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phatmike

Kingsong not on Ali express anymore!

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I think they're really trying to clamp down on Ali sellers so people have to pay the much higher local prices. Same as not servicing/supporting/acknowledging problems/requests from imported wheels.

@KingSong69 can tell you more.

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5 minutes ago, fourthewin said:

If you ever experience battery failure as I have. You'll appreciate having someone like @Jason McNeil to assist in a repair or warranty service. 

That's not the question. Sure you appreciate that...But has nothing to do with bad politics....

Edited by KingSong69

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Interesting. This now almost fulfills the requirements of a monopoly.

Consider:

--The exit of two major manufactures from multi suppliers. No more end runs for us.

--The lack of competition.

--Now very high cost compare to their domestic market.

--Very few or just one supplier.

Since monopolies/oligopoly inevitability reduce the number of goods sold to drive up profit by driving up demand, I'm going to guess that if you visit any website you will then see a constant "out of stock" for most wheels. Presumably dealers aren't too happy about this since they make money by volume whereby producers make money by driving up demand for each wheel.

 

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Some models can still be found it seems. This is a bit strange as the only KingSong reseller I found in Belgium only has one model in its inventory :/

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That's why i prefer to by on ali, less time waiting and much cheeper.;)

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I never understood how aliexpress sellers can sell to EU without paying VAT and duties. Warehouse in the Netherlands or not, goods still have to be imported.

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1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

I never understood how aliexpress sellers can sell to EU without paying VAT and duties. Warehouse in the Netherlands or not, goods still have to be imported.

This are special transport services by UPS and DHL, which include the customs as a "general flat rate".

That has nothing to do with the netherlands, thats just a corporate partner of aliexpress.

There are for example many chinese warehouses (gearbest/banggood) which use these "flatrate services" to send their stuff over here and you also have to pay no customs...it is just included in the transportation fee, which you can see or is "hiden" in the price of the good.

On our EUC's the most sellers hide the transportation(incl. custom flat) in their wheel price...but some bring them on as transport fee on the ali side and you can see that it goes from 100-300dollar.

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Playing advocate, there's a couple disadvantages that local Dealers have to contend with when competing with Ali: 

  • Taxes & Duty: it's been my experience at the individual package level, the Ali sellers place a negligible declaration value on the product, while legitimate sellers must pay 21% VAT on declared value & an additional 6% duty for importing into the EU. These taxes are factored into the higher sticker price.
  • Airfreight: for almost two years, any large battery device has to be flown in as Dangerous Goods class 9, the commercial rate for this is priced at >$10/kg, compared to $4/kg for regular airfreight from China to most EU destinations. On a Wheel like the KS16S or Tesla, factoring in the dimensional weight, the going commercial rate is >$300. Do some CN sellers mis-classify goods in order to get reduced freight rates to make it more economical? 
  • Parts & Service: the probability of a Wheel requiring warranty servicing within the first year is substantial. Some EU countries, by law, have to provide a two year warranty. The manufacturers that I have worked with make no allowance for on-site warranty parts. The process is that the Dealer must purchase parts themselves, deal with getting defective Wheels repaired & out the door, & then apply for the replacement spare parts in the next order. Turn-around times from order placement to delivery is usually 7-8 weeks, which means that to have an adequate supply of parts can require an investment of tens-of-thousands of dollars for several different models/variants. 
  • Exclusivities: where the seller has to procure through a Distributor, who takes a cut of the margin, it obviously has quite a big impact on the local prices.

No need to play advocate as i wasnt referring to the american market...more to the european, where this gets to a real prob for the customer!

There are SOME exclusice sellers here in europe which are just trying to overcharge just way to hefty and  that was a rant on the Ks policies and did also not go against ALL resellers....

For example you you CAN get an ACM v2s 1300wh here for 1600euro(ali-1200-1300euro), which i found a totally fair price (and this sellers has to pay the same vat/customs and transports).....and then there are some "exclusive" sellers selling the same wheel for 2100euro.

Same warranty...same everything...just having an "exclusive" license for their country! 

(so it is not that only KS has this "exclusive" policies)

I could go on and on with such examples....and the thing is -attention: FOR ME- this gets to a point, when i feel scamed...or overcharged or whatever you will call it. Especially when you know what the real prices are......

 

And also just to play advocate:

my 3 wheels from ali all have been perfectly declared as dangerous goods, also as "overpack"(going over a certain watthour amount) and also not beeing "downpriced"....everything totally correct!

Edited by KingSong69

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I wish I'd seen this thread earlier.  I thought King Song had been mostly removed from Aliexpress and therefore all but eliminated them as an option in my research. 

I'm with KingSong69.  The people in the states don't know how lucky they are with ewheels. 

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55 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

This are special transport services by UPS and DHL, which include the customs as a "general flat rate".

That has nothing to do with the netherlands, thats just a corporate partner of aliexpress.

There are for example many chinese warehouses (gearbest/banggood) which use these "flatrate services" to send their stuff over here and you also have to pay no customs...it is just included in the transportation fee, which you can see or is "hiden" in the price of the good.

On our EUC's the most sellers hide the transportation(incl. custom flat) in their wheel price...but some bring them on as transport fee on the ali side and you can see that it goes from 100-300dollar.

 

Still makes no sense to me.

UPS or DHL or importer or whatever. The EU rules state that products coming from China are taxed at 3-5%, and that VAT should be paid on those goods. How can UPS or DHL cover that for you, or the seller in China? Does that mean that my 775 euro Mten3 already includes this, so if we split this up, for 775 euro I get:

- price of EUC

- shipping

- VAT

- import duties

?

If we do a small calculation (21% VAT, 5% tax) ->

775 euro  = 135 euro VAT

640 euro => 13 euro import tax

627 euro including shipping "net" EUC price.

 

How much is the Mten3 on the Chinese market for local buyers?

 

My local distributor sells the same device for 1142 € VAT inclusive (943 without VAT). I can't imagine that Gotway charges the same price as an aliexpress seller to their distributors/resellers? 

That would mean that I could just buy Mten3 wheels for 775 euro on Aliexpress and put them on my local store and sell them with a 200 euro (25%) margin? Can't imagine they don't buy them directly from Gotway?

All this makes no sense :blink1:

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Thats why flatrates are called flatrates...the try to cover ALL available custom rates and does not mean that the flatrate is the 26% which would be the one aplicable here....

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My kingsong ks-18s was 1000€ cheaper from the rockwheel store then from the official Belgium dealer... It was sent to me and I didn't need to pay additional taxes or transport costs... 

Edited by D i c K (ie)

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Welll...selling on Ali with no warranty (or no reasonable way of providing it) is probably illegal under the 1976 warranty act (for US customers only). Most likely it is but it's not one of those "throw the guy in jail for a felony", which means we're looking at grey-market imports where the buyer and the seller know damn well the risks of buying a considerably cheaper item without a warranty.

In my opinion, transparency and choices serve the consumer best, while opaqueness and monopolies always serve the seller best. That's why you'll clearly see the dealer's buy price, says no dealer, ever.

Honestly, the biggest problem really comes down to consumers not negotiating. You can and should negotiate everything, and having said that I'm quite guilty of not negotiating on even some big-ticket items. Although I'm more of the, "gee, I'm probably going to treat this thing rough, and hope that when it breaks it'll be covered under warranty" customer than the stupidly "pay list price" customer.

Basically, grey markets only exist when the item can be bought for significantly cheaper elsewhere. Make that price gap big enough and of course you'll have people buying elsewhere.

For example, my KS16s was $1053 that came with two chargers but in the USA it was $1400. Yeah, I'll take that risk of no warranty, although in this case I might get warranty service as the person I bought it from had an excellent reputation of warranty work.

Still, all this profit pales in comparison to the pharmacautical industry. I worked with them for a few years and the profits, the pure profits after expenses, is breathtaking. Absolutely bonkers.

Did you know we have computer programs on both sides negotiating drug prices, automatically and with no human intervention? There's many ways to make drug prices opaque but the end result is the customer is a chump. He either pays through insurance or pays himself; he's still a chump. Or, rather, she since most drugs are anti-depressants sold to women (1 out of 5 American women are currently on anti-depressants!).

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19 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Whoops looks like someone squeeled on Daibot as the KS units have been removed from AliExpress.  :rolleyes:

 

It's a dark day if KS wheels are no longer available from China.  Both King Song and Inmotion seem determined to prevent aliexpress sellers from undercutting the market. 

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12 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

 

It's a dark day if KS wheels are no longer available from China.  Both King Song and Inmotion seem determined to prevent aliexpress sellers from undercutting the market. 

Don't despair.  Where there's a will there's a way!   One just needs to purchase them under the radar so to speak... :whistling:

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I'm always happy to save some money, but with more expensive stuff, personally I'll get it at least inside the EU-zone, as usually after shipping, customs duties & VAT, imported goods aren't that much cheaper anymore and in case of trouble, the warranties (likely) work better in western countries ;) But each to their own... Like Jason points out above in this thread, there are lots of costs regarding importing (not to mention rent & utilities etc, if you ran a brick&mortar -store, and probably lots of more "smaller" side-costs that come with running a business). Also, at least an European seller has to deal with much more stricter consumer protection laws, so they may sometimes have to pay for warranty repairs out of their own pocket, if the manufacturer says it's not under warranty or such, and then need to put a little bit more extra on the prices to cover for such cases, and make some profit in the way to support themselves / pay wages if they have workers etc. I seriously doubt selling wheels is a "gold mine" for any of the western sellers, despite the prices being higher than in Asia. They aren't really a "big volume" product that is being sold in large quantities, which also pushes up the price a bit (low sales -> have to charge more per wheel to make a living).

When it comes to "exclusive" -deals, it's a bit different matter... that sounds like a "gray area" monopoly (aren't monopolies usually illegal, unless driven by a government? ;)). Like the whole InMotion/SoloWheel -deal in the US, what happens now if a US customer orders an Inmotion from China? Or if some other seller in US sells "plain" Inmotions without Solowheel -stickers? I undestand they can't sell them as "Solowheels", but the OEM is still Inmotion...

 

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