Gotway oscillation issue on V8?

[mezzanine]

Was going over a set of train tracks embedded in the roadway when my V8 started bucking me like a mechanical bull for a few seconds after hitting the bump.  Not sure exactly how fast I was going, but it's only luck that I happened to stay on the wheel and was able to ride it out.  It's concerning because I don't think the jarring effect of the train tracks was any more severe than other bumps I've crossed, making it difficult to predict when it could happen again.  Battery was over 80%. 

I increased my tire pressure yesterday and think maybe the increased force of sudden jolts to the gyroscope may be responsible.  

 

 

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Are there any rider pedal firmness settings on the V8?  I wonder if maybe you have it on a "soft" mode?  I've actually never tried any setting over 3 on my Ninebot One E+ as I like the solid feeling.  I used to use zero, but after someone said 3 was pretty good I've been using that since.  I notice only a very small difference, but the pedals do seem a little more tilted sometimes.  It never bucks or oscillates at any time even over really rough bumps at speed so I don't know what's up with the V8.  Maybe it's just the way the software handles the balance routine when the gyroscope experiences a severe jarring movement?  Notice when this dude leaps down the stairs you can see the bronco buck oscillation....

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Are there any rider pedal firmness settings on the V8?  I wonder if maybe you have it on a "soft" mode?  I've actually never tried any setting over 3 on my Ninebot One E+ as I like the solid feeling.  I used to use zero, but after someone said 3 was pretty good I've been using that since.  I notice only a very small difference, but the pedals do seem a little more tilted sometimes.  It never bucks or oscillates at any time even over really rough bumps at speed so I don't know what's up with the V8.  Maybe it's just the way the software handles the balance routine when the gyroscope experiences a severe jarring movement?  Notice when this dude leaps down the stairs you can see the bronco buck oscillation....

 

I think I was most impressed with his beard. At first I thought maybe it was a gag beard, but nope, it's the real deal 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

He reminds me of "The Beard Guy" from Walk off the Earth.  He does have some pretty impressive riding skills plus he's got an affiliate link to Jason's Ewheels website I noticed.  You should have some sort of click through link affiliate for Gotway wheels to Jason's site.  Maybe you could get like a discount off your next wheel or something.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

He reminds me of "The Beard Guy" from Walk off the Earth.  He does have some pretty impressive riding skills plus he's got an affiliate link to Jason's Ewheels website I noticed.  You should have some sort of click through link affiliate for Gotway wheels to Jason's site.  Maybe you could get like a discount off your next wheel or something.

 

@Jason McNeil has been very nice to me and helpful in many ways. Besides being an all-around nice guy, he's given me MSuper pedals for my Monster, a replacement ACM control board for the one that Speedyfeet was having difficulty getting to me, and a nice discount on my latest MSuper. So I send business his way whenever I can, and would do so if all he did was sell me my new wheels.

I've spent a fair amount of time with Jason and can tell anyone reading this that he really cares about this community and treating people, his customers, with respect and integrity.

[WaveCut]

To confirm the issue I would say that it was noticed dozens of times by CIS riders and was locally titled "pendulum effect". There was a lot of speculations on it, even jokes and denial, but problem exists. Theoretically concluded reason is low power battery (2P - 20A) accomplished by powerful motor and "hard mode" control algorithms, which leads reaction lag due to lack of power, then overcompensation kicks-in, and repeat. It's typical "feedback" resonance. May be fixed by algorithm tuning, but there's a variables like rider's weight, etc...
Users with 3P modded battery (like mine) never caught this issue.

Just don't push your V8 too much!

Edited October 4, 2017 by WaveCut

[mezzanine]

 

5 minutes ago, WaveCut said:

To confirm the issue I would say that it was noticed dozens of times by CIS riders and was locally titled "pendulum effect". There was a lot of speculations on it, even jokes and denial, but problem exists. Theoretically concluded reason is low power battery (2P - 20A) accomplished by powerful motor and "hard mode" control algorithms, which leads reaction lag due to lack of power, then overcompensation kicks-in, and repeat. It's typical "feedback" resonance. May be fixed by algorithm tuning, but there's a variables like rider's weight, etc...
Users with 3P modded battery (like mine) never caught this issue.

Just don't push your V8 too much!

 

Thanks for posting this info!  I have been able to re-create the "pendulum effect" a couple of times since my original comments, but not nearly as severe. 

I am interested in upgrading my battery in the future and this gives me another reason. 

[WaveCut]

To be sure - check that pedal screws are tight.

Edited October 4, 2017 by WaveCut

[mezzanine]

Ugh.  Just had my first significant crash thanks to this issue.  I figure I was probably going around 12mph and I was transitioning from a sidewalk to a road and I guess the drop must have been enough to send the gyro into "bucking bronco" mode.  I knew I wasn't going to be able to ride this one out. 

Flying off I went, landing in the street with the wheel careening off to the other side and then cutting out on it's side.  I didn't sense any serious immediate injuries and was grateful for that.  The worst part is that I just wanted to lie there for a few minutes and gather myself, but I had to drag myself off the road.  Then I started to feel queasy and wanted to just lie down on the grass for a few minutes, but realized quickly I would draw too much attention by well-meaning on-lookers.  

It feels like right hip took the brunt of the falls.  It doesn't hurt too much, but I expect it will be painful for a couple days.  My ankle hurts, too.  Nothing too bad, thankfully. 

I'm not thrilled about the fact that I can't reliably anticipate what conditions will produce this effect with the wheel.  The bumps that initiated the oscillation didn't seem excessive compared to what I usually traverse.  I'm going to have to be more careful with the amount of jarring I allow the wheel to take over bumps.  There's a happy medium between tire pressure and cushioning effect that I'm still trying to find to minimize the issue. 

I didn't see that last message by @WaveCut about checking the pedal screws, but will put that on the agenda. 

 

[Marty Backe]

20 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Ugh.  Just had my first significant crash thanks to this issue.  I figure I was probably going around 12mph and I was transitioning from a sidewalk to a road and I guess the drop must have been enough to send the gyro into "bucking bronco" mode.  I knew I wasn't going to be able to ride this one out. 

Flying off I went, landing in the street with the wheel careening off to the other side and then cutting out on it's side.  I didn't sense any serious immediate injuries and was grateful for that.  The worst part is that I just wanted to lie there for a few minutes and gather myself, but I had to drag myself off the road.  Then I started to feel queasy and wanted to just lie down on the grass for a few minutes, but realized quickly I would draw too much attention by well-meaning on-lookers.  

It feels like right hip took the brunt of the falls.  It doesn't hurt too much, but I expect it will be painful for a couple days.  My ankle hurts, too.  Nothing too bad, thankfully. 

I'm not thrilled about the fact that I can't reliably anticipate what conditions will produce this effect with the wheel.  The bumps that initiated the oscillation didn't seem excessive compared to what I usually traverse.  I'm going to have to be more careful with the amount of jarring I allow the wheel to take over bumps.  There's a happy medium between tire pressure and cushioning effect that I'm still trying to find to minimize the issue. 

I didn't see that last message by @WaveCut about checking the pedal screws, but will put that on the agenda. 

 

Too bad that this V8 issue isn't fixable like the Gotway wheels. At least I could get my MSuper re-flashed with zero subsequent problems.

You're probably going to be hurting for a few days, physically and psychologically, but it'll pass eventually. 

[WARPed1701D]

I'm glad you appear to be OK but get anything that you are unsure about checked out promptly. Thankfully your impact speed was along the lines of running speed which our bodies are good at absorbing.

I'm really surprised to hear you had this again. I've 700km under my V8 now and I've ridden it many times on low battery, even down to 0% multiple times for capacity testing and charge logging. I've never felt it to be anything but rock solid under me and there are some rough roads around these parts (not potholes exactly but bowls in the road surface like a small sinkhole is under them) and we have some monster cambers on the roads and rain gullies at junctions. I also ride at near max speed almost all the time. Temperature could of course be playing a factor in power delivery which is why the 3P battery setup could alleviate the issue by spreading the load. The last few days are the first time I have ridden mine in low 60 degree weather but no issues. I'm about 165lb with all my gear and work bag. Maybe my svelte build helps reduce the possibility of a problem although I do still get overload beeps when I hit one of the aforementioned road 'bowls' at speed.

Did you hear any alerts?

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Yeeks that's not good.  Is there any ride "firmness" setting on the V8?  Re-reading what Wavecut wrote above, maybe a softer setting might help?   Have you tried contacting your dealer where you bought the wheel from?  Maybe there is a flaw in the control board?

[WARPed1701D]

1 minute ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Yeeks that's not good.  Is there any ride "firmness" setting on the V8?  Re-reading what Wavecut wrote above, maybe a softer setting might help?   Have you tried contacting your dealer where you bought the wheel from?  Maybe there is a flaw in the control board?

No firmness option on the V8.

[mezzanine]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Too bad that this V8 issue isn't fixable like the Gotway wheels. At least I could get my MSuper re-flashed with zero subsequent problems.

You're probably going to be hurting for a few days, physically and psychologically, but it'll pass eventually. 

Yeah, I had the same thought.  I flashed on your video of the MSuper crash when I knew I was about to eat it.  I'm not so shook up about it as much as I'm annoyed.  Ended up scuffing up a new expensive jacket I should've been smarter than to wear. 

I'd kinda put this problem in the back of mind and have tried to ignore it, but I'm going to put some effort into trying to understand whether it can be corrected. 

[mezzanine]

14 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

I'm glad you appear to be OK but get anything that you are unsure about checked out promptly. Thankfully your impact speed was along the lines of running speed which our bodies are good at absorbing.

I'm really surprised to hear you had this again. I've 700km under my V8 now and I've ridden it many times on low battery, even down to 0% multiple times for capacity testing and charge logging. I've never felt it to be anything but rock solid under me and there are some rough roads around these parts (not potholes exactly but bowls in the road surface like a small sinkhole is under them) and we have some monster cambers on the roads and rain gullies at junctions. I also ride at near max speed almost all the time. Temperature could of course be playing a factor in power delivery which is why the 3P battery setup could alleviate the issue by spreading the load. The last few days are the first time I have ridden mine in low 60 degree weather but no issues. I'm about 165lb with all my gear and work bag. Maybe my svelte build helps reduce the possibility of a problem although I do still get overload beeps when I hit one of the aforementioned road 'bowls' at speed.

Did you hear any alerts?

Always grateful for your insight as another V8 rider, warped.  My fall was similar to Marty's that he caught on video when the Gotway firmware issue was happening.  I had actually had the oscillation occur again after mentioning it the first time, but it was minor in comparison and rare.  A big key seems to be tire pressure because I'd been running really low for most of the last few weeks and then a week ago I increased the pressure and the shock transmission of bumps is increased, which triggers the gyro issue.  Although they seem unrelated, it's possible that the issue I posted about where the V8 wouldn't start immediately upon pressing the power button could be connected. 

I didn't hear any alerts and the fact I haven't come across similar reports makes me wonder if it's more unique to my wheel than I assumed.  I had figured it must be common to all V8s initially.  I know @WaveCut said that there are similar reports in Russia.  I know the V8 is way more popular on the french forum and I'll do some research there. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by mezzanine

[WARPed1701D]

Well for what it is worth I run at about 45 psi. I have run up to 50 and down to 40 but not really any further than that in either direction. For the last 200km I have had Slime in the tire. I kind of overdid it too with almost 4oz in there accidently. I notice that this can cause the wheel to be feel unbalanced initially if picked up and allowed to spin but never noticed it causing any issue when riding.

I'm sorry you are having such problems and don't really have any advice considering I'm lucky to have had zero issues with my wheel and until now not really heard of any such oscillation issues with the V8. I don't know if you are partial charging right now but I would consider doing a few weeks of charging fully before any rides. Fully charged batteries will be better able to deliver extremes of power when needed especially in cooler weather. See if you notice any improvements when you do that. Other than that my only suggestion would be that considering you have had some possible control board problems in the past you try to get a replacement board via the old owners original seller or by stumping up the cash yourself and speaking to eWheels who have a supply.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

Ugh.  Just had my first significant crash thanks to this issue. 

Oh dear, and Inmotion wheels were supposed to be "the good ones". Funny how there's this issue, and it's unexplained, with such an "old" (= lots of people have ridden it) wheel. The low battery + high stress theory is a good one though.

Good you're more or less ok (but go to a doctor if you have the slightest doubt whether you're really unhurt!), but this really should not have happened (well, that applies to pretty much any EUC issue). Hoping you'll find a solution so you don't lose trust in the wheel, that could otherwise ruin riding, which sucks. I'd also think about replacing the board, it has shown too many issues for my liking (this two times and the power button).

47 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Ended up scuffing up a new expensive jacket I should've been smarter than to wear. 

Some part of EUCing is showing off, so that's just how it is. The jacket wasn't the problem, the crash was

Edited October 27, 2017 by meepmeepmayer

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

 

I'm not thrilled about the fact that I can't reliably anticipate what conditions will produce this effect with the wheel. 

 

You can't think of a single condition that replicates this effect? Such as...riding a wheel in the first place...?

I'm irritated because riding a wheel causes crashes in the first place, and so when you state you're not thrilled, what you really mean is, you're thrilled because the wheel can dump you for any, all, or no reason.

The thrill of a wheel comes from the possibility of crashing; you ride these bad boys because they crash. That's the thrill.

Crotchety comments aside, you need to go back out and try to replicate your accident. Not that you need to crash; I'd wager you could get into the situation again but since you're prepared you can probably pull a save out of your tailspin. Probably. Maybe. Worth a shot of the greater good.

I wonder if anyone on this forum has not crashed.

[meepmeepmayer]

Today isn't your day, is it? Maybe sleep or something

[ir_fuel]

On 02/10/2017 at 3:18 AM, mezzanine said:

Was going over a set of train tracks embedded in the roadway when my V8 started bucking me like a mechanical bull for a few seconds after hitting the bump. 

Last time I went over a set of train tracks with my V8 it ended with a cutout, leading to a dislocated pinkie, ribs that hurt and a good bang on my shoulder.

[mezzanine]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

You can't think of a single condition that replicates this effect? Such as...riding a wheel in the first place...?

I'm irritated because riding a wheel causes crashes in the first place, and so when you state you're not thrilled, what you really mean is, you're thrilled because the wheel can dump you for any, all, or no reason.

The thrill of a wheel comes from the possibility of crashing; you ride these bad boys because they crash. That's the thrill.

Crotchety comments aside, you need to go back out and try to replicate your accident. Not that you need to crash; I'd wager you could get into the situation again but since you're prepared you can probably pull a save out of your tailspin. Probably. Maybe. Worth a shot of the greater good.

I wonder if anyone on this forum has not crashed.

 

Riding a wheel causes crashes in the first place?  No, nothing inherent to wheels necessitates they crash.  I think you'd be surprised to learn that many folks ride wheels for reasons other than the thrill of possibly crashing.   

 

 

 

[RenaissanceMan]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

wonder if anyone on this forum has not crashed.

Me  (after 1400 real km on KS16B and 1100 km on KS16S - knock on wood!)

[mezzanine]

1 minute ago, RenaissanceMan said:

Me  (after 1400 real km on KS16B and 1100 km on KS16S - knock on wood!)

You mean wheels don't necessarily crash and you don't ride for the thrill of possibly crashing?

[CaptainKBLS]

I rarely ride my V8 since I got my ACM.

The last fall I had with the V8 was weaving side to side on mostly flat road but the area where I fell had lots of loose small gravels that wore off from the road and also coming to a sudden stop.

We the need the manufacture to provide more detail internal stats, states, metric, etc.  User level stats isn't good enough to find this problem.

Please let keep us posted if you learn of any new.  IMO there's too much hype and credit given to the V8.  Now that I have some experience, I would not rate it as high and deserve the same rating as other EUC.

[WARPed1701D]

Do you have android and log your rides with Wheellog? If not I suggest doing so. I log every ride so that should I ever have a fall I can try to understand why. The sample rate is several times per second and tilt and pitch figures would confirm an oscillaton event. Not sure how Darknessbot is at logging data on IOS.