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Next upgrade option after the Inmotion V8


Clifmeister

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1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

Did you read that paper weight topic? That explains what might happen if you all of the sudden connect full battery packs to (nearly) empty ones.

Just Googling around, it looks like the Ebike people have done something similar...

https://www.electronicspoint.com/threads/connecting-two-battery-pack-in-parallel-with-a-mosfet.267442/

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On 9/21/2017 at 3:12 AM, Clifmeister said:

So yes,

I fell in love with EUC, I managed to ride around some KM with my Inmotion V8 learning machine. It’s a great machine and gets me everywhere I like. It’s fast and did not fail me! The only thing that concerned me was the range. After a full charge the battery turns red after about 13 km, with a constant speed of 25 km/h, and a weight of 95 kg (last is probably the biggest factor of range). That’s all good and it let me finish a fun trail, but I want to do some bigger trails and don’t have to worry about my range. I like the 16 inch, and don’t wat to step up to 18 inch (I like to keep it low profile, so not everybody starts to see it as a monster vehicle)

Do you guys have valid upgrade options? Which give me at least double the range, and the same speed 25-30 km/h. Don’t need to go faster I really like the constant speed I’m currently used to.

I keep looking at the Gotway ACM, 1300 version. Or the king song 16s versions. What do you guys think? Is it even possible with my weight/constant speed. 

So what are great upgrade routes coming from an Inmotion V8?

 

I would say the ACM is old design but a great upgrade.  The Tesla is newer and would also be a great upgrade.  The KS16S would also be a great upgrade, all 16 inch wheels.  The Rockwheel GT16 is another with long range.  Any one of them would be good.  Probably any wheel with at least 800wh would have enough range for you.

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41 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Not true. He experienced an overspeed cutout because he disabled the alarms and tilt-back and ignored the final alarm. User error which he acknowledges.

overspeed while low battery.  Yes, gotway allows their users to get hurt.  Guess there are a lot more hurt gotway riders than king song riders.  Guess most gotway riders are irresponsible adults.  

Safe guards are good.  Like engineering your cables to be thick enough.  I guess you can say that you pushing the acm up the hill and the wires melting is your fault.  Not gotways fault.  You are an adult and you accept responsibility for choosing a poorly designed wheel that allows their users to hurt themselves. 

I don't mind people picking a more dangerous wheel.  

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Hello Cliffmeister,

 

Maybe nice to have a try  a wheel that you maybe want to buy.

And spend money on a more powerfull wheel with a greater range.

I do not now which part of holland you live, but i live in Hilversum.

Have the ACM 84 volt 1600wh, did 3000 km with in in 6 months.

Can do around 70 km ( 75 kg ) on it, with speed most around 30 km or more.

I am faster than all the bikes, and the wheel NEVER let me down.

Trust the wheel for the full 200 %, and love the wheel for several reason.

I think in holland we have good conditions to ride a gotway.

No steep hills or extreme warm temerature, things the wheel can't handle.

 

But iif you want you can try the gotway before you buy.

Have the KS 18 S too, so that is possible to try also.

I'm not totataly used to the KS, but,  just did about 150 km on it.

 

There is a group app in holland with around 18 riders on it.

People with KS 16/18 (s), Gotway V3+/monster and mcm4 .

I think with nice asking they will allow there wheel to try also.

A rider with a V3+ lives near by Hilversum.

So when interested let me now:)

Because most likly there will come a day you can't control yourself anymore.

And order a wheel with more speed, and especially more range for nice long rides.

And to explore the city/towns, roads routes  that you usually don't  take  for fun with the bike:whistling:

 

 

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The gotway versus kingsong batttle is on again.

So i step in for a moment, and share my experience.

Have the acm 84v 1600 wh, did 3000 km on it.

No cut out, no face plant, no melting cables, no isseus at all.

Just 3000 km commuting and fun rides that are all fun.

Turned off the 1st en 2nd speed alarm.

Have the tilt back on and set on 45, 5 km below top speed.

And NEVER EVER IGNORED the 3rd beep for low battery.

As soon the 1st beep comes i reduce speed, as an responsible adult does.

The beep warns the rider, it's the same when you ignore a red traffic light.

The chance of getting hurt is pretty big, as driving trough track trees.

There be there for a reason,   you get hurt if you think these safety features are not  meant for you :wacko:

 

The Kingsong have different  safety features, but it's a pain in the ass with low battery that the wheel force you to drive 15 km or less the last few miles.

I like the KS, not question about it, but i'm adult enough ( i think so ) to make the safe choice and listen and react on the warning beep ;)

And not being forced to drive that slowly that walking is an option to :facepalm:

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It's good to see some spirited discussion about what wheels are "best."  I'm just glad that we have a few choices to pick from.  That helps keep a healthy competition between the brands and encourages people to try each of them out for themselves so they can choose what is best for them.  How one brand is "safer" than another is kind of funny as we're all riding on a single wheel.  How safe can that really be when you think about it?  :efef927839:

I think there's room for improvement with all the EUC makers as there's no "ideal" wheel.  Ninebot's are considered rock solid, but people have had battery packs go bad suddenly without warning and cutout on them (looking at you @noisycarlos :efee8319ab:).  While some may perceive Gotway's zeal for speed and performance as reckless endangerment, others find it thrilling to be able to push a wheel to its limits to see where it will go.  Others want their wheel to stop them before that tipping point, and while certain brands may do it better than others all the manufacturers likely want their customers to ride safely within the limits.  How they try to go about that will vary, and not everyone will find the methods suitable for them.

I think as adults we are all able to determine what wheel we want be it a KingSong, Gotway, Rockwheel, Ninebot, or other based on what risks we are willing to take and what features we are comfortable enough with.  While early throttling down of speed with low battery states is prudent, sometimes a heavy hand can be too much.  Err on the safe side for sure, but people will always want more and to be able to adjust things to suit their wishes.  Look at my Ninebot One when it tells me I have 10 km remaining, but I can only ride those 10 km at 10 kph.  :rolleyes:  I know it's for my own good and safety, but it would be nice to be able to tweak that speed just a little.  I guess it's kind of like traction control and stability control.  With some cars it really can help like on the RX8, but they still allow you to turn them off for that pure thrill of relying on your own skills and abilities to drive the car.  Do they help?  Sure they do, but sometimes it's nice to teeter on the edge of disaster just to see what the driver can really do.  With these electric unicycles there is not a whole lot of room for error, but some people want to see how far they can take a wheel without mandatory restrictions.  To each their own I say.  There's always a choice wheel that each individual can decide is best for them.

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22 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

It's good to see some spirited discussion about what wheels are "best."  I'm just glad that we have a few choices to pick from.  That helps keep a healthy competition between the brands and encourages people to try each of them out for themselves so they can choose what is best for them.  How one brand is "safer" than another is kind of funny as we're all riding on a single wheel.  How safe can that really be when you think about it?  :efef927839:

I think there's room for improvement with all the EUC makers as there's no "ideal" wheel.  Ninebot's are considered rock solid, but people have had battery packs go bad suddenly without warning and cutout on them (looking at you @noisycarlos :efee8319ab:).  While some may perceive Gotway's zeal for speed and performance as reckless endangerment, others find it thrilling to be able to push a wheel to its limits to see where it will go.  Others want their wheel to stop them before that tipping point, and while certain brands may do it better than others all the manufacturers likely want their customers to ride safely within the limits.  How they try to go about that will vary, and not everyone will find the methods suitable for them.

I think as adults we are all able to determine what wheel we want be it a KingSong, Gotway, Rockwheel, Ninebot, or other based on what risks we are willing to take and what features we are comfortable enough with.  While early throttling down of speed with low battery states is prudent, sometimes a heavy hand can be too much.  Err on the safe side for sure, but people will always want more and be able to adjust things to suit their wishes.  Look at my Ninebot One when it tells me I have 10 km remaining, but I can only ride those 10 km at 10 kph.  :rolleyes:  I know it's for my own good and safety, but it would be nice to be able to tweak that speed just a little.  I guess it's kind of like traction control and stability control.  With some cars it really can help like on the RX8, but they still allow you to turn them off for that pure thrill of relying on your own skills and abilities to drive the car.  Do they help?  Sure they do, but sometimes it's nice to teeter on the edge of disaster just to see what the driver can really do.  With these electric unicycles there is not a whole lot of room for error, but some people want to see how far they can take a wheel without mandatory restrictions.  To each their own I say.  There's always a choice wheel that everyone can decide is best for them.

What this guy said :D 

Always the diplomat @Hunka Hunka Burning Love  :cheers:

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5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Gotway treats it's users like adults and lets them establish the level of risk that they want to take.

A Gotway wheel can be configured to be extremely safe. But if you are willing to accept the risks than you can disengage the safety features.

This is my biggest complaint about KingSong. They coddle their users. If given the choice I will always prefer the freedom to make my own choices. 

One man's "Gotway treats it's users like adults" is another man's "Gotway couldn't care if you fall on your face". 

Gotway never hurt me. Not once. (Physically, just my checkbook). 

But it has hurt you Marty, enough that I will never ride another until they change their ways. Just as you can't figure out why I'm so against them, I can't figure out for the life of me why you keep getting back on one.  

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Just now, GoinPostal said:

One man's "Gotway treats it's users like adults" is another man's "Gotway couldn't care if you fall on your face". 

Gotway never hurt me. Not once. (Physically, just my checkbook). 

But it has hurt you Marty, enough that I will never ride another until they change their ways. Just as you can't figure out why I'm so against them, I can't figure out for the life of me why you keep getting back on one.  

Simple really. No other wheel offers what I want in a wheel: power, range, and choice. Tell me where to buy a competitive 10 inch wheel. Who's selling the alternative 22 inch wheel. Where's that 16 inch wheel that can take me 50 miles?

It's not like I'm happy about the state of affairs with Gotway. But I have no reasonable choices (in my opinion) to pick from and in reality none of my 7 Gotway wheels that I've owned have failed me in a hurtful way except for the MSuper V3s+, which has subsequently been fixed. If I seriously thought I was risking life and limb every time I rode them, I wouldn't. Surely you must recognize that the vast majority of Gotway owners don't have failures?

I think I just made some rational statements, but maybe you think differently.

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I split my time working as a Canadian diplomat to the UN and this forum.  :whistling:  Both keep me busy.

It is worthwhile noting that only a few reports of Gotway wires melting have been reported,  and those reports have only been from a few people riding extreme hills on their wheels or over-taxing them somehow.  We don't seem to hear a huge issue about it any more.  The MSuper firmware fiasco was a huge setback for Gotway, but they took care of customers in a relatively (for the Chinese) timely fashion by sending boards out and having dealers flash wheels before delivery.  Whether a KS18S or KS16S would have tiltback and shutdown in the same situations is difficult to say.  Maybe their built-in protections are better that way.

The Ninebot One P ended up to be a complete failure along with some One E+ firmware releases.  Older model KingSong 14 axles were notorious for breaking.  The older KS16 also had some cutouts from launch issues as well.  I don't think any of these wheels are 100% safe, but they are slowly improving.  Ford Model T's didn't have many safety features when they first came out.  Progress moves slowly but surely.   Accidents and failures along the way are inevitable, but the important thing is that we all learn from them so things improve.  

We are experiencing the first generations of these marvelous transportation devices.  There's bound to be challenges, failures, improvements, and new features coming down the line.  These are exciting times!   Each person will always have their preferred ride just like how people choose different makes and models of cars.  In the end though we all are trying to make it from A to B on a single wheel while having a lot of fun doing so.  That's something we all have in common.

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4 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I split my time working as a Canadian diplomat to the UN and this forum.  :whistling:  Both keep me busy.

It is worthwhile noting that only a few reports of Gotway wires melting have been reported,  and those reports have only been from a few people riding extreme hills on their wheels or over-taxing them somehow.  We don't seem to hear a huge issue about it any more.  The MSuper firmware fiasco was a huge setback for Gotway, but they took care of customers in a relatively (for the Chinese) timely fashion by sending boards out and having dealers flash wheels before delivery.  Whether a KS18S or KS16S would have tiltback and shutdown in the same situations is difficult to say.  Maybe their built-in protections are better that way.

The Ninebot One P ended up to be a complete failure along with some One E+ firmware releases.  Older model KingSong 14 axles were notorious for breaking.  The older KS16 also had some cutouts from launch issues as well.  I don't think any of these wheels are 100% safe, but they are slowly improving.  Ford Model T's didn't have many safety features when they first came out.  Progress moves slowly but surely.   Accidents and failures along the way are inevitable, but the important thing is that we all learn from them so things improve.  

We are experiencing the first generations of these marvelous transportation devices.  There's bound to be challenges, failures, improvements, and new features coming down the line.  These are exciting times!   Each person will always have their preferred ride just like how people choose different makes and models of cars.  In the end though we all are trying to make it from A to B on a single wheel while having a lot of fun doing so.  That's something we all have in common.

:cheers:

We should all be grateful that these aren't flying machines. Imagine the early years of flying. Many people died during the growing years. At least we don't have that to worry about.

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:blink: I definitely would not want to fly in a first or second generation made-in-China plane that they copied from someone else!  It would be interesting to look 100 years into the future (if we make it there!) to see what these electric unicycles will be like.  People watching our EUC Youtube videos would be like us viewing black and white movies of the first bicycles from the 1900's.

 

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

It's not like I'm happy about the state of affairs with Gotway. But I have no reasonable choices (in my opinion) to pick from and in reality none of my 7 Gotway wheels that I've owned have failed me in a hurtful way except for the MSuper V3s+, which has subsequently been fixed. If I seriously thought I was risking life and limb every time I rode them, I wouldn't. Surely you must recognize that the vast majority of Gotway owners don't have failures?

Doesn't the burned wire ACM cutout and faceplant with resulting defect board and motor not count as a fail? ;-)

 

And yes you are totally right! For sure 90-95% of all Gotway's dont have a failure. Nonetheless i think GW needs to be pushed for a  better Quality.

If the Tesla was from another Company i would have allready ordered one...but a first Version GW? That's to much of a gamble (for me)...so i will wait a bit longer.

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7 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Doesn't the burned wire ACM cutout and faceplant with resulting defect board and motor not count as a fail? ;-)

 

And yes you are totally right! For sure 90-95% of all Gotway's dont have a failure. Nonetheless i think GW needs to be pushed for a  better Quality.

If the Tesla was from another Company i would have allready ordered one...but a first Version GW? That's to much of a gamble (for me)...so i will wait a bit longer.

I guess, if you want to force my hand. But I might argue that under more 'normal' conditions that failure would never have occurred. But I'll give it to you ;)

I think that's wise. In a few months they will probably release Tesla V2, with another battery pack. Of course the V2 will probably have an early firmware problem :huh:  Maybe wait for V3 :confused1:

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5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I guess, if you want to force my hand. But I might argue that under more 'normal' conditions that failure would never have occurred. But I'll give it to you ;)

I think that's wise. In a few months they will probably release Tesla V2, with another battery pack. Of course the V2 will probably have an early firmware problem :huh:  Maybe wait for V3 :confused1:

Actually from what Tishawn reported and what i saw the wheel looked quite good and i am really looking out for it.

The only Thing i am sceptical of is the heatsink, that is not going to the wheel "outside" as on ACM, V3, Monster and only sitting in a black Box with 2 useless fans.

Other than that i would guess they ruled out the wire and Firmware probs....if not they can not be helped anymore.

And yes, just ONE layer of 20cells more each side(1,2 cm-half Inch each side) would make this wheel 1600wh and a definitly my MOST WANTED :rolleyes:

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8 hours ago, gotmotion2016 said:

The Kingsong have different  safety features, but it's a pain in the ass with low battery that the wheel force you to drive 15 km or less the last few miles.

I repeat, that they have changed that at least for the KS16B in the latest firmware. It starts reducing the maxspeed at 25% battery charge, from 30 km/h in a smooth curve down to 25 km/h when charge is around 3%.  I agree completely with this kind of safety measure, but I know that it is not that good for their other wheels, which are speedreduced earlier.

 

2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Actually from what Tishawn reported and what i saw the wheel looked quite good and i am really looking out for it.

The only Thing i am sceptical of is the heatsink, that is not going to the wheel "outside" as on ACM, V3, Monster and only sitting in a black Box with 2 useless fans.

Other than that i would guess they ruled out the wire and Firmware probs....if not they can not be helped anymore.

And yes, just ONE layer of 20cells more each side(1,2 cm-half Inch each side) would make this wheel 1600wh and a definitly my MOST WANTED :rolleyes:

I agree completely with that, we'll see what happens when it comes out in volume.  I'm very interested in this wheel.

 

However, this whole discussion reminds me on a discussion about climbing safety gear around 2014:

the "ATC guide" and comparable so called tuber-like safety gear, which was used for 2 to 3 decades now, were found to be totally lacking their functionality under very special circumstances, which led to deadly accidents.

Once this was recognized and broadcasted by competent specialists, it did not happen that the gear was just forbidden and no longer produced, no. But vendors and also climbers which are used to the equipment started discussing how unlikely it is that this special situations happen, tried to ridicule the whole findings, started talking about self responsibility and all this crap.

But simple fact is, hands down, that these devices are just unsafe and deadly in special situations, there is nothing to discuss.

But because of all these discussions it took years until this gear was forbidden to be used in climbing gyms and at trainings and official courses of alpine clubs.

I just want to say with that: I also have the opinion that Gotway has some way to go to produce decent, safe wheels, definitely a longer way than Kingsong. And they should know it and do something about that.

Until then I can only quote @KingSong69: If the Tesla was from another Company i would have allready ordered one...but a first Version GW? That's to much of a gamble for me.

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9 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Simple really. No other wheel offers what I want in a wheel: power, range, and choice. Tell me where to buy a competitive 10 inch wheel. Who's selling the alternative 22 inch wheel. Where's that 16 inch wheel that can take me 50 miles?

It's not like I'm happy about the state of affairs with Gotway. But I have no reasonable choices (in my opinion) to pick from and in reality none of my 7 Gotway wheels that I've owned have failed me in a hurtful way except for the MSuper V3s+, which has subsequently been fixed. If I seriously thought I was risking life and limb every time I rode them, I wouldn't. Surely you must recognize that the vast majority of Gotway owners don't have failures?

I think I just made some rational statements, but maybe you think differently.

Marty, 

I respect you greatly.  You have done a lot for the community. You and I just think differently.  I see your point about availability, but for me, safety has to be number 1. If a company can't be safe (within reason) I will never ride it no matter what great option it has. If a companies wheel drops you once, its suspect. Twice, probably enough. Three times is outrageous and definitely a never again for me. You look at the fact you've only been seriously hurt once. I look at the fact that had your head been tossed into a curb or pillar instead of a flower bed, that would have ended much differently.  

We dress for the slide not the ride.. and that begins with a consistently trustworthy wheel.  

Keep the spinnin' part down guys! Peace!

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3 hours ago, Asylsteirer said:

Until then I can only quote @KingSong69: If the Tesla was from another Company i would have allready ordered one...but a first Version GW? That's to much of a gamble for me.

The name Tesla carries a lot of liability if this new GW is a clunker. The new mten, while not a first version, Is a fantastic quality machine. If the Tesla turns out to be a liability, the actual tesla company will sue them into the stone age. My problem with the Tesla is its three cinderblock weight, not any quality concerns. Its obvious that those previous models have exposed those problems so that they can be mitigated in the future models. If the mten was not as good as it is I would tend to think that GW does not learn from their earlier models, But it is a fantastic machine and a great omen of products to come. Now if they could only solve the weight problem of the larger EUCs they would have me as a loyal customer.

Alas.

I have been dumped by a Kingsong. The battery was faulty and no safety beeps or leanback could save it or me from crashing face, well wrist and elbow first into the pavement at full speed. Some things are beyond the current safety abilities of the machines, and there will always be outliers in new tech that will surface to bite us when we least expect it. So far these anomalies are pretty well spread across the entire industry up to this point in development. The incidents seem to be just as user dependent as machine dependent for faults. Ie Since GWs are built for speed, they will get speeding faults. Kingsong is built for torque and distance more than speed, and its faults are based in this area, from blown fuses to blown BMS boards, and control boards.

It behooves us all to be vigilant since we are the test pilots of this new vehicle. Hurray for us! We are Heroes!

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8 minutes ago, GoinPostal said:

Marty, 

I respect you greatly.  You have done a lot for the community. You and I just think differently.  I see your point about availability, but for me, safety has to be number 1. If a company can't be safe (within reason) I will never ride it no matter what great option it has. If a companies wheel drops you once, its suspect. Twice, probably enough. Three times is outrageous and definitely a never again for me. You look at the fact you've only been seriously hurt once. I look at the fact that had your head been tossed into a curb or pillar instead of a flower bed, that would have ended much differently.  

We dress for the slide not the ride.. and that begins with a consistently trustworthy wheel.  

Keep the spinnin' part down guys! Peace!

Peace :cheers:

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Gotways are as safe as any other brand wheel for regular riding. The one known thing (except the oscillation issue which was an outlier - I sure hope so at least;)) is a very predictable failure that occurs only in a certain extreme stress situation (but again, predictably, this is both good and bad). And the axle shims are a weak point. That's it.

Other manufacturers (aka KS) don't seem to have less problems (broken axles, firmware crap, damaged boards, ...) or less crashes if we exclude these two big GW issues (that one time they fucked up their firmware, and the undersized motor cables), if I'm looking at user reports here.

And there are still no >>>1000 Wh wheels except the GWs and the KS18, can't argue with that.

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I'm a newish guy to euc, I have a v8, I'm getting a Tesla.  from reading everything I'm pretty sure I'm going to die on it, I just hope the smile sticks on my face at the funeral.  I ride my v8 every day I can, its been perfect wheel so far but I am constantly bouncing off the limiter, that's not safe, I want just a little more.  May I be smart and wear my gear and not slide into something harder than my helmet.  I know Gotway is not the safest, but I don't care, I want more speed... (and ring lights, because damn, leds are cool)

 

Someone remind of this stupidity when I post a pic of my broken arm, leg, etc ;) and ask me if it was worth it.

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3 minutes ago, Brian Morris said:

I'm a newish guy to euc, I have a v8, I'm getting a Tesla.  from reading everything I'm pretty sure I'm going to die on it, I just hope the smile sticks on my face at the funeral.  I ride my v8 every day I can, its been perfect wheel so far but I am constantly bouncing off the limiter, that's not safe, I want just a little more.  May I be smart and wear my gear and not slide into something harder than my helmet.  I know Gotway is not the safest, but I don't care, I want more speed... (and ring lights, because damn, leds are cool)

 

Someone remind of this stupidity when I post a pic of my broken arm, leg, etc ;) and ask me if it was worth it.

I've been riding since May 2017...  Every accident I've seen so far is with a Gotway.  Maybe it isn't the wheel.  Maybe it is the users or the ones that choose Gotway for the speed or the thrill.  Good luck!

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1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Gotways are as safe as any other brand wheel for regular riding. The one known thing (except the oscillation issue which was an outlier - I sure hope so at least;)) is a very predictable failure that occurs only in a certain extreme stress situation (but again, predictably, this is both good and bad). And the axle shims are a weak point. That's it.

Other manufacturers (aka KS) don't seem to have less problems (broken axles, firmware crap, damaged boards, ...) or less crashes if we exclude these two big GW issues (that one time they fucked up their firmware, and the undersized motor cables), if I'm looking at user reports here.

And there are still no >>>1000 Wh wheels except the GWs and the KS18, can't argue with that.

Naah, i guess it‘s also the board quality.....smaller mosfets, stupid configuration...crappy DC-converter, as Zlymex reported...

Having seen some different boards, its pretty obvious.

Thats what i really dont understand, why they dont change some of this cent articles and do it better. So it sums up:

board, wires, connectiond, solder, axles, shims...

Again: Driving GW V3 myself, and thinking of buying another GW in the very near future, so please dont call that bashing.

But it is a shame and sad, that even easy and relativly cheap changes dont come through. If GW would have KS or Inmotion quality...they would totally blow the market away...with ease!!!

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