether its your fault or not, the faster you go the harder you fall.

Your "fact", is no fact at all, or he wouldn't have fallen.  Hey presto: false fact.

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1 hour ago, Zenko said:

Today again, failures reported on Tesla @Stanor ; excessive vibration on Tesla ; 1 owner claiming he has 1 motor screw missing... @Marty Backe has his lot of failures too on it.

That is not something i want to hear about a new model. I want rare and minor mistakes reported, not this. :(

I dont know of what Vibration he is talking...but my Tesla is vibrating a bit when Standing still, also. And btw the same as my KS18S does vibrate on standstill. So i find that pretty normal....

What is not ok, is a Motor screw missing, thats a bad joke. Perhaps some other screws are loose and that causes the Vibration here?

What failures did Marty had on his Tesla??? Do i miss something?

 

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1 hour ago, Meng Yang said:

Just to clarify, the original Taiwanese guy who posted on Facebook did some digging and came up with 42 km/h as the speed at the time of the crash. Pretty fast, even for a seemingly small bump on the road surface. That would be sufficient to give a balanced rider a good jolt. For an off-balanced rider (like the crash victim), I think its enough to throw him off entirely. However, the weighted cutoff speed of the Tesla being be around 55-57 km/h, there should still be sufficient power to help a balanced wheel+rider crest that small bump. Or maybe not? I really don't know.

Didn't check this, well 42km/h is indeed a bit too fast ! I was thinking he was rather around 30/35km/h. If it is really 42km/h, he must have hurt himsefl quitebad. Fall didn't seem that hard as i already saw some 44km/h cut-out.

@KingSong69 & @Smoother :

cut-out wheel back and forth. Yeah, yeah that's minor...

58 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I dont know of what Vibration he is talking...but my Tesla is vibrating a bit when Standing still, also. And btw the same as my KS18S does vibrate on standstill. So i find that pretty normal....

What is not ok, is a Motor screw missing, thats a bad joke. Perhaps some other screws are loose and that causes the Vibration here?

I don't know the details yet, probably 2 different issues. But vibration report is probably not a "normal" vibration ^^.

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1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

I still dont get it.....Sorry!

Which cut-out? i only read positive things from @Marty Backe about his Tesla?

It was about the leaning thing, but when i red it back, it's an improvement concerning the security cut-off when wheel goes off. I thought at first it was an other issue, but it's a correction from the previous models. My bad ! I'm gonna edit it.

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2 hours ago, Smoother said:

NO you're missing the point.  Things do happen AT ANY SPEED.  Who cares if "fall should not occur" .  Fall did occur.  End of story. And whether you were expecting them or not, whether its your fault or not, the faster you go the harder you fall.

Your "fact", is no fact at all, or he wouldn't have fallen.  Hey presto: false fact.

There is ALWAYS a reason behind your fall, why end the story so soon when it's getting interesting ? Again, I can't disagree with your thoughts. I just say they are not fully focus on the main meal :

I do everything to prevent myself from the danger of the fall. Best way to do it, is reducing the count to 0. Because even with the best protections I can get, you said it : "things do happen AT ANY SPEED, and the faster you go, the harder you fall." I take the risk of my mistakes, of my speed, I manage this part of the risk with my Individual protection and individual skills (observation, vigilance, fatigue, attention, adapted speed to the environment, etc etc etc.), no problem sir, that's my responsibility. But what about technical failure, that could kill me when i did no mistake ? That's what I analyze. Because I see a potential increase of my % of fall and I can't really do shit about it, I don't want this. That's my way of preventing fall occurrence, my lessons learn (since they don't take it). I see people just praying that the wheel will work and will not fail. That is not a good way of managing risk, and I'm upset of seeing this when you should not be worried about this kind of failure.

My point is GW isn't getting the lessons learnt already, technical failures should not be managed by the client, but by the designer. That is a fact, and that is what is wrong today. We see other brands with tanky models, near 0 technical failures accident. There's no technical nor technological limit, it is also a fact.

I laugh seeing some KingSong owners posting the video saying "did you guys already had something like this ?" That is a risk they don't even are aware of, when all decent GW owners remind it at all time.

Damn, the best product is a product that prevent you from fall, even when technical failures occur, even when human errors occur. Redundancy, warnings, guiding assistance, military resistant product, automatic diagnosis & feedback, shock absorber. There is so much room for improvement that already exist. Yeah risk will never be 0, but i wish it to be 0.000001%, not somewhere between 1% - 10%.

Your wrist guards recommendation, fast recovery ability wishes, and speed physics analysis in a users shared environment, I already know that. Security should not be only managed by the consumer. And actions that can be done go way beyond the simple protection gear wearing.

With that in mind, a simple choice of brand product can have much more impact benefiting your security and reducing risks than appropriate gear protection & environmental analysis while riding. That's also my point.

 

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1 hour ago, Zenko said:

There is ALWAYS a reason behind <snip>

 Very well said. I basically echo your comments here in The Video Thread

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 11:58 AM, WARPed1701D said:

It certainly did seem to continue driving forward for a short distance, almost with the front casing on the ground. Then it seemed to either shutdown due to a detected error state or in an effort to maintain that forward lean it had to accelerate harshly either to max speed and cutout or until it caught up with the ejected rider, ran him over, and tumbled causing shutdown. Either way this crash sucks and had me highly reflective.

If this is the result of bad firmware processing again it is very bad news for Gotway's rep as the Tesla needs to be their shining star to prove they can build a safe wheel to the rest of us who are not prepared to drink the Gotway Koolaid.

If it is hardware failure (I heard the wheel was ridable so unlikely) then again this is a big QC setback for Gotway especially given some of the disappointing assembly discoveries this own forums members have made when looking in their own new wheels.

If neither of the above caused the crash then it is result of the guy being allowed to operate the wheel out of its safe operation envelope because the bump was nothing, the guy is a featherweight rider and it was not cold (people in shorts).

If the battery were so low as to allow this to happen then Gotway (in this instance but my comment is to all manufactures) must introduce stringent non-overridable battery based speed limiting that actually works. Maybe Kingsong was on to something with the heavy handed battery induced speed limiting on their old firmware. If the guy were riding so fast that the motor had insufficient torque to drag his skinny arse over that very minor surface imperfection then again max speed must be limited by non-overridable tiltback while there is still plenty of power in reserve.These limits needs to be set considering realistic rider weights and imperfect riding conditions.

These devices are not the 12mph toys they were 3 or 4 years ago. They go insanely fast for a one wheeled device. It is just a matter of time before someone dies because of crap QC, crap components, or insufficient limiting of abilities. Manufacturers need a change of mindset and to step up and do what is needed to reduce failure rates and increase safety margins. If that means a safe 50kph wheel needs a 4kW motor and 8, 10, even 12 parallel battery packs, weighs 100lb and is priced at $4k then so be it.

I know there are those who will shout that a speed limit impinges on their freedoms but come on, this is downright dangerous now. Accept some limits now or massive overregulation later after some poor bastard has died and a lawmaker pays attention.

<soapbox goes away>

 

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Trying to work with GW on improving reliability on two technical fronts: up-rated IRFP4468 MOSFETs & the use of 60-80A fuses. 

The absence of fuses in their Wheels, as Marty has recently encountered with his MTen3, is not satisfactory. When the Wheel is in a jam, without any current throttling programmed onto the firmware, the battery will throw everything it has at it, with the inevitable outcome of either, 1) destroying the MOSFETs, 2) ruining the battery pack, or both, it's completely unnecessary. With a 20S6P pack, that momentary peak burst of power could well exceed 10KW, way beyond the survivability threshold.

For the next order requirements, I've insisted that a fuse be added. Trouble is that I'm getting some push-back, GW Engineer's aren't convinced; apparently the Korean Dealer had GW do a limited run with an embedded board fuse & they encountered some cases of it blowing under 'normal operation'. From the picture, this looks to be a 48A (?), probably it needs to be up-rated to a 60A or 80A fuse, there's no good technical reason why the correct rating can't be fitted, with the desired function of sacrificing the fuse rather than having something more catastrophic happen.

Remember the bad firmware GW put out in June? The purpose of that change was supposed to better manage the Current, with the intention of lowering the incidence rate of board failures. As sophisticated as the current roster of Wheels are today, taking the longer term view, the industry needs some fresh-blood competition, probably Engineered Outside of China to create a Wheel that is built with fewer compromises.

uc?export=view&id=1Y7jiSsknCgHjW_VbSCBGP

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23 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Trying to work with GW on improving reliability on two technical fronts: up-rated IRFP4468 MOSFETs & the use of 60-80A fuses. 

The absence of fuses in their Wheels, as Marty has recently encountered with his MTen3, is not satisfactory. When the Wheel is in a jam, without any current throttling programmed onto the firmware, the battery will throw everything it has at it, with the inevitable outcome of either, 1) destroying the MOSFETs, 2) ruining the battery pack, or both, it's completely unnecessary. With a 20S6P pack, that momentary peak burst of power could well exceed 10KW, way beyond the survivability threshold.

For the next order requirements, I've insisted that a fuse be added. Trouble is that I'm getting some push-back, GW Engineer's aren't convinced; apparently the Korean Dealer had GW do a limited run with an embedded board fuse & they encountered some cases of it blowing under 'normal operation'. From the picture, this looks to be a 48A (?), probably it needs to be up-rated to a 60A or 80A fuse, there's no good technical reason why the correct rating can't be fitted, with the desired function of sacrificing the fuse rather than having a more catastrophic happen.

Remember the bad firmware GW put out in June? The purpose of that change was supposed to better manage the Current, with the intention of lowering the incidence rate of board failures. As sophisticated as the current roster of Wheels are today, taking the longer term view, the industry needs some fresh-blood competition, probably Engineered Outside of China to create a Wheel that is built with fewer compromises.

uc?export=view&id=1Y7jiSsknCgHjW_VbSCBGP

@Jason McNeil, is there anyway that a GFCI type circuit could be incorporated into an EUC so that it just be reset by pressing a reset button on the outside of an EUC instead of having to get inside of an EUC to replace a fuse?
(Just a thought.)

 

 

Allen

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49 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

probably Engineered Outside of China

Yep. Or "engineered" at all instead of legoing parts from some sketchy electronics market together.

The mten3 battery failure shows they simply don't have any conceptual overview design of the machine, just pre-made parts (like a battery with an unsuitably thin cell connection) they hope should work. No systematic and complete (in some way) concept and plans be seen.

While there haven't been any notable KS failures with their new "S"-electronics wheels, I'm getting the impression they're doing the same thing, just on a higher level. Stronger mosfets, thicker cables isn't a proper design. They shouldn't have to stress test every single wheel in their test racks, this is supposed to be done by proper design and random sample testing. Ridiculous. I don't believe a proper design is more expensive than all those racks and worker time and space and whatnot, so it's probably an attitude thing.

Thank you for your "won't order unless you..." efforts, probably force like this is the only thing that works with the mentality. It's still just only fixing bugs and possible weak points, though. But that's not your fault.:efee47c9c8: Maybe in the future, "won't order unless you have a design with guaranteeable..." will be possible.

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24 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

From the picture, this looks to be a 48A (?), probably it needs to be up-rated to a 60A or 80A fuse

In the automotive form factor it's unlikely to be 48A, most likely it's 40A because that's a common size. The color also matches pretty well with the auto fuse color codes manufacturers tend to use, see this sale for example.

If these are good quality fuses there is actually some tolerance for overload, a 40A fuse can take a 60A load for some sub-second amount of time. Here is the data sheet for Littelfuse (The Maxi 32V series which are physically similar) and you can see even their 20A fuse might take 80A for almost a second! It probably can't take another surge like that until it re-cools though, and these are worst-case so it's possible for some fuses to blow earlier. In most fuse uses you are worried about a fuse taking too long to blow and damaging the fused equipment. Here we're worried about it blowing too soon and damaging our bodies!

KingSong is probably not getting fuses that have been well tested or ones that even have data sheets. Also, they're almost certain to be running the fuses out of spec since automotive fuses are rated for 32 volts max and a higher voltage could cause arcing. But here again we're not so worried about that case since we don't want the fuse to blow and the arc is going to extinguish when you fall off the EUC anyway. It does look like they make higher amperage ratings in this form factor though, so it might be worth trying a 60A or 80A to see how it does. I'd also be interested in whether the 80A fuse would continue to arc on an 80V EUC in the case where there was a dead short, I suspect not.

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Fuses are nice, but this could be done in software with much more precision (aka X Ampere for Y seconds is ok) and no compromises. I only see fuses as another cut-out-critical part that can fail in some unexpected way (see what Gotway said, I actually agree with what they said their experience produced) and can too easily blow when it should not or not blow when it should.

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1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

is that I'm getting some push-back, GW Engineer's aren't convinced; apparently the Korean Dealer had GW do a limited run with an embedded board fuse & they encountered some cases of it blowing under 'normal operation'. From the picture, this looks to be a 48A (?), probably it needs to be up-rated to a 60A or 80A fuse, there's no good technical reason why the correct rating can't be fitted, with the desired function of sacrificing the fuse rather than having something more catastrophic happ

Thats a red/rose 40amp fuse...

I doubt that Gotway „knows“ what they are doing when implementing that...When i see that on some of there battery packs it goes that far, that they burn the battery connections(seen not only on martys mten!)

Perhaps they even dont know exactly what there boards are drawing when under full load?

Other than that: Good job trying to make more progress! I guess the sellers are the only ones they even try to listening!

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